I must not have made myself clear. I apologize for that. I was not saying that we are not called to read fruit. I was saying that the fruit itself shows how much they are allowing God to work in their lives... but it has nothing to do with their salvation in the first place. There is nothing I can DO (or NOT do) that will change the fact that Christ saved me. I might be able to completely deny it and turn from him, but the fact of His sacrifice remains.
How much to we
allow God to work in our lives? In my experience, that's kinda more up to Him than us. We can be disobedient, sure. But even then His Spirit works to convict us, even if we go kicking and screaming. We wouldn't even want Him to work in our lives at all if it weren't for the leading if His Spirit. If His Spirit is not in us it's not even a matter of allowing or not. And when we
embrace sin that is evidence of something very, very serious.
When John talks about those who claim to be Christians, but love the darkness, he is talking about unbelievers in the church, not believers. Believers have the conviction of the Holy Spirit. We know we sin and we admit it. And while we are still sinners, wrestling with the flesh, He shows us what sin is and gives us a genuine desire to turn from it and glorify Him.
I see nothing in Scripture that says that Christians are better people because they are saved.
The Bible does say this, and quite a bit, actually. It's called sanctification. The spirit purifies us as we run the race. You cannot have justification without sanctification. They're a package deal.
I see a great deal that calls us to respond to God's grace with love and obedience... but it's not a pre-condition for salvation. It is, as you say, a fruit.
But the two are intimately intertwined. Part of the very saving process is conviction of sin that leads to repentance. If you don't have that, you don't even know God yet.
There are millions of Christians throughout history who did things that were completely natural in their time and culture that we see as sinful now. Slavery is the big one that comes to mind (and not just American slavery, but ancient and medieval slavery as well as modern). Infanticide (exposure) was common in medieval times, even in Christian Europe. Those are the "biggies". The more common sins have been and always will be among us -- adultery, theft, lying, idolatry, etc.
See, but that's no excuse. Sin is sin. We don't look to other sinners to excuse our own. What matters is glorifying Christ. And He tells us how exactly we can do that.
I firmly believe that God works on us where we are. While both my gluttony and my lying may be sinful (not to mention the more shadowy sins that I don't like to think about), I am currently more willing to allow Him to work with me on the lying... and in that, He brings me closer to His image, and more willing in time to work on the other, more shadowed areas of my sinful life.
See, this is a really cool comment, and I appreciate you saying that. You know you are a sinner. God is indeed working with you right where you are. But the key here is that you
know it. You are not denying or excusing your sin. This is the fruit of those who walk in the light.
But even when I was in the midst of a very sinful life, actively doing many of the things that are explicitly preached against in almost every church around the world, I relied upon the sure promise and grace of Christ Jesus. I was a Christian... even though a VERY poor example of one. It is only by His grace that I've come this far, and only by His grace that I will continue to grow and conform to His image.
And again, here we see how He has been working in you even while you were still in your sin. He is sanctifying you.
And that's what I see when I see Christians who say that this or that is not sinful when I can so clearly (now) see that it is. They are misguided, and defensive, and hurting. But they are no less Christians for their sin. And I will continue to try to explain to them why they are mistaken, and I will continue to pray that the Spirit will convict and change them even as He has so many others.
But as Nadiine pointed out, it's not a matter of what you or I think is sin. It's a matter of what God
says is sin. Sin, in all its forms is against God. And when people constantly deny that, He eventually turns them over to their wicked ways, allowing their consciences to effectively stop working. He removes that part of His general grace. But with believers, He works with us, he holds on to us, and he continues to convict us until we can't stand it anymore.
Their Christianity is not in question, in my mind. That relies only on Christ, and Him sacrificed. They may turn from him and deny him, but they cannot change the fact of his sacrifice.
Their Christian witness may indeed be in question, but that is a different problem and needs a different discussion.
Their Christianity should be questioned. Not so that we can condemn or point fingers, but so that we may be able to lead them to the light. Sometimes people actually think they are saved when they are not. Either way, it is not our job to look the other way if we truly care about this person.
actually CP, I think people aren't letting things get to them that maybe they should.
I'm serious.
It isn't me with the problem on this. We're called to HATE evil, not smile & fold our hands at false teaching and promotion of evil.
I think on this forum that people are SO used to seeing sin promotion, that it's turned to apathy anymore.
Yes I'm upset, but I think I should be at what I read around here sometimes.
I think some zeal for the Lord is healthy as a matter of fact.
But thanks for your concern
No argument with you on that, my dear. You are a true warrior, deep in the trenches. But I admit lately I've seen a few posts you've made here that make me wonder if you're a little weary from the battle right now. We both well know how that goes. It's like a roller coaster with lots of ups and downs. So I just want to encourage you to take care of you too. I'm glad that CC is thriving so that we can come here to refuel.
:o
