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Featured If you keep sinning after you are saved are you still saved?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie

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    Please quote Pelagius saying those things. He did nott each the things you say.

    When one is in the sanctified state, therer is no sitting back - it is a battle to stay there as it is by faith.
     
  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Sadly yout post has no truth in it. I will leave that between you and God. As posted earlier, you have provided no context or scripture and only provide your own words that argues against God's Word. I asked you in the very post you are responding to what context have you provided that makes the scriptures shared with you earlier not say only those who endure temptation to the end receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12? You have only responded again with your own words that are not God's Word making claims that have no truth in them. If you cannot prove your claims why do you deny the scriptures that have been provided and only shared in love and as a help to you? Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4 and you have provided none. Your words are not God's.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  3. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    John 6:37-40 who are the ones God gives to Christ? Are they certain individuals solely chosen by God unconditionally? Capriciously? No. The ones God gives to Christ are the ones who have conditionally chosen to cometh to Christ and believeth, John 6:35-36, and Christ will not cast them away no matter who they are, no matter their background, no matter if rich, poor, race, nationality, etc.

    Both verbs 'cometh' and 'believeth' are present tense denoting the action is sustained and ongoing. So as long as they have a sustained coming and believing they belong to Christ and He will keep them.

    Yet if one quits hearing and believing he can be lost. John 17:6-12 Judas was one whom God gave to Christ and Christ kept. Yet Judas sinned, he did not keep coming and believing and did not repent of the sin he committed against Christ.

    John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth (present tense) the Son, and believeth (present tense) on him, may (subjunctive mood) have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Strong's - "The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." The meaning of Christ's words in verse 40, with the subjunctive mood, is that having everlasting life may or may not occur depending upon the circumstance of one maintaining a present tense seeing and believing. If one does, he can have everlasting life, if one quits, he will not have everlasting life. Having everlasting life is completely conditional upon one continuing to see and believe.

    This continued believing requires the Christian to conditionally repent of the sins he commits.

    Therefore those who are Christians can and do sin but God requires repentance of those sins for the Christian to remain forgiven, 1 John 1:7-10.

    John 6:37 the verb 'giveth' is present tense, God conditionally keeps on giving those who conditionally keep on believing/coming to Christ. If one quits believing/coming to Christ, God does not keep on giving them to Christ.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  4. lsume

    lsume Active Member Supporter

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    I believe that for you to truly repent, you must expect to never commit the sin again. Of course you might commit the sin again but the intention must be there to cease from sin. Only Christ can make someone invincible to sin.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So you carefully read through my points prior at another time and carefully checked them with Scripture? How about addressing a few of my points by showing the context.
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Can't be bothered. Too late at night. I'm off to bed.
     
  7. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie

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    Thought so.
     
  8. nanookadenord

    nanookadenord Well-Known Member

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    I think what he is saying is that pro-pelagius talk will not be tolerated on these forums as he considered a heretic.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’ve already proven to you how you’ve taken scripture out of context. So I’m not going to do it again. But I will do it for anyone else who asks.
     
  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No point. I've said all I have to say on this topic.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    This isn’t going to be a debate. I’m just telling you, from a staff member, how the site view Pelagius.
     
  12. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm an old buzzard. I get tired! You can look Pelagius up yourself and tell me! I'll believe you! I'll believe anything at 5 past midnight! :)
     
  13. nanookadenord

    nanookadenord Well-Known Member

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    Oscar I believe is from Australia or New Zealand. So, for him it is late at night.

    No need to be passive aggressive.
     
  14. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Here we go! The big stick's come out now! Great! :)
     
  15. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Some people up on the right side of the world think that Australia and New Zealand are one country. But there's this big ditch between us, called the Tasman Sea. It takes three hours by airplane to get from Auckland NZ to Sydney Aust. Never lump those from the land of OZ with those from Nu Zild. Heresy!!!!!! :)
     
  16. nanookadenord

    nanookadenord Well-Known Member

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    LOL... I wasn't doing that. I just couldn't remember if you were a Kiwi or an Aussie. I would never lump the two together. I learned that lesson many years ago.
     
  17. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Pelegus was almost a source of quotation for me in my studies. What little writings of his exist are duplicitous.

    On one hand... he speaks near as boldly as Martin Luther about real sin and real need for Jesus’ Grace. On the other hand, he drives home a pursuit of Carnal Sinlessness.

    Augustine isn’t someone I draw from either, because of his early Marcionism, though he recanted and opposed it, later on.

    Perhaps it is because of both of them, that I am even further inclined to cling to Scripture and 1 John 2:27, with a discard of all other doctrinal sources.

    I’m not going to evaluate your claim, but I would like to know what you make of 1 John 8-10.
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Goodness your posts have no truth in them. This is simply sad for you. I will leave this between you and God and pray for you. You don't respond because you cannot. That is why I asked you in the first place. You have only proven my point for which I thank you.
     
  19. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie

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    As this site is closed to have the truth about Pelagius told, I will desist futher mentions, but urge people to find his writings and know that he believed in grace.
     
  20. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie

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    We must not wrest this verse out of the context of the book and the chapter in which it is written if we want to understand John. 1John was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church (and still is) and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church as was contended by Lampe in his appeal to Theodoret.



    The Latin version said "Epistle to the Pathians, adopted by Ancient Fathers defended by Grotius" but not in Greek, but at least the Syriac language of the Parthian Empire was understood by Christian’s unaquainted with Greek. Whoton conjectures on Greek superscription (to virgins) because the epistle is addressed to 'uncorrupted' Christians. Frequent usage of light and darkness occurs in Persian philosophy so John is correcting the abuses of it. That John really designed his epistle as a warning to those Christians who were in danger of being affected by Zoroastrian principles is very probable though the language of the epistle will not permit us to place John's readers in a country to the East of Euphrates.



    The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by Cerinthus and the Gnostics. Cerinthus taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism. In order to understand the epistle we must ask ourselves the following questions, Why did John give these admonitions? Why did he repeat them frequently? Why has he admonished if he thought admonition necessary, merely in general terms and brotherly love? Why has he not sometimes descended into particulars as other apostles have done?



    The Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, (which is nowadays recognised by 'imputed righteousness' which Fox taught against) contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.



    The basis of this error i.e. that a believer can still be in Christ and sin was made popular and spread through the church by Augustine who taught this because he was unable to give up his women. Augustine has spread his heresies throughout the Protestant and Catholic Church since. Fox and the Quakers (and others at various times) saw this notion as unscriptural as it was taught also during the early centuries of the church, but was always opposed amongst those who did not wish to turn from their sins.









    If we look at verses 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 in chapter 1,



    6, If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.



    7, But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin



    (BUT)



    8, If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us



    (BUT)



    9, If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.



    (BUT)



    10, If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us



    We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness ie walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about 'carnal' or fleshy believers against those who were walking in the Spirit.. In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-



    1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)

    2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven

    3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.



    Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-



    1)We are deceived and remain in our sin

    2)There is no truth in us

    3)We make God a liar by denying our need for forgiveness.



    So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin. The letter is to believers and not un-believers as stated previously. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.



    Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from ALL sin and come to Christ (again) for forgiveness, then He will be able to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (not just the sin in question please note) So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and HAVE been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.



    John goes on in the rest of his epistle to show that those who do carry on in sin (but say they have no further need of cleansing) are NOT in CHRIST. He stresses his point against the Gnostic heresy Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7 and this is the test i.e. as He is righteous so must we be not just in position or as a hope for the future but as a present reality that we must be as Christ, without sin if we are walking in the light.



    But whoso keepth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5



    My little children these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1



    Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not whosoever sinneth not hath not seen Him neither known Him 3:6



    He that commiteth sin is of the devil 3:8



    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9



    Let me end my discussion of 1 John 3:9 with this:

    That the word sin in the Greek is the present tense indicative is beyond
    dispute. Anybody can check this fact with Bible Works or another such program.
    The Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament says, "The present tense
    indicates continual, habitual action." The Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in
    the New Testament, by Ernest Burton, says, "The present indicative is used of
    action in progress in present time." And the Orthodox Study Bible, representing
    Greek Orthodox theology says that 1 John 3:9 is literally, "does not keep on
    sinning."

    The New Bible Commentary states, "If he is born again from above he will
    habitually lead the life of a born-again person, in spite of stumbles; if he
    continually sins he is of the devil, so that the false teachers were wrong in
    saying that sin does not matter. As righteous living characterized the Master,
    so it must characterize the servant."

    So what John is NOT teaching is:
    1. that a born again person cannot sin.
    2. that his sin are not real ones
    3. that God automatically forgives our sins without confession
    4. that God does not see his sins, but rather sees the blood of Christ instead
    5. that sins are not imputed to him
    6. that the new man does not sin while the old man does sin
    7. that all one's sins are already forgiven, past, present, and future
    8. that a little sin is ok

    What John is saying, throughout his epistle, is that Jesus came to save you
    from sin and sinning, and if you have not made a break with the habit of
    sinning, you are not even at the beginning. You are not even saved. If you are
    genuinely saved, then you no longer knowingly do wrong all the time. That is
    the beginning point on the highway of holiness.
     
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