Infallibility of Scriptures Proves Gay is Sin according to the Scriptures

[MercyBurst]

Web pages are not bibles. These are bibles. Choose one or supply your own:


Italiano (IT)Conferenza Episcopale ItalianaText (with Apocrypha)
La Nuova DiodatiText
La Parola è VitaText (NT)
日本語 (JA)Japanese Ebook BiblePDF
한국어 (KO)Korean BibleText
Korean Living New TestamentPDF (NT)
Kurdî (KU)Kurdish-Sorani Ebook BiblePDF (NT)
Latina (LA)Biblia Sacra VulgataText (with Apocrypha)
Dholuo (LUO)Luo New TestamentPDF (NT)
Māori (MI)Maori BibleText
Malayalam (ML)Malayalam Ebook BiblePDF (NT)
Plautdietsch (NDS)Reimer 2001Text (NT)
Audio (NT)
Nederlands (NL)Het BoekText
Norsk (NO)Det Norsk Bibelselskap 1930Text
Levande BibelnText (NT)
Ndebele (NR)Ndebele Ebook BiblePDF (NT)
Português (PT)João Ferreira de Almeida AtualizadaText
Nova Versão InternacionalPDF
O LivroText
Română (RO)RomanianText (NT)
Русский (RU)Russian Ebook BiblePDF (NT)
Russian Synodal VersionText
Slovo ZhiznyText (NT)
Slovenčina (SK)1979 Slovak BibleAudio (NT)
Nádej pre kazdéhoText (NT)
Shqip (SQ)Albanian BibleText
Svenska (SV)Levande BibelnText
Svenska 1917Text
Kiswahili (SW)Swahili New TestamentText (NT)
ภาษาไทย (TH)Thai Contemporary BiblePDF
Tagalog (TL)Ang Salita ng DiyosText (NT)
Tiêng Viêt (VI)1934 Vietnamese BibleText
汉语 (ZH)Chinese Ebook BiblePDF
Chinese Union Version (Simplified)Text
Chinese Union Version (Traditional)Text

Dave, you can not tell us the scriptures back your position by sending us to a web page somewhere. A web page is not scripture. Straw man fragments simply will NOT do.

You must provide the scriptural text from cover to cover that backs your position.

 

[davedjy]

Web pages are not bibles. These are bibles. Choose one or supply your own:


Italiano (IT)Conferenza Episcopale ItalianaText (with Apocrypha)
La Nuova DiodatiText
La Parola è VitaText (NT)
日本語 (JA)Japanese Ebook BiblePDF
한국어 (KO)Korean BibleText
Korean Living New TestamentPDF (NT)
Kurdî (KU)Kurdish-Sorani Ebook BiblePDF (NT)
Latina (LA)Biblia Sacra VulgataText (with Apocrypha)
Dholuo (LUO)Luo New TestamentPDF (NT)
Māori (MI)Maori BibleText
Malayalam (ML)Malayalam Ebook BiblePDF (NT)
Plautdietsch (NDS)Reimer 2001Text (NT)
Audio (NT)
Nederlands (NL)Het BoekText
Norsk (NO)Det Norsk Bibelselskap 1930Text
Levande BibelnText (NT)
Ndebele (NR)Ndebele Ebook BiblePDF (NT)
Português (PT)João Ferreira de Almeida AtualizadaText
Nova Versão InternacionalPDF
O LivroText
Română (RO)RomanianText (NT)
Русский (RU)Russian Ebook BiblePDF (NT)
Russian Synodal VersionText
Slovo ZhiznyText (NT)
Slovenčina (SK)1979 Slovak BibleAudio (NT)
Nádej pre kazdéhoText (NT)
Shqip (SQ)Albanian BibleText
Svenska (SV)Levande BibelnText
Svenska 1917Text
Kiswahili (SW)Swahili New TestamentText (NT)
ภาษาไทย (TH)Thai Contemporary BiblePDF
Tagalog (TL)Ang Salita ng DiyosText (NT)
Tiêng Viêt (VI)1934 Vietnamese BibleText
汉语 (ZH)Chinese Ebook BiblePDF
Chinese Union Version (Simplified)Text
Chinese Union Version (Traditional)Text

Dave, you can not tell us the scriptures back your position by sending us to a web page somewhere. A web page is not scripture. Straw man fragments simply will NOT do.

You must provide the scriptural text from cover to cover that backs your position.

Bible TRANSLATIONS DO NOT EQUATE SCRIPTURE!!!!


***Get to know the facts about homosexuality:

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm



***Don't believe lies founded on false traditions:

http://gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/gay_and_christian_yes.htm



***Learn the truth about Leviticus and Temple idolatry and prostitution:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The Mystery.htm



***Find a GBLT Affirming Church in your area:

http://gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/united_states.htm


FACT: No one has the right to point a finger, calling you a sinner.

Romans 3:23 "ALL have sinned (missed the mark) and come short of the glory of God."

FACT: The only ingredient necessary for any person - homosexual or heterosexual - to have perfect peace with God, is faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:1 "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."


FACT: The person who condemns you based on your innate sexuality confesses his or her ignorance of the Biblical Doctrine of Salvation.
Ephesians 2: 8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."


FACT: Your sexual constitution has nothing to do with salvation.
Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

 

[Bianca87]

saying that the Bible read literally does not condemn homosexuality has never been the point i was trying to make, but if you ask me to, i'll present a problem

9-10Non sapete, forse, che nel regno di Dio non c'è posto per gli ingiusti? Non v'illudete: non saranno certo gli immorali a far parte del regno di Dio, e nemmeno gli idolatri, né gli adulteri, né i travestiti, né gli omosessuali, né i ladri, né gli avari, né gli ubriaconi, né quelli che oltraggiano il prossimo, e neppure gli imbroglioni!

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

i'm bilingual and reading this passage in two different languages made me clearly see the role of translation here, there are lots of words that have a completely different meaning and this happens with almost any random passage i pick. what does that tell you?
i mean, yes we do read the Bible, but we should always remember that we are humans who read the Bible, a little humility would be nice...

 

[savedandhappy1]

of course I did. The article rips apart the proposal because of lack of collected data and actually has some positive reaction to Simon leVay's work due to his attempt to collect data.

Didn't really read it as ripping apart, but I guess we might define ripping differently.

So if they would have collected the data it would have been proven or disproven? Why then wasn't the data collected?

On some thread I posted not positive reaction to LeVey's work. In fact it stated that no one has been able to duplicate his work. It also showed where his own study found that the reverse of what he was saying was found to be true in a, if remembering right, good number of his subjects.

I can't remember which thread it is on but will try and find it if you would like to read it. It's post #27 of this thread if you didn't get a chance to read it.

 

[Brieuse]

Didn't really read it as ripping apart, but I guess we might define ripping differently.

So if they would have collected the data it would have been proven or disproven? Why then wasn't the data collected?

On some thread I posted not positive reaction to LeVey's work. In fact it stated that no one has been able to duplicate his work. It also showed where his own study found that the reverse of what he was saying was found to be true in a, if remembering right, good number of his subjects.

I can't remember which thread it is on but will try and find it if you would like to read it. It's post #27 of this thread if you didn't get a chance to read it.

You're quite welcome to. But Simon LeVay himself said at the summary of his research that more research still needs to be done. And the APA said that too, in Mercy's link.

With regards to Mercy's link, they ripped it apart because the suggestion from those scientists was just that, a suggestion. No research to back them up, just a theory.

 

[united4Peace]

Hypothesis is correct so far:

I believe in inerrancy. I believe gay is sin.

Dave believes bible is in error. Dave believes gay is not sin.

Just because others interpret the Bible different doesnt mean they actually believe the Bible is in error.

My veiw of History may be totally different than your view of history yet it doesnt make eithor or wrong..yet or veiws of an event that we may have both been at may be different (this goes for the authors of the Bible).

Just becauase one takes the bible in Metaphores does not mean one is saying that the Bible is in error...
"The doughnut I ate the other day was as huge as a truck tire" does not make it literally so...but maybe someone may read into that and take it as so and think Im a big eater

As for your OP...
your right...there is no gay affirming Bible...and there is no Bible that says homosexuality is a sin either.
Sexuality is up to God and the individual...its not in the Bible...the Bible says nothing pro or con about it either way.

 

[MercyBurst]

Just because others interpret the Bible different doesnt mean they actually believe the Bible is in error.

People can be in error, and this does not change the hypothesis.

My veiw of History may be totally different than your view of history yet it doesnt make eithor or wrong..yet or veiws of an event that we may have both been at may be different (this goes for the authors of the Bible).

Human history doesn't change God. So is the bible His divine revelation or not?

Just becauase one takes the bible in Metaphores does not mean one is saying that the Bible is in error... "The doughnut I ate the other day was as huge as a truck tire" does not make it literally so...but maybe someone may read into that and take it as so and think Im a big eater

Since when has sin ever been a metaphor in the bible? Don't you beleive God wants us to know right from wrong?

As for your OP...
your right...there is no gay affirming Bible...and there is no Bible that says homosexuality is a sin either.

Well you must not be looking at one. Since you say NO BIBLE says it is a sin, I'll pick a couple of verses from a few of them:

The NIV says they aren't going to heaven:

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

The NAS says anyone that preaches gay is ok is going to hell:

1 Timothy 1:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)

New American Standard Bible (NASB)



9realizing the fact that (A)law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (B)rebellious, for the (C)ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (D)profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10and (E)immoral men and (F)homosexuals and (G)kidnappers and (H)liars and (I)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (J)sound teaching, 11according to (K)the glorious gospel of (L)the blessed God, with which I have been (M)entrusted.

Amplified bible:


1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,

Here's the Contemporary English version:

1. 1 Corinthians 6:9
   Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual
   1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 6 (Whole Chapter)
2. 1 Timothy 1:10
   The Law was written for people who are sexual perverts or who live as homosexuals or are kidnappers or liars or won't tell the truth in court. It is for anything else that opposes the correct teaching
   1 Timothy 1:9-11 (in Context) 1 Timothy 1 (Whole Chapter)

Sexuality is up to God and the individual...its not in the Bible...the Bible says nothing pro or con about it either way.

You are a lying.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-4
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;


Do you believe the bible is in error or not? We can look at several more versions if you like. They all say the same thing. Just read it.

 

[davedjy]

FACT: No one has the right to point a finger, calling you a sinner.

Romans 3:23 "ALL have sinned (missed the mark) and come short of the glory of God."

FACT: The only ingredient necessary for any person - homosexual or heterosexual - to have perfect peace with God, is faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:1 "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."


FACT: The person who condemns you based on your innate sexuality confesses his or her ignorance of the Biblical Doctrine of Salvation.
Ephesians 2: 8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."


FACT: Your sexual constitution has nothing to do with salvation.
Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

 

[MercyBurst]

Show me an authorized version of bible text that is translated, instead of scabbing the scriptures.

 

[davedjy]

Scriptural text is just Modern day English translations from the Biased translators.

Proof from the TRANSLATORS THEMSELF LIES RIGHT HERE:

1. The confusion of the translators
Translators were extremely confused as to what "arsenokoitai" meant. I have a real problem with translators who insist on translating the obscure word, "arsenokoitai", as "homosexuals" since there is such a lack of lexical data supporting that translation. Besides the word "homosexual" did not exist until the 20th century!
Before going any further let's look at what some scholars had to say:

"I believe it [arsenokoitai] explicitly relates to homosexuality." -- A. Mohler

"It [malakoi] can have a meaning that's not carnal. But the way it's used -- it's embedded in the same context with adultery -- it's pretty clear what the meaning is...A hallmark of Evangelicals is that we take a literal, normal, face-value interpretation of the Bible. Some people attempt to keep some form of Christianity and hold on to homosexuality, too. It leads to strange interpretations of the Bible."-- T. Crater

"In short, it is unclear whether the issue [the meaning of arsenokoitai and malakoi] is homosexuality alone..." -- Walter Wink

John Boswell ["Christianity, Soical Tolerance, and Homosexuality", pg. 334], who was a Greek & Hebrew language scholar and Historian from Yale University, felt that arsenokoitai may have meant "male prostitutes capable of the active role with either men or women"

"One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians 6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior." -- Victor Paul Furnish, a Professor of New Testament from Perkins School of Theology, Dallas.


http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

 

[davedjy]

Show me an authorized version of bible text that is translated, instead of scabbing the scriptures.

You think the scriptures are the English translations, when they were WRITTEN IN HEBREW AND GREEK, NOT ENGLISH.

 

[MercyBurst]

It's right here:

FACT: There is not one condemnation of homosexuality as one’s innate sexual constitution in the Scriptures. In fact, any reputable Bible scholar will tell you that when the original manuscripts were written in the languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, in none of these languages did the word "homosexual," or any viable translation of the word, exist.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

You think the scriptures are the English translations, when they were WRITTEN IN HEBREW AND GREEK, NOT ENGLISH.

Like DUH.

They are also written in aramaic, and translated back to Hebrew.

Now show me a translation IN ANY LANGUAGE, that shows you are correct.

 

[davedjy]

Show me an authorized version of bible text that is translated, instead of scabbing the scriptures.

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Cor 6:9, KJV

 

[davedjy]

Here is your proof of the Greek word, if you don't accept it, then that is your business:


4. The meaning of "arsenokoites"
"In short: the allegation that the New Testament condemns homosexuality is not just poor but lazy and inexcusable scholarship. An attempt by some scholars to interpret I Cor 6:9 by taking malakos to mean the passive partner and arsenokoites the active partner is based on circular reasoning. The meaning of arsenokoites is problematic. There is no evidence that malakos was ever considered as a technical term for a passive partner. (There are other terms for passive and active partner in Greek. They never appear in the NT). Malakos' general meaning of effeminate is independent of sexual position or object. To define malakos arsenokoites is to define something already clear by something that is obscure." --- Deirdre Good, General Theological Seminary.

This is a mess, as is illustrated by the variety of translations of the word. So how do we find out what Paul meant? There are two ways to figure out what a word means. One is the etymological approach, which is a false method. The meaning of a word is not determined by its derivation, but by its usage. The meanings of words can change dramatically over short periods of time (even periods as short as 50 years!). Some contend that Paul coined the word from the Septuagint. I will discuss that later.
So the best thing to do would be to examine the uses of the word. It is found 73 times outside of Paul's letter.
In almost every one of these occurrences the word appears in a vice list so it is impossible to tell what they mean. The few times it does not appear in a vice list give us a better insight.
In the Apology of Arisites 13, Fragmenta 12,9-13.5.4 "arsenokoitai" refers to the sins of the Greek Gods. In the context it appears to be referring to the time Zeus abducted and raped a boy named Ganymede.
In Apology of Aristides, written 100 years after 1Corinthians, the word appears to be used for molestation of boys by men. Interestingly enough, Luther translated the word as "Knabenschaender" which meant "child abusers".

Another occurrence is in an ancient legend where the Snake in the Garden of Eden becomes a satanic being named Naas. Naas uses several tactics (including sexually pleasuring both Adam and Eve) to gain power over and destroy Adam and Eve. Naas is said to have "had Adam like a boy". Naas' sins were called arsenokoitai. This suggests arsenoskoitai refers to a male using superior power or position to take sexual advantage of another.

There is simply no justification for translating arsenoskoitai as "homosexuals". Jeramy Townsley sums it up well by saying:
"... neither arsenokoitai nor malakoi are justifiably translated as "any homosexual behavior" (or more specifically, the active and passive partners in anal homosexual intercourse, as is the common interpration by contemporary Christian anti-gay writers) in any other Greek literature, which makes one question why they are translated that way here."

When early, Greek-speaking homophobic Christians (John Chrysostom and Clemet of Alexandria) condemned homosexuality, they did not use arsenokoitai, even when discussing Cor 6:9 and Tim. 1:10. Arguments from silence are generally weak, but had the word meant homosexuals, Chrysostom and Clemet would of most likely condemned homosexuals when they commented on Cor. 6:9 or Tim. 1:10. But they did not. This combined with the above discussion of the occurrences of the word, I feel, provide some serious problems for traditionalists.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

 

[MercyBurst]

Produce a bible that we can read and believe.

 

[MercyBurst]

You don't even read english, how can you read greek?

 

[davedjy]

Prodcue a biible that we can read and believe.

This isn't a debate point, and it doesn't need to be in a Bible. I have surpassed your language comprehension skills with the original Hebrew and Greek words.

 

[MercyBurst]

This isn't a debate point, and it doesn't need to be in a Bible. I have surpassed your language comprehension skills with the original Hebrew and Greek words.

Then you translate a bible version, since none of your lazy butt gay-budies can get off their can and do it.

Then we can believe.

Until you provide us a complete bible that you have personally translated from cover to cover, you are just scabbing off of someone else's bible version, and putting patches over their work. You're only doing this for your own personal agenda, rather than scriptural truth.

 

[MercyBurst]

My bible doesn't come with footnotes.

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
spake Matt 22:43

The hypothesis still stands: you DO NOT believe the scriptures are infallible, hence you DO NOT believe gay behavior is sin.

I don't care about your presentations of the greek and the Hebrew and the aramaiic, which I have already investigated myself, and I have access to greek scholars that have studied the language in divinity school for credit unlike yourself.

The scholars that translated the bible in all the languages know it much better than you do.

So show me a VERSION that "gets it right" according to you.

 

[MercyBurst]

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Cor 6:9, KJV

ok, you choose the KJV and it says in Lev 20:13:


Leviticus 20:13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It says a man having sex with another man deserves the death penalty under the law.

Grace does not change what sin is. This is a capital offense. It is not prawns and mixed fabrics. Consider that rape is not a capital offense under the OT law.

But gay is included with murder, perjury, idolatry, theft, and all the "worst class" of sins. It is worse even than rape.