Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

[FineLinen]

It is wonderful seeing you again Der Alter after all these years! Can you disclose to us what are the qualifications for being a sheep nation (according to the context of Matt.25) and the goat nations of the same?

 

[Der Alte]

begin quote

It is wonderful seeing you again Der Alter after all these years! Can you disclose to us what are the qualifications for being a sheep nation (according to the context of Matt.25) and the goat nations of the same?

end

I was going to say the same thing to you. Except for a brief stint of forced exile. Don't ask. I have been right here. I think Jesus covered the evidence portion very well in Matt 25.
Mar 3:35
(35) For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Luk 12:8
(8) And I say unto you, Every one who shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Joh 3:15
(15) that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Mar 16:16
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

 

[FineLinen]

It is wonderful seeing you again Der Alter after all these years! Can you disclose to us what are the qualifications for being a sheep nation (according to the context of Matt.25) and the goat nations of the same?
I was going to say the same thing to you. Except for a brief stint of forced exile. Don't ask. I have been right here. I think Jesus covered the evidence portion very well in Matt 25.
Mar 3:35
(35) For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Luk 12:8
(8) And I say unto you, Every one who shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Joh 3:15
(15) that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Mar 16:16
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

DerAlter, you must pay better attention. I asked you only to comment on Matt. 25 and what are the qualifications (according to the text of said passage) of being a goat nation and #2 being a sheep nation.

 

[he-man]

None of that addresses the arguments i've made in the OP in regards to the title of this thread:
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)? If you want to discuss other passages of Scriptures, perhaps you should start your own thread on such. Or search the forum where universalists, myself included, have previously addressed them before.

Shame on you! Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. No, not every person will be reconciled to God because of divine mercy and love. The scripture shows that some will suffer eternal extinction!

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41　 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
Mt.25:46[eternal];G166 αἰώνιος; G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol '-as-is From G2849; penal infliction; aiōnios is not limited to one scripture, so I guess you do not use a Bible?
[G166] destruction age-during [YLT] Luke 24:45 – Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

[G166] αἰώνιος aiōnios ahee-o'-nee-os From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. [KJV] Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever.
αἰώνων αἰῶνας αἰῶνος τὸν διʼ αἰῶνος χρόνον for ever, Aesch.; .:—hence its usage in pl., εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας for ever, id=NTest; perpetually; αἰωναῖος -α -ον eterno
αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:—(αἰών II), perpetual, eternal
holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm.62. Ep.Tim. 1.9, Ep.Cor. 4.18; τὸν διʼ αἰ. χρόνον for ever, Id.Ag.554;
G166 αἰώνιος From G165; age; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting,
G165 αἰών (began, without end).
Psa 1:4　 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.　
Psa 1:5　 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.　
Psa 1:6　 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Luk 21:36　 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.　

Heb 6:8　 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.　

Luk 13:9　 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.　
　

 

[Der Alte]

DerAlter, you must pay better attention. I asked you only to comment on Matt. 25 and what are the qualifications (according to the text of said passage) of being a goat nation and #2 being a sheep nation.

I posted the scripture for the requirements to be found a sheep and the actions which demonstrate that one possesses the requirements. I don't believe that there are sheep nations and goat nations, individuals but not nations.

 

[FineLinen]

I posted the scripture for the requirements to be found a sheep and the actions which demonstrate that one possesses the requirements. I don't believe that there are sheep nations and goat nations, individuals but not nations.

I believe you are right regarding the "nations" point! But you have failed to provide the qualifications (according the text of St. Matthew 25 ONLY) of what the Lord Jesus Christ conveys in said chapter for........

#1 Sheep & "everlasting life"

#2 Goats &"everlasting punishment"

 

[ClementofA]

Shame on you!

My answer to your post is the same as before:

None of that directly addresses the arguments i've made in the OP in regards to the title of this thread:

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

If you want to discuss other passages of Scriptures, perhaps you should start your own thread on such. Or search the forum where universalists, myself included, have previously addressed them before.

Bible Threatenings Explained

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[he-man]

My answer to your post is the same as before:

None of that directly addresses the arguments i've made in the OP in regards to the title of this thread:

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

If you want to discuss other passages of Scriptures, perhaps you should start your own thread on such. Or search the forum where universalists, myself included, have previously addressed them before.

Bible Threatenings Explained

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own mind; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
destruction age-during [G166] [YLT]and pay the penalty of everlasting [G166] destruction [DARBY]
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [G166] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46, And these shall go away into everlasting destruction: but the righteous into life eternal.
G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

κόλασιν of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46, al.: pl., Pl.Prt.323e, al., Phld.Ir.p.52 W.
late Old English wilde fyr "destructive fire" From c. 1300 as "Greek fire," also fire rained down from the sky as divine retribution

 

[ClementofA]

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own mind; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
destruction age-during [G166] [YLT]and pay the penalty of everlasting [G166] destruction [DARBY]
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [G166] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46, And these shall go away into everlasting destruction: but the righteous into life eternal.
G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

κόλασιν of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46, al.: pl., Pl.Prt.323e, al., Phld.Ir.p.52 W.
late Old English wilde fyr "destructive fire" From c. 1300 as "Greek fire," also fire rained down from the sky as divine retribution

That doesn't address & refute what the OP says. See also:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/

 

[he-man]

That doesn't address & refute what the OP says. See also:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/

see Emphatic Dialog 1942 "cast off into everlasting destruction" ; Matthew 21:41; Matthew 3:12; matthew 13:48-50

 

[ClementofA]

see Emphatic Dialog 1942 "cast off into everlasting destruction" ; Matthew 21:41; Matthew 3:12; matthew 13:48-50

Sir, can you tell me what the "Emphatic Dialog 1942" is? Or did you mean the New Testament translation called the "Emphatic Diaglott"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphatic_Diaglott

The 1869 version of the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson did not say "everlasting destruction", but "destruction age-lasting":

9 who a just penalty shall pay, destruction age-lasting, from face to the Lord and from the glory of the strength of him

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2930314-what-does-matthew-25-46-mean-3.html#post52193512

 

[he-man]

Sir, can you tell me what the "Emphatic Dialog 1942" is? Or did you mean the New Testament translation called the "Emphatic Diaglott"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphatic_Diaglott

The 1869 version of the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson did not say "everlasting destruction", but "destruction age-lasting":

9 who a just penalty shall pay, destruction age-lasting, from face to the Lord and from the glory of the strength of him

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2930314-what-does-matthew-25-46-mean-3.html#post52193512

Huh?
CYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLICAL, THEOLOGICAL, AND ECCLESIASTICAL LITERATURE.
PREPARED BYTHE REV. JOHN M'CLINTOCK, D.D., AND Dr. JAMES STRONG, S.T.D. Verb: "appease" In GNT: pay for the penalty of a crime or sin" (Luke
18:13; Heb. 2:17)
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (noun): " penalty"; Noun: "a judgment; a condemnation, sentence, penalty, administration or execution of a judgment; a decree"

αἴτιος legal action, a basis for a charge or complaint, grounds for a penalty (death penalty)"
(BDAG3) "he will pay the just penalty [for his crimes or sins]
give due penalty (a value placed upon a crime or misdeed; θάνατος, Noun. Physical: "death, state of being dead, under sentence of death, having grounds for the death penalty" Spiritual: "death" (being totally carnal, without any godly love nor godly activity (Luke 18:13; Heb. 2:17) of the spirit left inside)" A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition by Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich (BDAG3); A
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Thayer; the online Greek-English Lexicon by Henry
George Liddell and Robert Scott; The Analytical Greek Lexicon by Moulton; The Analytical Greek
Lexicon by Mounce; and The New Analytical Greek Lexicon edited by Perschbacher. A few other
sources were also used.
παντας Lk 17: 27, 29. W. σώσaι (like Chαritο 2, 8, 1) Js 4: 12; Ηs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Ηerm. Wr. 4, 7) ψνχήν κ. σώμα ά. έν γεέννη Μt 10: 28; ψνχήν B 20: 1; T. ψνχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cf. Sir 20: 22).
Mk 1: 24; Lk 4: 34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μή έκείνον άπόλλνε do not bring about his ruin Rο 14: 15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20: 4; Εsth 9: 6 ν.1.; 1 Μαcc 2: 37; Jos.,C. Αρ. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίoν Μt 2: 13; Jesus
Is 41: 11) J 3: 16; 17: 12. άπολέσθαι εiς τδν αίώνα perish forever (BDAG3)
"Emphatic Diaglott" 11 *For the grace that BRINGETH-SALVATION appeared to All Men, 39 And they caught him, cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto Other Husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
48 Which, when it was full, drew to shore, and sat gathered the GOOD into but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

3:12 Whose FAN is in his HAND, and he will thoroughly purge his FLOOR, and gather his WHEAT into the garner; but He will burn up the CHAFF with unquenchable Fire.

 

[ClementofA]

παντας Lk 17: 27, 29. W. σώσaι (like Chαritο 2, 8, 1) Js 4: 12; Ηs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death

The Bible never speaks of "eternal death". To the contrary, death is to be abolished (1 Cor.15:26, etc).

3:12 Whose FAN is in his HAND, and he will thoroughly purge his FLOOR, and gather his WHEAT into the garner; but He will burn up the CHAFF with unquenchable Fire.

Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.

Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7).

Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[he-man]

The Bible never speaks of "eternal death". To the contrary, death is to be abolished (1 Cor.15:26, etc).



Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.

Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7).

Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

G2586 καπνός Of uncertain affinity; smoke: - smoke.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall be destroyed [G3754], and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Mal 4:1　 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.　
Mal 4:3　 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.　

2 Samuel 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it
Job 41:20 For out of his nostrils comes smoke, as out of a of a burning furnace with coals of fire
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

Psalms 18:8 In His anger ascended a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth were devoured coals: and they were lit by Him.
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Job 21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away. Psalms 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Psalms 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Hosiah 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Jeremiah 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

 

[ClementofA]

G2586 καπνός Of uncertain affinity; smoke: - smoke.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall be destroyed [G3754], and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Mal 4:1　 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.　
Mal 4:3　 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.　

2 Samuel 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it
Job 41:20 For out of his nostrils comes smoke, as out of a of a burning furnace with coals of fire
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

Psalms 18:8 In His anger ascended a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth were devoured coals: and they were lit by Him.
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Job 21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away. Psalms 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Psalms 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Hosiah 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Jeremiah 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Dozens of verses alleging endless annihilationism shown not to support it:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/annihilation-theory-verses-answered/6273/5

Verses in support of Universalism:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[he-man]

Death is endless annihilation. Acts 3:23. Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed [ἐξολοθρεύω; extirpate] from among the people. destroyed = utterly destroyed. Greek. exolothreuomai. Only here. About eighty times as rendering of karath, cut off. See Gen 17:14. Exo 30:33; Exo 31:14 The quotation is from Deu 18:18, Deu 18:19. Here the Holy Spirit gives the solemn meaning of "I will require it of him", as being destruction from among the people. Compare Mal 4:1.[Bullinger]

And it shall come to pass, that every soul,.... Every person, man or woman: which will not hear that prophet; that is, immediate destruction from God; Deu 18:19 [Gill]

Exodus 31:14; Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be utterly destroyed [G1842 ἐξολοθρεύω] from among his people. [Bullinger]

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; The “eternal” (eonian) fire that burned Sodom 2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall be laid waste; in their own corruption; It was eternal waste; καταφθείρω to spoil entirely, that is, (literally) to destroy; or (figuratively) to deprave: - corrupt, utterly perish. are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and are afore ordained to condemnation and ruin: and this being their case [Gill]

John 5:29 says And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. κρίσις by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment. which will be the second, or eternal death; [Gill]

Psalms 69:28 says Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous Deut.33:29
all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out (Jn.5:28-29) which will be the second, or eternal death; Isaiah 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; they shall be incinerated; they shall not rescue their soul from out of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

Matthew 3:12 Whose winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thourghly cleanse His floor, and gather His wheat into the repository; but He shall incinerate the chaff with inextinguishable fire. κατακαίω to burn down (to the ground), that is, consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).
By "the chaff", are meant wicked and ungodly persons, such as are destitute of the grace of God, whether professors, or profane; being empty, barren, and unfruitful; and so good for nothing but the fire, which therefore "he will burn with unquenchable fire", of divine wrath and vengeance: an allusion to a custom among the Jews, who, when they purified the increase of their unclean fields, gathered it together in an "area" or floor, in the midst of them, and then sifted it with sieves; one sort with two sieves, another with three, that they might thoroughly purge it, and burnt the chaff and stalks (p); see Is 5:24.[Gill]

Psalms 1:5 Therefore the wicked will NOT stand in the day of the judgement, nor sinners in the council of the just.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. [G622] ἀπόλλυμι to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
G2586 καπνός Of uncertain affinity; smoke: - smoke.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall be destroyed [G3754], and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Mal 4:1　 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.　
3　 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.　

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 3:12 Whose winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thourghly cleanse His floor, and gather His wheat into the repository; but He shall incinerate the chaff with inextinguishable fire. κατακαίω to burn down (to the ground), that is, consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).
By "the chaff", are meant wicked and ungodly persons, such as are destitute of the grace of God, whether professors, or profane; being empty, barren, and unfruitful; and so good for nothing but the fire, which therefore "he will burn with unquenchable fire", of divine wrath and vengeance: an allusion to a custom among the Jews, who, when they purified the increase of their unclean fields, gathered it together in an "area" or floor, in the midst of them, and then sifted it with sieves; one sort with two sieves, another with three, that they might thoroughly purge it, and burnt the chaff and stalks (p); see Is 5:24.[Gill]

That ignores what i posted to you the other day re that verse:

Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.

Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7).

Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[he-man]

That ignores what i posted to you the other day re that verse:

Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Their worm - This figure is taken from Isaiah 66:24. See the notes at that passage. In describing the great prosperity. of the kingdom of the Messiah, Isaiah says that the people of God “shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against God.” Their enemies would be overcome. They would be slain. The people of God would triumph. The figure is taken from heaps of the dead slain in battle; and the prophet says that the number would be so great that their worm - the worm feeding on the dead - would not die, would live long - as long as there were carcasses to be devoured; and that the fire which was used to burn the bodies of the dead would continue long to burn, and would not be extinguished until they were consumed.

The figure, therefore, denotes great misery, and certain and terrible destruction. In these verses it is applied to the state beyond the grave, and is intended to denote that the destruction of the wicked will be awful, widespread, and eternal.
but the smoke of their torments shall ascend for ever and ever;

Salt have lost its savour - That is, if it has become tasteless, or has lost its preserving properties. The salt used in this country is a chemical compound - chloride of sodium - and if the saltness were lost, or it were to lose its savor, there would be nothing remaining. I saw large quantities of it literally thrown into the street, to be trodden underfoot by people and beasts. It was ‘good for nothing.’ Indeed, it is a well-known fact that the salt of this country, when in contact with the ground, or exposed to rain and sun, does become insipid and useless. There is no place about the house, yard, or garden where it can be tolerated. No man will allow it to be thrown on to his field, and the only place for it is the street, and there it is cast to be trodden underfoot of men.” Matthew 5:13 [BARNES]
it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot. as their usefulness is gone, so, generally speaking, it is never retrieved; they are cast out of the churches of Christ, and are treated with contempt by everyone.(k) T. Bab. Betzah, fol. 14. 1. [GILL]
is fit for no place but the streets (see Thomson’s The Land and the Book, Lond., 1869, p. 381).[Bullinger]

Mal 4:1　 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.　
3　 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
　
By "the chaff", are meant wicked and ungodly persons, such as are destitute of the grace of God, whether professors, or profane; being empty, barren, and unfruitful; and so good for nothing but the fire, which therefore "he will burn with unquenchable fire", of divine wrath and vengeance.

G2586 καπνός Of uncertain affinity; smoke: - smoke.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall be destroyed [G3754], and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalms 1:5 Therefore the wicked will NOT stand in the day of the judgement, nor sinners in the council of the just.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. [G622] ἀπόλλυμι to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[Pneuma3]

I have a slightly different understanding of aionios as I see our life in Christ to be much more then aionios life.


MUCH MORE then aionios life



Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.



They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.



But we need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.



Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.



The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.



Habakkuk 3:6

6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.



The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.



Now the only way for those who believe olam means eternal can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence.





Psalm 41:13

13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.



Psalm 90:1-2

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.



Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.

If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.



So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.



But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.

I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.



Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.



Psalm 90:1-2

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.



We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.



The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.



The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.



Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.



Hebrews 7:16

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.



Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction

From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end



Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?



What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.



Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.



1 Peter 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,



Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable

Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end



Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial

Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end



Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?



These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.



If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.



Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.



Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.



Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.

 

[ClementofA]

Salt have lost its savour - That is, if it has become tasteless, or has lost its preserving properties. The salt used in this country is a chemical compound - chloride of sodium - and if the saltness were lost, or it were to lose its savor, there would be nothing remaining. I saw large quantities of it literally thrown into the street, to be trodden underfoot by people and beasts. It was ‘good for nothing.’ Indeed, it is a well-known fact that the salt of this country, when in contact with the ground, or exposed to rain and sun, does become insipid and useless. There is no place about the house, yard, or garden where it can be tolerated. No man will allow it to be thrown on to his field, and the only place for it is the street, and there it is cast to be trodden underfoot of men.” Matthew 5:13 [BARNES]
it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot. as their usefulness is gone, so, generally speaking, it is never retrieved; they are cast out of the churches of Christ, and are treated with contempt by everyone.(k) T. Bab. Betzah, fol. 14. 1. [GILL]
is fit for no place but the streets (see Thomson’s The Land and the Book, Lond., 1869, p. 381).[Bullinger]

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. (Mt.5:13, KJV)

You are the salt of the earth. Now, if the salt should be made insipid, with what will it be salted? For nothing does it still avail except to be cast outside, to be trampled by men. (Mt.5:13, CLV)

You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt becomes tasteless, with what will it be salted. For nothing is it potent any longer except, having been cast out, to be trampled upon by men. (Mt.5:13, Berean Literal Bible)

Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have become insipid, wherewith shall it be salted? It is no longer fit for anything but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot by men. (Mt.5:13, Darby Bible Translation)

You are the salt of the earth. If but the salt become tasteless, with what shall it be salted? for nothing is it of service any more, except to be cast out, and trodden under foot by the men. (Mt.5:13, DG)

Can you make it salty again? Of course - with God all things are possible! He can make children of Abraham from stones (Mt.3:9). Everyone will be salted:

Mk.9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

Mt.19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. (Mt.5:13b, KJV)
For nothing does it still avail except to be cast outside, to be trampled by men. (Mt.5:13b, CLV)
For nothing is it potent any longer except, having been cast out, to be trampled upon by men. (Mt.5:13b, Berean Literal Bible)
It is no longer fit for anything but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot by men. (Mt.5:13b, Darby Bible Translation)
for nothing is it of service any more, except to be cast out, and trodden under foot by the men. (Mt.5:13, DG)

Does Matthew 5:13b mean that such ones can never become salty again? That they can never be saved? That they will suffer endless annihilation or never-ending tortures? No, no & no. Triple no.

The Greek word for "thenceforth", "any more", "any longer", "still" in the above translations of Mt.5:13b is ETI meaning "still, yet": http://biblehub.com/greek/2089.htm

It is used in Acts 20:25 where Paul tells other believers that they would "not still" (OUKETI) see his face. Did Paul mean they would never see his face again, not even in heaven? Of course not. Neither does the same word in Mt.5:13b mean those who lose their saltiness can never become salty again. But as long as they are "still" unsalty, they are of no service to God or men & will be trampled upon, i.e. will suffer as anyone who doesn't have the peace of God in their hearts.

The word ETI also appears in Rev.20:3 where it speaks of Satan put in the Abyss so that he should not deceive the nations "any longer". Does this mean he will never deceive them again? No, the same chapter, in verse 7, says he deceives again! Neither does the same word in Mt.5:13b mean those who lose their saltiness can never become salty again. But as long as they are "still" unsalty, they are of no service to God or men & will be trampled upon, i.e. will suffer as anyone who doesn't have the peace of God in their hearts.

If Love Omnipotent, i.e. God, had meant that those who had lost their saltiness could "never" become salty again or "never" be saved, there was a Greek word for that, OUDEPOTE: http://biblehub.com/greek/3763.htm. Since Jesus should have used this word if He meant such ones could "never" be saved, and He didn't, therefore His belief is that such - can - be saved.

As further proof of that, let us consider whether or not a person who loses his saltiness - i.e. backslides, denies Christ, apostasizes, etc - can never be saved or become salty again. Peter denied Christ three times, but later became filled with the Spirit on the day of Pentecost, so he wasn't lost forever for denying His Lord. Backsliders have lost their saltiness, yet the Savior of the world says: "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him" (Hosea 14:4). Here we see those who have lost their saltiness, apostates from the faith & others, whom the Lord Almighty has not given up on, but is correcting for their own good (i.e. their salvation):

1 Tim.1:19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some, having cast away, have caused a shipwreck concerning the faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, that they may be disciplined not to blaspheme.

Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backsliders. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God. Truly in vain is salvation bored for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel. —Jeremiah 3:22, 23.

"Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place" (Revelation 2:4,5).

"When he came to his senses, he said, "How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you" (Luke 15:17,18).

Conclusion: Matthew 5:13 fails as a "proof text" against the Bible truth of Universalism.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html