But Is It Truth?

[Christsfreeservant]

If you're advocating listening to modern prophets, then I warn you, they are a dime a dozen - meaning all self-proclaimed prophets and self-proclaimed apostles are false. But the reason why people want to believe in prophets who "have a word from God" for them is because they are lazy and impatient, and want a shortcut to God's will for them without the blood, sweat, and tears of learning the Bible and what God says is His will there.

You quote some verses (which I agree with) and make some statements (which I agree with, since God does speak to individuals), but what is really your point? Are you saying that God speaks new things to people, or are you saying God speaks His word out of the Bible to the spirit of individuals? I agree with the latter and disagree with the former. Certainly people are illuminated by God's word, as in Heb. 4:12. People can obtain wisdom from knowledge of scripture, aiding them in making right choices. But in regard to doctrine and theology, the canon is closed, and there is "nothing new under the sun" in that regard.

In regard to your objection to MacArthur's statement, it's a matter of semantics and point of view. You admitted that the Spirit will not say anything that contradicts scripture. So then, in a sense, aren't you essentially in agreement with MacArthur?

The Holy Spirit

There are some people, some who preach the Scriptures, who believe that the only way that we can hear from God is through the written word of God in the 66 books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation). And so if you were to say, “God said to me,” or “God showed me,” or “God led me to,” they would...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Christsfreeservant]

Hello again Sue, et al, in case you do not know, the Holy Scriptures are one of the principal things that are at the very heart of John MacArthur's ministry and teachings, as is the absolute necessity of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, especially in regard to our both knowing and understanding the truth of the Scriptures from His Divine POV.

MacArthur wrote & preached extensively on topics like, Sola Scriptura, the Canon of Scripture, how to interpret the Scriptures, the Sufficiency of the Scriptures, etc., etc., so finding out what he believes and teaches about the Scriptures and/or about the Holy Spirit and His work in our lives in regard to the Scriptures, should not be difficult (save the time factor, of course, because there is SO much material from him to go through).

--David

The Holy Spirit

There are some people, some who preach the Scriptures, who believe that the only way that we can hear from God is through the written word of God in the 66 books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation). And so if you were to say, “God said to me,” or “God showed me,” or “God led me to,” they would...

www.christianforums.com

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It is not an either/or choice. The written word is not the exclusion of the voice of the Holy Spirit, and the voice of the Holy Spirit is not to the exclusion of the written word. They go hand in hand, and the Spirit's voice should not be contradictory to the teachings of the Scriptures or it is not the Spirit's voice we are hearing. But God supplied us with the Holy Spirit, and God told us that we should be hearing the Spirit's voice and that we are to be led by the Spirit of God or we are not children of God. This is how we know what our calling from God is to be, and what he would have us write about, and to whom he would have us to speak, and what, and when, and where God would have us to live or work, etc.

One can be easily deceived thinking the Holy Spirit is speaking and it may not be so. Also, the Holy Spirit did already bring the words, the teachings, of Jesus to light through His instruments, the Apostles, and these teaching were already recorded as Scripture.

 

[tdidymas]

Where it says, apostles and prophets are no more, and we need only evangelists, pastors, and teachers?

11 He gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints, for the work of service, and for the building up of the body of Christ, 13 until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, into a complete man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so we may no longer be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the trickery of men, by craftiness with deceitful scheming. 15 But, speaking the truth in love, we may grow up in all things into Him, who is the head, Christ Himself, 16 from whom the whole body is joined together and connected by every joint and ligament, as every part effectively does its work and grows, building itself up in love.

The canon has been closed since near the end of the 1st Century. The only people who thought it wasn't started cults and all the councils condemned their teachings as unbiblical. So if you're looking for false apostles and prophets who lead people astray by deception, go look in the NAR and other groups or denominations who accept self-proclaimed apostles and prophets.

So to answer your question, don't take some scripture out of context and read into it what you want. The Bible also says, "[the household of God is] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Eph. 2:20)

So unless you don't believe that the corner stone and the foundation are permanent, and you think all that has to be built again, then go ahead and pretend that there are apostles and prophets who bring new and fresh revelations from God. The reality is that those offices disappeared in the 1st Century after the last apostle John died, and none of the Early Church Fathers claimed to be one. Not even the writer of Hebrews claimed to be one, but talked of "those who were eyewitnesses" in 2:3-4.

Therefore, anyone who claims to be an apostle or prophet (and the implication is that they are in those offices equal to the original apostles and prophets), they are arrogant, and their "faith" is suspect. In fact, anyone claiming they speak for the Lord apart from what the canon of scripture says, they are taking the Lord's name in vain (misusing His name), because the Lord did not speak to them. Key phrase is "apart from the canon of scripture." If they only speak scripture, then they aren't bringing any new revelations, and their "office" is mere pretense.

But if they teach anything that is contrary to correct interpretation of scripture, then they are a false prophet or apostle. Such people are clearly warned about in the NT. I can tell you by experience there are plenty of them.

 

[tdidymas]

The Holy Spirit

There are some people, some who preach the Scriptures, who believe that the only way that we can hear from God is through the written word of God in the 66 books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation). And so if you were to say, “God said to me,” or “God showed me,” or “God led me to,” they would...

www.christianforums.com

Your writing in that link is a strawman argument. No one is saying that "God said..." has to be an exact quote from the Bible or else... The fact is, the canon of scripture is closed, so there cannot be any new revelation, and anyone who claims there is revelation of God which teaches new doctrine is a false teacher. For example, if you sincerely thought that the Holy Spirit told you that Jesus suffered in hell in the 3 days He was dead, and that His suffering was necessary to win atonement for mankind, and you wrote that in a song or poem, and published it because you were convinced that came from the Holy Spirit, then I would call you a false teacher and warn people about your "ministry." But there really are some people who are teaching that very thing, claiming they got that from the Holy Spirit. There are far too many false teachers who say things contrary to sound doctrine, claiming they got a revelation from God.

But anyone who teaches anything that is fully in line with the teachings of scripture is teaching what God actually said. And such people are not trying to reveal new doctrine or any such thing. There is a big difference between a true teacher from the Lord who teaches what God already said in the closed canon, and someone who loves to impress people with "new revelation."

I'll tell you my own experience with the voice of God, as one example - the day I was converted, I was of a state of mind that I would never have become a Christian. But I heard God say to me, "this is your last call." Instantly I had a fear of God I never had before, and so I was converted. But this was not new revelation. I heard God speak, but He did not speak any new doctrine or "fresh revelation." He simply spoke directly to me what He had already said generally in the canon of scripture, which I later found out.

So then, you didn't really answer my question - are you saying that when the Spirit speaks to you it's in conformance with what the Bible teaches? (if so, then you are agreeing with MacArthur). Or are you saying you can get new revelation and thus new doctrine?

 

[NBB]

The canon has been closed since near the end of the 1st Century. The only people who thought it wasn't started cults and all the councils condemned their teachings as unbiblical. So if you're looking for false apostles and prophets who lead people astray by deception, go look in the NAR and other groups or denominations who accept self-proclaimed apostles and prophets.

So to answer your question, don't take some scripture out of context and read into it what you want. The Bible also says, "[the household of God is] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Eph. 2:20)

So unless you don't believe that the corner stone and the foundation are permanent, and you think all that has to be built again, then go ahead and pretend that there are apostles and prophets who bring new and fresh revelations from God. The reality is that those offices disappeared in the 1st Century after the last apostle John died, and none of the Early Church Fathers claimed to be one. Not even the writer of Hebrews claimed to be one, but talked of "those who were eyewitnesses" in 2:3-4.

Therefore, anyone who claims to be an apostle or prophet (and the implication is that they are in those offices equal to the original apostles and prophets), they are arrogant, and their "faith" is suspect. In fact, anyone claiming they speak for the Lord apart from what the canon of scripture says, they are taking the Lord's name in vain (misusing His name), because the Lord did not speak to them. Key phrase is "apart from the canon of scripture." If they only speak scripture, then they aren't bringing any new revelations, and their "office" is mere pretense.

But if they teach anything that is contrary to correct interpretation of scripture, then they are a false prophet or apostle. Such people are clearly warned about in the NT. I can tell you by experience there are plenty of them.

That a super cessationist view, i disagree because God keeps filling people with the HS, and he keep doing things

 

[tdidymas]

That a super cessationist view, i disagree because God keeps filling people with the HS, and he keep doing things

You're exaggerating with that label, so I take it that my response upset your apple cart. But being filled with the Spirit does not constitute an office of apostle or prophet. Neither the apostles nor any prophet claimed that God wanted everyone to be apostles and prophets, such that they should seek to be one, or seek to set one up. Yet, your response implies that you are a follower of those who seek to set up people in the offices of apostles and prophets.

So then, are you a follower of the NAR? If so, then I challenge you to seriously read materials by respected leaders who clarify what the scripture actually teaches, and who are exposing the errors of the NAR.

 

[NBB]

You're exaggerating with that label, so I take it that my response upset your apple cart. But being filled with the Spirit does not constitute an office of apostle or prophet. Neither the apostles nor any prophet claimed that God wanted everyone to be apostles and prophets, such that they should seek to be one, or seek to set one up. Yet, your response implies that you are a follower of those who seek to set up people in the offices of apostles and prophets.

So then, are you a follower of the NAR? If so, then I challenge you to seriously read materials by respected leaders who clarify what the scripture actually teaches, and who are exposing the errors of the NAR.

Idk what NAR is, no God puts apostles etc, people can't make calling for themselves if God doesn't want.
Ok, anyway have a nice day.

 

[tdidymas]

Idk what NAR is, no God puts apostles etc, people can't make calling for themselves if God doesn't want.
Ok, anyway have a nice day.

The NAR is the "New Apostolic Reformation" set up by C. Peter Wagner and consists of (supposedly) hundreds of apostles and prophets associated with the Vineyard (John Wimber), Kansas City "International House of Prayer" (Mike Bickle), Morningstar Church (Rick Joyner), and many other churches who claim apostolic authority. They (among other Pentecostal and Charismatic groups) make many "prophecies" that don't come to pass, and therefore they prove themselves to be false prophets.

Anyone who claims to speak for God what is not contained in the closed canon is a false prophet or false teacher which are clearly warned about in the NT, because God did not speak to them. When a person says "thus says the Lord" when the Lord did not speak is misusing the name of the Lord, and are thus taking the Lord's name in vain. Anyone who stands in a public setting and does anything purporting to be God speaking or the Holy Spirit speaking when God is not speaking is taking the Lord's name in vain, because by their actions they are misusing the name of the Lord.

People who do these things rely on other peoples' ignorance. They are blind guides, and anyone who follows them will fall into a pit.

So then, no, God is not "putting" apostles in place, because the foundation has already been laid, and there is no more foundation that is needed. What the churches need is pastors who actually have a Biblical worldview (and real knowledge of the Bible) and who speak the truth from the scripture, and not the performance of theatrics to draw people who lust after sensational events and hype because the gospel doesn't satisfy them.
Do you agree?