Infallibility of Scriptures Proves Gay is Sin according to the Scriptures

[davedjy]

ok, you choose the KJV and it says in Lev 20:13:


Leviticus 20:13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It says a man having sex with another man deserves the death penalty under the law.

Grace does not change what sin is. This is a capital offense. It is not prawns and mixed fabrics. Consider that rape is not a capital offense under the OT law.

But gay is included with murder, perjury, idolatry, theft, and all the "worst class" of sins. It is worse even than rape.

That is a CEREMONIAL IDOLATRY VIOLATION
Abomination = tow'ebah = ritual/ceremonial violation

WE DO NOT FOLLOW THE CEREMONIAL/RITUAL LAWS

READ AGAIN


5. Temple Prostitution in Canaan (Leviticus 18:22)
Temple prostitution played also a vital role in the Canaanite religion of worshipping Molech in the OT. In the Canaanite religion, the fertility of the land depended upon Molech having sex with the love goddess Astoroth. The Canaanites, imitated this through prostitution in their worship rituals. The prostitute would play the part of Astoroth, while the customer/worshipper played the part of Molech.

However, the prostitutes playing Astoroth's role were not females, but instead were males... they would dress up as women, wearing elaborate Goddess vestments and Goddess masks on their faces. The customers/ worshippers were also males- Those males would lie with a male as if a female.

It seems almost too simple. For those who wish for further proof that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 forbid lying with one of Molech's temple prostitutes I have put together the following arguments:

A. CONEXT: Leviticus 18:2-5 says that practices following, including obviously the "homosexual" acts in 18:22, were part of "the doings... of Canaan". Also see 19:26-29.

So the "homosexual" acts in Leviticus 18:22. 20:13 were part of Canaanite rituals. Funny thing is, the only form of homosexuality used by the Canaanites in their rituals was that of transvestitic temple prostitution.

The end of chapter 20 says that those practices were labeled as "abomination" because they were the idolatrous practices of the Canaanites.

B. THE DEATH PENALTY AND DEUTERONOMY: If you make a list of crimes in Leviticus in which the punishment is death, you will notice that all the death penalty crimes are repeated once again in the Old Testament, especially in Deuteronomy.

But homosexuality is not repeated there (nor anywhere else in the Old Testament), even though ALL of the other death penalty crimes are. However, Deuteronomy does mention male temple prostitution, and calls it toevah.

Here is the list:

Leviticus 20:3-5: Child sacrifice. This is repeated in 2Kings 16:3 and Deuteronomy 12:31.

Leviticus 20:6: Mediums and wizards. This is included in Deuteronomy's 'no other gods', 5:7 et al.

Leviticus 20:9: Cursing one's parents. This is repeated in Deuteronomy 27:16.

Leviticus 20:10: Adultery. Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:18, 22:22.

Leviticus 20:11: Incest with father's wife. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:20.

Leviticus 20:12 Incest with child's spouse. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:23.

Leviticus 20:13: Allegedly homosexuality in general. Not repeated anywhere else in the Old Testament.

Leviticus 20:14: Incest: both daughter and mother. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:23.

Leviticus 20:15: Man committing bestiality. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:21.

Leviticus 20:16: woman commiting bestiality. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:21

"Seven out of nine are repeated precisely in Deuteronomy - down to the details of which degree of consanguinity is involved in acts of incest. 20:12 (incest with a daughter-in-law) is not repeated precisely, but the same degree of consanguinity is forbidden in Deut. 20:23. Necromancy is not specifically forbidden again in Deuteronomy, but it is attested in a number of places outside of Leviticus 18/20, notably in I Samuel 14:32-35, which refers to the death penalty associated with the practice." -- Royce Beuhler

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

 

[MercyBurst]

That is a CEREMONIAL IDOLATRY VIOLATION
Abomination = tow'ebah = ritual/ceremonial violation

The sin is having sex with a man the same as with a woman. Sex with a woman in the same fashion does not carry this penalty. Sex in the same fashion with a woman is not an abomination. Hence, the man on man sex is in a class of it's own, and punishable by death.

My KJV bible doesn't come with footnotes, so I'll just delete the big scab you tried to add on about temple worship. It's not there on Lev 20:13, or the Lord would have explained it.

The bible was written for anyone to understand. The meaning is plain. I'm glad God thought enough of us to do it that way.

ok next....

 

[united4Peace]

Wow Mercy...
The God of the OT also killed innocent children...
Can't tell me that all the first borns were evil and deserved death...

The God of the OT killed many people...many innocent people...

The people who wrote the books of the OT wrote the books with how they percieved God...
Just like if you sat down and wrote...you would write differently than I as God would move you differently than She would me....
God inspires me differently than She does you...God moves in me differently than in you...
therefore we are going to have different views on God...and those people in the OT had a different view on God than I do...
I prefer the view Jesus taught...about a loving God...about a forgiving God...not one that goes around killing

 

[savedandhappy1]

Wow Mercy...
The God of the OT also killed innocent children...
Can't tell me that all the first borns were evil and deserved death...

The God of the OT killed many people...many innocent people...

The people who wrote the books of the OT wrote the books with how they percieved God...
Just like if you sat down and wrote...you would write differently than I as God would move you differently than She would me....
God inspires me differently than She does you...God moves in me differently than in you...
therefore we are going to have different views on God...and those people in the OT had a different view on God than I do...
I prefer the view Jesus taught...about a loving God...about a forgiving God...not one that goes around killing

Jesus said I and the Father are one, remember?

God is a forgiving if we ask for forgiveness, but He doesn't forgive and forget what we haven't repented of.

 

[united4Peace]

Jesus said I and the Father are one, remember?

God is a forgiving if we ask for forgiveness, but He doesn't forgive and forget what we haven't repented of.

I disagree with you there...

Not that Jesus and God are one(Jesus and God are definetly one)...
but that God doesnt forgive unless asked...(I believe there are many ways one repents-I even believe that those who dont believe in God are forgiven as they feel sorrow for things they know are wrong)

There is John 3: 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Right there that tells me that God loves us all so much that God doesnt hang things over our heads "until we repent"...that God knows we feel guilt and loves us that much that God forgives right away....

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Isaiah 45: 23-24I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,

‘ Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.


I believe God forgives regardless...
besides...I think people repent in their own way...
God knows what ones heart is feeling

 

[ReformedChapin]

Wow Mercy...
The God of the OT also killed innocent children...
Can't tell me that all the first borns were evil and deserved death...

No one is innocent. God can have mercy on who will want to have mercy. Or do you think anyone is born rightous?

The God of the OT killed many people...many innocent people...

The people who wrote the books of the OT wrote the books with how they percieved God...
Just like if you sat down and wrote...you would write differently than I as God would move you differently than She would me....
God inspires me differently than She does you...God moves in me differently than in you...
therefore we are going to have different views on God...and those people in the OT had a different view on God than I do...
I prefer the view Jesus taught...about a loving God...about a forgiving God...not one that goes around killing

Nope, the God of the OT is the same as the NT. The difference is that God decided to have mercy on others. Liberals just only like the hippie Jesus not the rightous God who ask for us what has to be done.

 

[davedjy]

Jesus said I and the Father are one, remember?

God is a forgiving if we ask for forgiveness, but He doesn't forgive and forget what we haven't repented of.

That isn't true, you aren't saved by repentance!
Are you saved by works or by grace?

Ephesians 2: 8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."

Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

 

[davedjy]

The sin is having sex with a man the same as with a woman. Sex with a woman in the same fashion does not carry this penalty. Sex in the same fashion with a woman is not an abomination. Hence, the man on man sex is in a class of it's own, and punishable by death.

My KJV bible doesn't come with footnotes, so I'll just delete the big scab you tried to add on about temple worship. It's not there on Lev 20:13, or the Lord would have explained it.

The bible was written for anyone to understand. The meaning is plain. I'm glad God thought enough of us to do it that way.

ok next....

It was temple prostitution/idolatry.

AGAIN, read YOUR BIBLE. Exodus 21:10 makes it clear that polgamy was freely acceptable back in those times. A single, loving, monogamous same sex relationship IS NOT condemned in Scriptures of the ORIGINAL Hebrew and Greek language.


***Get to know the facts about homosexuality:

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm



***Don't believe lies founded on false traditions:

http://gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/gay_and_christian_yes.htm



***Learn the truth about Leviticus and Temple idolatry and prostitution:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The Mystery.htm



***Most Forum members in the homosexuality section are gay...find a GBLT Affirming Church in your area:

http://gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/united_states.htm


FACT: No one has the right to point a finger, calling you a sinner.

Romans 3:23 "ALL have sinned (missed the mark) and come short of the glory of God."

FACT: The only ingredient necessary for any person - homosexual or heterosexual - to have perfect peace with God, is faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:1 "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."


FACT: The person who condemns you based on your innate sexuality confesses his or her ignorance of the Biblical Doctrine of Salvation.
Ephesians 2: 8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."


FACT: Your sexual constitution has nothing to do with salvation.
Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

 

[ReformedChapin]

That isn't true, you aren't saved by repentance!
Are you saved by works or by grace?

Ephesians 2: 8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."

Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Wow your misunderstanding of the bible reflects more and more. How can you confess Christ is Lord over your life if you haven't truthfully repented?

Repentece comes with God's grace and confession of faith.

 

[davedjy]

Wow your misunderstanding of the bible reflects more and more. How can you confess Christ is Lord over your life if you haven't truthfully repented?

Repentece comes with God's grace and confession of faith.

YOU have yet to prove I have anything to repent of!

***Most Forum members in the homosexuality section are gay...find a GBLT Affirming Church in your area:

http://gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/united_states.htm

 

[davedjy]

MCC Churches are 300 alone!

http://mccla.org/New%20Site%20Files/Copy%20of%20MCCLA/html/about.html


Homosexuality and the Bible according to the MCC:

http://mccla.org/New%20Site%20Files/Copy%20of%20MCCLA/html/worship.html

 

[ReformedChapin]

YOU have yet to prove I have anything to repent of!

***Most Forum members in the homosexuality section are gay...find a GBLT Affirming Church in your area:

http://gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/united_states.htm

You have yet to prove that homosexuliaty is allowable.

And you must repent of your sin...Man do you even read the bible?


“Repent, 1 for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
Mat 4:17From that time Jesus began to preach this message: 1 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
Mat 11:20Then Jesus began to criticize openly the cities 1 in which he had done many of his miracles, because they did not repent.
Mar 1:15He 1 said, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God 2 is near. Repent and believe the gospel!”

 

[ReformedChapin]

MCC Churches are 300 alone!

http://mccla.org/New Site Files/Copy of MCCLA/html/about.html


Homosexuality and the Bible according to the MCC:

http://mccla.org/New Site Files/Copy of MCCLA/html/worship.html

wow more useless garbage ..awesome.

 

[davedjy]

wow more useless garbage ..awesome.

You haven't disproved any of it.
Your debate points are useless.

"you haven't proved it's allowable", is not a debate point.

"Am I allowed to drive a car?"

"The Bible says Polygamy was allowed, but I can't have sex with a man, because my God is so arbitrary".

oh please...

 

[davedjy]

"useless garbage" is the best debate point I have ever seen used against me. Or perhaps it's the same old tired link from the same old doctrine Talmud by what's his face...

 

[ReformedChapin]

"useless garbage" is the best debate point I have ever seen used against me. Or perhaps it's the same old tired link from the same old doctrine Talmud by what's his face...

I have refuted every single one of your "proofs." You have yet to provide any realiable studies all you do is post liberal websites with un supported facts.

I don't neet to use anything against you, you yourself show that you have no understanding of church history or reliable scientific studies...much less biblical hermanutics.

 

[davedjy]

I have refuted every single one of your "proofs." You have yet to provide any realiable studies all you do is post liberal websites with un supported facts.

I don't neet to use anything against you, you yourself show that you have no understanding of church history or reliable scientific studies...much less biblical hermanutics.

I use ACTUAL Scholars for my findings.

Did you forget this website? or maybe it was the countless I quote, that have ACTUAL scholars.

1. The confusion of the translators
Translators were extremely confused as to what "arsenokoitai" meant. I have a real problem with translators who insist on translating the obscure word, "arsenokoitai", as "homosexuals" since there is such a lack of lexical data supporting that translation. Besides the word "homosexual" did not exist until the 20th century!
Before going any further let's look at what some scholars had to say:

"I believe it [arsenokoitai] explicitly relates to homosexuality." -- A. Mohler

"It [malakoi] can have a meaning that's not carnal. But the way it's used -- it's embedded in the same context with adultery -- it's pretty clear what the meaning is...A hallmark of Evangelicals is that we take a literal, normal, face-value interpretation of the Bible. Some people attempt to keep some form of Christianity and hold on to homosexuality, too. It leads to strange interpretations of the Bible."-- T. Crater

"In short, it is unclear whether the issue [the meaning of arsenokoitai and malakoi] is homosexuality alone..." -- Walter Wink

John Boswell ["Christianity, Soical Tolerance, and Homosexuality", pg. 334], who was a Greek & Hebrew language scholar and Historian from Yale University, felt that arsenokoitai may have meant "male prostitutes capable of the active role with either men or women"

"One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians 6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior." -- Victor Paul Furnish, a Professor of New Testament from Perkins School of Theology, Dallas.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

 

[davedjy]

More scholars...


2. Call-boys
"I sat amazed as I heard the Bible being invoked in ways that were wholly inappropriate to any canons of biblical scholarship. Perhaps something snapped in me...for better or worse I decided somebody needed to provide resources that would give both clarity and honesty." -- Robbin Scroggs.
Robbin Scroggs feels that arsenokoitai refers to a man who uses the services of "call-boys", and that malakoi refers to those "call-boys". In his book, "The New Testament and Homosexuality", Scroggs writes, "If the malakos points to the effeminate call-boy, then the arsenokoites in this context must be the active partner who keeps the malakos as a 'mistress' or who hires him on occasion to satisfy his sexual desires. No more than molakos is to be equated with the youth in general, the eromenos, can arsenokoites be equated with the adult in general, the erastes" (pg. 108).

The Jerusalem Bible, German 1968, agrees with Scroggs, translating arsenokoitai as "child molesters". Of course, fundamentalists ignore that bible translation [as well as Phillips (1958), Jerusalem Bible (French -1955), The Latin Vulgate, (405), etc., of which reject the homosexual interpretation] while accepting the NIV (which is unclear since it has the translation "homosexual offenders").
Note: The Dutch NBG translation of 1951 uses the word "schandjongens" ("maleprostitutes" in English) for malakoi and "knapenschenders" ("boy-molesters" in English) for arsenokotai.

Rembert Truluck is a Doctor of Theology from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY, 1968. He was a Southern Baptist Pastor from 1953 to 1973, and a Professor of Religion at Baptist College of Charleston, SC, from1973 to 1981. Truluck is well learned in Hebrew and Greek. In his article "The Six Bible Passages Used To Condemn Homosexuals", Dr. Truluck writes, "The Greek word [arsenokoitai] translated "homosexual" does not mean homosexual! The word is obscure and uncertain."
Dr. Truluck personally wrote a letter to me, in responce to mine, in which he writes: ".... [arsenokoitai] was never translated as "homosexual" until 1946, and was a bad mistake then."
Jeramy Townsley says that "It seems clear that arsenokoites [arsenokoitai] does not refer to mutually respecting gay relationships..." Learned in Greek and Hebrew, Jeramy received a MA. in philosophy/theology from Lincoln Christian College Seminary.
".... The term appears only in contexts dealing with greed, prostitution, adultery, idolatry, and lack of self control. Although it is a rare term, its use is probably best connected with those male prostitutes who are clearly condemned in the Old Testament, and who would fit in with those temptations which drew Paul's audience toward idolatry and greed, whether they were tempted to become such prostitutes or take advantage of their services.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

 

[Brieuse]

I have refuted every single one of your "proofs." You have yet to provide any realiable studies all you do is post liberal websites with un supported facts.

I don't neet to use anything against you, you yourself show that you have no understanding of church history or reliable scientific studies...much less biblical hermanutics.

To define proof as only something that agrees with your viewpoint, and only comes from sources that agree with you does not make that proof any less.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]To define proof as only something that agrees with your viewpoint, and only comes from sources that agree with you does not make that proof any less.[/SIZE]

My definition is credible, verifiable, historical, and/or grammatical or lexical evidence. Links to or quotes from Andrea Nonnymus at homosexuals-я-us.com® which provides no such evidence is proof of nothing but frantic desperation.