I'm perplexed -- & aggrivated

[porterross]

This is a conservative forum, Rauffenburg. As long as you post liberal views, the posts will be reported.

 

[Nadiine]

This is a conservative forum, Rauffenburg. As long as you post liberal views, the posts will be reported.

ditto sister



I ask that these liberal posts be removed

 

[Rauffenburg]

Ah I see. In that case I will remove my posts. Sorry for inconvenience.

 

[GQ Chris]

Ah I see. In that case I will remove my posts. Sorry for inconvenience.

No worries man.

 

[Nadiine]

removed

wow, I didn't expect that.

thanks

 

[Rauffenburg]

It seems like you have the right to preach to the choir here. Even though I may disagree with your positions in many ways, I respect that.

 

[Nadiine]

It seems like you have the right to preach to the choir here. Even though I may disagree with your positions in many ways, I respect that.

I'm not preaching to the choir when I chat & fellowhship about issues that concern us which this thread turned out to be.

If that's what it is, then I can reply that :WWMC has the same right to preach to the choir about what we disagree with them on.

touche' =0)

 

[synger]

It is an interesting thread you pointed to, Nadiine. Thank you. The original question was about visiting a nude beach with his family... and it went on to a discussion of nudity in general, nude art, and from there to pornography. Most of the discussion circles around the dictates of modesty in various cultures, where art becomes porn, and how Christians should respond to these issues, if at all.

 

[Chococat]

I know we're conservatives here and I'm preaching
to the choir...
but I cannot believe my eyes when I read posts by people
with Christian icons supporting pornography as moral!

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49203705&postcount=331

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49203294&postcount=326

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49203676&postcount=330

I find this deeply disturbing

It's sad I agree but alas it does not surprise me at all. It seems just about anything goes with many professing Christians today. I mean if a Christian will condone the killing of the unborn they'll condone anything.

 

[Nadiine]

It is an interesting thread you pointed to, Nadiine. Thank you. The original question was about visiting a nude beach with his family... and it went on to a discussion of nudity in general, nude art, and from there to pornography. Most of the discussion circles around the dictates of modesty in various cultures, where art becomes porn, and how Christians should respond to these issues, if at all.

well, it seems that to some or many who claim Christ these days, porn is modest if you aren't "sinning" in picking a married person to have sex with.



I give up

 

[synger]

well, it seems that to some or many who claim Christ these days, porn is modest if you aren't "sinning" in picking a married person to have sex with.

I think you're right, Nadiine. There are a lot of Christians who believe that, so long as you are not hurting someone else, looking at or watching pornography is not sin. They may be unaware of (or refuse to acknowledge) how such watching can adversely impact their own sexual thoughts and impulses, nor how supporting the business of pornography supports promiscuity and prostitution. They may very well think it's "not so bad" as other sins. And God may very well be working with them on those issues.

That does not make them less Christian, nor Christ's sacrifice less effective for them.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I've seen how pornography can destroy a family. Up close and personal. By all outward appearances a relative and her husband had a perfect marriage. Five (yeah FIVE) beautiful young kids. Seemingly out of the blue she announced they were getting a divorce. Reason: Hubby couldn't stop watching porn and it ruined their intimacy. (That and marijuana use).

 

[Nadiine]

I think you're right, Nadiine. There are a lot of Christians who believe that, so long as you are not hurting someone else, looking at or watching pornography is not sin. They may be unaware of (or refuse to acknowledge) how such watching can adversely impact their own sexual thoughts and impulses, nor how supporting the business of pornography supports promiscuity and prostitution. They may very well think it's "not so bad" as other sins. And God may very well be working with them on those issues.

That does not make them less Christian, nor Christ's sacrifice less effective for them.

I disagree with you Synger.

Lack of conviction of sin is a clear indicator.

If God isn't convicting them that watching 2 people fornicate while people film them for a public audience....
well...... nuff said.

The issue is NOT if WE find harm in something, the issue is what God commands; period. Despite what we see, think or feel.

We'd also see no harm in eating fruit off a tree would we? But look what happened when 2 people decided it was harmless to disobey God.

It's not up to us to decide what harms, it's up to us to OBEY GOD or not.
We all know full well that porno is wrong, people are in open rebellion & denial.
Nothing more.

I'm called to read fruit - and if fruit of people who claim God is promoting pornography as "good", I assure you, I'm not the one in need of glasses.

 

[Zecryphon]

I disagree with you Synger.

Nadiine, what's it gonna take for you to learn to stop disagreeing with us Lutherans?

Lack of conviction of sin is a clear indicator.

If God isn't convicting them that watching 2 people fornicate while people film them for a public audience....
well...... nuff said.

Clear indicator of what? That they're not a Christian anymore? Or that they never were? It's a clear indicator that they're a sinner in need of God's grace and Christ's forgiveness. People who are addicted to porn or who don't feel guilty about watching it for whatever reason, can still be saved. They may need to lose everything first, or bottom out or get burned out on it before they see it. But every person I've talked to who has this addiction has seen it. Now they may not see it on your time table, but so what? That's not what matters here.

The issue is NOT if WE find harm in something, the issue is what God commands; period. Despite what we see, think or feel.

We'd also see no harm in eating fruit off a tree would we? But look what happened when 2 people decided it was harmless to disobey God.

It's not up to us to decide what harms, it's up to us to OBEY GOD or not.
We all know full well that porno is wrong, people are in open rebellion & denial.
Nothing more.

I'm called to read fruit - and if fruit of people who claim God is promoting pornography as "good", I assure you, I'm not the one in need of glasses.

I agree with all of that, and I agree that you are called to be a fruit inspector. But you seem to be going beyond that and saying that certain fruits are not part of God's orchard because of this one particular blemish.

 

[CyberPaladin]

Nadiine maybe you should take a break from the board for awhile it just seems like your letting this board get to you in a way it shouldn't.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine, what's it gonna take for you to learn to stop disagreeing with us Lutherans?



Clear indicator of what? That they're not a Christian anymore? Or that they never were? It's a clear indicator that they're a sinner in need of God's grace and Christ's forgiveness. People who are addicted to porn or who don't feel guilty about watching it for whatever reason, can still be saved. They may need to lose everything first, or bottom out or get burned out on it before they see it. But every person I've talked to who has this addiction has seen it. Now they may not see it on your time table, but so what? That's not what matters here.



I agree with all of that, and I agree that you are called to be a fruit inspector. But you seem to be going beyond that and saying that certain fruits are not part of God's orchard because of this one particular blemish.

well then maybe this is a reason I won't be a Lutheran???

People with addictions have addictions - it's quite another thing entirely to be saying there's NOTHING wrong with porno.
I have had my fair share of addictions in my life & weaknesses on top of those. & even before accepting Christ I knew they were wrong.
And after I accepted Christ I knew they were when I would still commit them. But it's another thing entirely to claim to be a Christian & liberally refuse not to admit watching 2 people fornicate in front of an audience for sexual pleasure isn't sinful.
God is somehow pleased with that?

What's next on the list of immoral goodies we all can sink ourselves into?
If we're no different than the world than what good are we if we're going to claim Jesus Christ?

I think we're far too apathetic on sin anymore.
In Mat. 7:23 Jesus is clearly telling people who claim His name that He doesn't know them & calls them "workers of lawlessness".
These are your people living in willful sin who are making a regular practice of iniquity.

And I'll also say that there are more fruits I observe than just one. & no I'm not the salvation police, but I'm real concerned when I keep seeing people make all kinds of loophole excuses for Christians who have false teachings and rotten fruit lately and pat people on the back in their sins as if they're just Christians who God hasn't 'enlightened' yet.

& I'm assuming that if somebody grabs a Christian Icon, it means we've all read God's
book & saw their name in it too?

If the people in the church don't know porno is sinful and the church winks at it & makes excuses, how do we ever HOPE to claim it's wrong or harmful in the secular world?
& no that's not the open door for the lectures on "we don't need to be telling the world they sin" crap either.
If the church (ie those who claim Christ) is promoting PORNO as fine, then we can't hardly hope to shine the light about Christ to a "dark" world when we're already dark ourselves.

It's a joke.

& judgment IS to be made on those inside the church, not outside. So yes I have every right to speak out on this becuz of their own claims of Christianity.

 

[synger]

I must not have made myself clear. I apologize for that. I was not saying that we are not called to read fruit. I was saying that the fruit itself shows how much they are allowing God to work in their lives... but it has nothing to do with their salvation in the first place. There is nothing I can DO (or NOT do) that will change the fact that Christ saved me. I might be able to completely deny it and turn from him, but the fact of His sacrifice remains.

I see nothing in Scripture that says that Christians are better people because they are saved. I see a great deal that calls us to respond to God's grace with love and obedience... but it's not a pre-condition for salvation. It is, as you say, a fruit.

There are millions of Christians throughout history who did things that were completely natural in their time and culture that we see as sinful now. Slavery is the big one that comes to mind (and not just American slavery, but ancient and medieval slavery as well as modern). Infanticide (exposure) was common in medieval times, even in Christian Europe. Those are the "biggies". The more common sins have been and always will be among us -- adultery, theft, lying, idolatry, etc.

I firmly believe that God works on us where we are. While both my gluttony and my lying may be sinful (not to mention the more shadowy sins that I don't like to think about), I am currently more willing to allow Him to work with me on the lying... and in that, He brings me closer to His image, and more willing in time to work on the other, more shadowed areas of my sinful life.

But even when I was in the midst of a very sinful life, actively doing many of the things that are explicitly preached against in almost every church around the world, I relied upon the sure promise and grace of Christ Jesus. I was a Christian... even though a VERY poor example of one. It is only by His grace that I've come this far, and only by His grace that I will continue to grow and conform to His image.

And that's what I see when I see Christians who say that this or that is not sinful when I can so clearly (now) see that it is. They are misguided, and defensive, and hurting. But they are no less Christians for their sin. And I will continue to try to explain to them why they are mistaken, and I will continue to pray that the Spirit will convict and change them even as He has so many others.

Their Christianity is not in question, in my mind. That relies only on Christ, and Him sacrificed. They may turn from him and deny him, but they cannot change the fact of his sacrifice.

Their Christian witness may indeed be in question, but that is a different problem and needs a different discussion.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine maybe you should take a break from the board for awhile it just seems like your letting this board get to you in a way it shouldn't.

actually CP, I think people aren't letting things get to them that maybe they should.

I'm serious.
It isn't me with the problem on this. We're called to HATE evil, not smile & fold our hands at false teaching and promotion of evil.
I think on this forum that people are SO used to seeing sin promotion, that it's turned to apathy anymore.

Yes I'm upset, but I think I should be at what I read around here sometimes.
I think some zeal for the Lord is healthy as a matter of fact.

But thanks for your concern

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine maybe you should take a break from the board for awhile it just seems like your letting this board get to you in a way it shouldn't.

& one last thing about this before I get busy on my other project...

ALOT of Christians have left this board for just this issue. They left seeking boards that didn't drop their standards on what Christianity meant.

I'm not the only one who's complained about this and asked who exactly CF is claiming is Christian. What's next?
When I read the ethics board, I might as well be on a secular forum site.

That does disturb me greatly - it obviously disturbed alot of people who have left.

 

[Zecryphon]

well then maybe this is a reason I won't be a Lutheran???

Oh, Nadiine. We ALL know that you're in the Lutheran closet. We just have to get you to come out.

People with addictions have addictions - it's quite another thing entirely to be saying there's NOTHING wrong with porno.

I agree, but people who are addicted to something will say there's nothing wrong with whatever they're addicted to.

I have had my fair share of addictions in my life & weaknesses on top of those. & even before accepting Christ I knew they were wrong.
And after I accepted Christ I knew they were when I would still commit them. But it's another thing entirely to claim to be a Christian & liberally refuse not to admit watching 2 people fornicate in front of an audience for sexual pleasure isn't sinful.
God is somehow pleased with that?

Never said He was.

What's next on the list of immoral goodies we all can sink ourselves into?
If we're no different than the world than what good are we if we're going to claim Jesus Christ?

You're not good. Didn't you read your Bible? It's not about you. The difference between you and the world is that you're saved. But what do you do good deeds for? To be seen by the world so that they will know you are good? C'mon. You know better than that.

I think we're far too apathetic on sin anymore.
In Mat. 7:23 Jesus is clearly telling people who claim His name that He doesn't know them & calls them "workers of lawlessness".
These are your people living in willful sin who are making a regular practice of iniquity.

Why are the people in that thread now my problem? They are walking their walk as they see fit. That's a big part of the problem here. Now granted, their walk is not in line with what scripture mandates, but that doesn't make them my responsibility Nadiine. It doesn't make them yours either. It is not your job to convict them of sin, stop stepping on the Holy Spirit's toes. You've done what you've been called to do, you've pointed them to scriptural evidence that proves that they are not walking in the light. Now it's up to the Holy Spirit to convict them of the truth of your statements. I know you're praying for them, so I won't remind you that you can be doing that as well.

And I'll also say that there are more fruits I observe than just one. & no I'm not the salvation police, but I'm real concerned when I keep seeing people make all kinds of loophole excuses for Christians who have false teachings and rotten fruit lately and pat people on the back in their sins as if they're just Christians who God hasn't 'enlightened' yet.

Who's done that?

& I'm assuming that if somebody grabs a Christian Icon, it means we've all read God's
book & saw their name in it too?

Huh? No one has read the Lamb's Book of Life yet. All grabbing a Christian icon around this place means is that you know how to work a mouse.

If the people in the church don't know porno is sinful and the church winks at it & makes excuses, how do we ever HOPE to claim it's wrong or harmful in the secular world?
& no that's not the open door for the lectures on "we don't need to be telling the world they sin" crap either.
If the church (ie those who claim Christ) is promoting PORNO as fine, then we can't hardly hope to shine the light about Christ to a "dark" world when we're already dark ourselves.

It's a joke.

I don't see the church as a whole saying porno is fine. I see a few Christians saying that. But that doesn't mean that their view is the official church view.

& judgment IS to be made on those inside the church, not outside. So yes I have every right to speak out on this becuz of their own claims of Christianity.

Knock yourself out, but be very careful you don't cross that line and say "you're not a Christian because of (insert sin here).