Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

[he-man]

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. (Mt.5:13, KJV)

You are the salt of the earth. Now, if the salt should be made insipid, with what will it be salted? For nothing does it still avail except to be cast outside, to be trampled by men. (Mt.5:13, CLV)

You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt becomes tasteless, with what will it be salted. For nothing is it potent any longer except, having been cast out, to be trampled upon by men. (Mt.5:13, Berean Literal Bible)

Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have become insipid, wherewith shall it be salted? It is no longer fit for anything but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot by men. (Mt.5:13, Darby Bible Translation)

You are the salt of the earth. If but the salt become tasteless, with what shall it be salted? for nothing is it of service any more, except to be cast out, and trodden under foot by the men. (Mt.5:13, DG)

Can you make it salty again? Of course - with God all things are possible! He can make children of Abraham from stones (Mt.3:9). Everyone will be salted:

REPENT: Revelation 3:18-20 (18) I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. (19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (20) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
every one that thirsteth. The invitation is only to these. waters: of life, Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.; wine: of gladness, Psalms 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.; milk: of nourishment, 1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Kimchi says, after the war of Gog and Magog, shall know that the Lord reigns, and shall come and be desirous of learning his judgments and laws. The word "ho" is expressive of calling, as the Jewish commentators rightly observe; and carries in it an invitation, in which there seems to be a commiseration of the case of the persons called and it is delivered in indefinite terms, and very openly and publicly; and has in it the nature of a Gospel call or invitation, to persons described as "thirsty"; not in natural, much less in a sinful sense, but in a spiritual one; thirsting after forgiveness of sin by the blood of Christ; after justification by his righteousness; after salvation by him; after more knowledge of him, more communion with him, and more conformity to him; and after the milk of the word, and breasts of ordinances; being sensible of sin and danger, and having a spiritual appetite, and a desire after spiritual things. Such as these are persons made alive; come, buy wine and milk, without money, and without price; by wine and milk are meant the Gospel and its doctrines, [GILL]

 

[he-man]

I have a slightly different understanding of aionios as I see our life in Christ to be much more then aionios life. MUCH MORE then aionios life Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures. They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.

`owlam עָלַם H5769 from (H5956) everlasting (63x), of future) i.for ever, always ii.continuous existence, perpetual
iii.everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity Habakkuk 3:6;

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: H5769

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. H5769

 

[Pneuma3]

`owlam עָלַם H5769 from (H5956) everlasting (63x), of future) i.for ever, always ii.continuous existence, perpetual
iii.everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity Habakkuk 3:6;

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: H5769

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. H5769

now try reading that in YLT. Also ask a Jew if olam (it is their language after all) means eternal.

They will tell you it means of unknown duration.
Clements did a good job of showing the different duration in his OP.

 

[he-man]

now try reading that in YLT. Also ask a Jew if olam (it is their language after all) means eternal.

They will tell you it means of unknown duration.
Clements did a good job of showing the different duration in his OP.

Ephesians 4:1-3 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, (2) with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, (3) endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. H5769
eternity is always used with the indefinite article (an eternity). to existence outside of time; existence within time but of an infinite temporal duration is called everlastingness or sempiternity

`owlam עָלַם H5769 from (H5956) everlasting (63x), of future) i.for ever, always ii.continuous existence, perpetual
iii.everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Habakkuk 3:6; עמד וימדד ארץ ראה ויתר גוים ויתפצצו הררי-עד שחו גבעות
עולם הליכות עולם לו

 

[FineLinen]

now try reading that in YLT. Also ask a Jew if olam (it is their language after all) means eternal.

They will tell you it means of unknown duration.
Clements did a good job of showing the different duration in his OP.

My friend Clement always does a good job!

I have a dear friend who has taken 22 years + translating the koine Greek into the Jonathan Mitchell N.T.

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/eternal-eonian-life/

 

[FineLinen]

now try reading that in YLT. Also ask a Jew if olam (it is their language after all) means eternal.

They will tell you it means of unknown duration.
Clements did a good job of showing the different duration in his OP.

 

[FineLinen]

Olam=

https://www.logosapostolic.org/hebrew-word-studies/5769-olam-everlasting.htm

 

[he-man]

(Everyone who repents will be salted and preserved)

Jonathan Mitchell New Testament Mark 9:49, “Indeed, everyone (all humanity) will be salted (seasoned and preserved) in (with; by) fire!”
Katakrima – the result or effect of having been judged against or condemned
© 2010-2018 Jonathan Mitchell New Testament - All Rights
REPENT: Revelation 3:18-20 (18) I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. (19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (20) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth ...and has in it the nature of a Gospel call or invitation, to persons described as "thirsty"; not in natural, much less in a sinful sense, but in a spiritual one; thirsting after forgiveness of sin by the blood of Christ; after justification by his righteousness; after salvation by him; after more knowledge of him, more communion with him, and more conformity to him; and after the milk of the word, and breasts of ordinances; being sensible of sin and danger, and having a spiritual appetite, and a desire after spiritual things. Such as these are persons made alive; come, buy wine and milk, without money, and without price; by wine and milk are meant the Gospel and its doctrines, [GILL]

 

[FineLinen]

(Everyone who repents will be salted and preserved)

My friend: The text does not support your addition of "repents"!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/9-49-compare.html

 

[FineLinen]

It would be cool if UR were true. But it's not. We can hope in the mercy of God, but Scripture is clear that Hell is real, eternal, and painful.

I suggest you examine closely the Hebrew olam, & koine aionios and aidios! There is nothing & I mean nothing that indicates anything but the Aidios God is eternal.

Aidios & pantokratór aligned

http://biblehub.com/greek/3841.htm

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends...."

 

[FineLinen]

The Sheep & The Goats=

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/the-sheep-and-the-goats/

 

[he-man]

My friend: The text does not support your addition of "repents"!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/9-49-compare.html

My friend we use the Bible that says the ungodly shall not stand in the judgement nor ofsinners in the congregation of the righteous Psalms 1:5

 

[FineLinen]

My friend we use the Bible that says the ungodly shall not stand in the judgement nor ofsinners in the congregation of the righteous Psalms 1:5

My friend your Bible does not support the text under consideration with "repent" added to the text! Take your choice of any translation and show us.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/9-49-compare.html

 

[FineLinen]

Prof. Thomas Talbot=

Let’s begin with Matthew 25:46 because so many have appealed to this text in support of the following egregiously fallacious argument: If, according to Jesus, eternal life is literally unending life, then eternal punishment must also be unending torment (or at least unending separation from God). We can illustrate the fallacy in such reasoning, moreover, without entering into any controversy concerning the correct translation of the Greek “aionios” (whether, for example, it should be translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” or simply “age enduring”). So let us simply grant, at least for the sake of argument, whichever of these translations a given person might prefer.

Whatever its correct translation, “aionios” is clearly an adjective and must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies.

For more often than not, the noun helps to determine the precise force of the adjective. As an illustration, set aside the Greek word “aionios” for a moment and consider the English word “everlasting.” I think it safe to say that the basic meaning of this English word is indeed everlasting. So now consider how the precise force of “everlasting” varies depending upon which noun it qualifies. An everlasting struggle would no doubt be a struggle without end, an unending temporal process that never comes to a point of resolution and never gets completed. But an everlasting change, or an everlasting correction, or an everlasting transformation would hardly be an unending temporal process that never gets completed; instead, it would be a temporal process of limited duration, or perhaps simply an instantaneous event, that terminates in an irreversible state. So however popular it might be, the argument that “aionios” must have exactly the same force regardless of which noun it qualifies in Matthew 25:46 is clearly fallacious.

Accordingly, even if we should translate “aionios” with the English word “everlasting,” a lot would still depend upon how we understand the relevant nouns in our text: the nouns “life” (zoe) and “punishment” (kolasis).

Now the kind of life in question, being rightly related to God, is clearly an end in itself, even as the kind of punishment in question seems just as clearly to be a means to an end.

For as one New Testament scholar, William Barclay, has pointed out, “kolasis” “was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.” Barclay also claimed that “in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment”–which is probably a bit of a stretch, since the language of correction and the language of retribution often get mixed together in ordinary language.

But in any event, if “kolasis” does signify punishment of a remedial or a corrective kind, as I think it does in Matthew 25:46, then we can reasonably think of such punishment as everlasting in the sense that its corrective effects literally endure forever. Or, to put it another way: An everlasting correction, whenever successfully completed, would be a temporal process of limited duration that terminates in the irreversible state of being rightly related to God. Certainly nothing in the context of Matthew 25 excludes such an interpretation.

This would not be my preferred interpretation, however, because the English word “everlasting” does not accurately capture the special religious meaning that “aionios” typically has in the New Testament. Here is how I expressed my own understanding of this matter in Universal Salvation? The Current Debate, p. 46:

The first point I would make is that on no occasion of its use in the New Testament does ‘aionios’ refer to a temporal process of unending duration. On a few occasions–as when Paul spoke of a ‘mystery that was kept secret for long ages (chronios aioniois) but is now disclosed’ (Rom. 16:25-26)–the adjective does imply a lengthy period of time.

But on these occasions, it could not possibly mean ‘eternal’ or ‘everlasting’. On other occasions, its use seems roughly Platonic in this sense: Whether God is eternal (that is, timeless, outside of time) in a purely Platonic sense or everlasting in the sense that he endures throughout all of the ages, nothing other than God is eternal in the primary sense (see the reference to ‘the eternal God’ in Rom. 16:26).

The judgements, gifts, and actions of God are eternal in the secondary sense that their causal source lies in the eternal character and purpose God. One common function of an adjective, after all, is to refer back to the causal source of some action or condition.

[Endnote: A selfish act, for example, is one that springs from, or has its causal source in, selfish motives.] When Jude thus cited the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of eternal fire, he was not making a statement about temporal duration at all; in no way was he implying that the fire continues burning today, or even that it continued burning for an age. He was instead giving a theological interpretation in which the fire represented God’s judgement upon the two cities. So the fire was eternal not in the sense that it would burn forever without consuming the cities, but in the sense that, precisely because it was God’s judgement upon these cities and did consume them, it expressed God’s eternal character and eternal purpose in a special way.

So, even as the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah was eternal in the sense that it expressed God’s eternal character and purpose in a special way, the same is true of the fire to which Matthew 25:41 alludes. That fire is eternal in the sense that, despite the harsh sounding language, it expresses God’s eternal love for us in a special, albeit especially severe, way. For as we read in Hebrews 12:29, the eternal God is also a consuming fire, one that will eventually consume all that is false within us. In no other way could God perfect all of us and express his eternal love for all of us. And similarly for eternal punishment: Like any of God’s eternal actions in time, it should be interpreted theologically as a process or event that has its causal source in the eternal God himself. Or, as William Barclay put it, “Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give” (A Spiritual Biography, p. 66).

 

[Pneuma3]

Ephesians 4:1-3 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, (2) with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, (3) endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. H5769
eternity is always used with the indefinite article (an eternity). to existence outside of time; existence within time but of an infinite temporal duration is called everlastingness or sempiternity

`owlam עָלַם H5769 from (H5956) everlasting (63x), of future) i.for ever, always ii.continuous existence, perpetual
iii.everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Habakkuk 3:6; עמד וימדד ארץ ראה ויתר גוים ויתפצצו הררי-עד שחו גבעות
עולם הליכות עולם לו

hogwash.

Did you ask a Jew what olam means? NO
Do you think you know more about the Hebrew language then those whose language it is?

Olam\aion simply deals with an age.
The adjective of the word used then must pertain to and age.

You simply cannot have aion meaning both age and eternal as they are contrary meanings.

 

[Pneuma3]

My friend Clement always does a good job!

I have a dear friend who has taken 22 years + translating the koine Greek into the Jonathan Mitchell N.T.

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/eternal-eonian-life/

I agree, Clements post on aion and it adjective and the history of the word itself are top notch

 

[ClementofA]

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. H5769

A more literal version says:

Micah4:7 And I make her that is limping a remnant, and her that is beyond the border a staunch nation. And Yahweh shall reign over them in mount Zion, henceforth and unto the eon.

https://studybible.info/version/CLV

`owlam עָלַם H5769 from (H5956) everlasting (63x), of future) i.for ever, always ii.continuous existence, perpetual
iii.everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Was Jonah in the sea creature "forever"? Or about 3 days:

Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The earth with her bars closed upon me for ever[OLAM]; Yet hast Thou brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Someone posted this on the thread below:

"There are a number of reasons people believe in everlasting torment in hell. To mention a few:
1. lack of knowing the character of God
2. critical reading failure
3. indoctrination
4. vengeance mentality
5. lack of understanding how to do proper Exegesis"

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ture-supports-it.8072784/page-2#post-72929539

 

[ClementofA]

My friend we use the Bible that says the ungodly shall not stand in the judgement nor ofsinners in the congregation of the righteous Psalms 1:5

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.


Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

 

[he-man]

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

Sorry dude, wrong again:
Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Luke 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and should lock the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
So there is a proper time to seek an entrance into heaven; but there will be a time when it will be too late. At death the time will have passed by, and God will be no longer gracious to the sinner’s soul. [BARNES] and hath shut to the door; the door of mercy and of hope; the door of faith; the preaching of the word, and the administration of ordinances, when these shall be no more: [GILL]
Now His last effort in grace was accomplished, and their house left desolate, until they should repent, and, returning to the Lord, say according to Psalm 111, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Then He would appear, and they should see Him. [DARBY]
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

 

[FineLinen]

Sorry dude, wrong again:

And you who add words to the Scriptures are wrong again!

My friend: The text does not support your addition of "repents"!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/9-49-compare.html

We await your chosen Translation, and wait and wait!

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists and in Him the all ends..."