If you keep sinning after you are saved are you still saved?

bmjackson

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I managed to read 250 pages of Arminius' works volume 1. He is actually closer to the Scripture than Calvin and lived a more holy life and was more tolerant to those who disagreed with him than Calvin. So Arminianism has its good points, but so does Calvinism. It is just the extremes either way that lead to error.

Pelagius went wrong in saying that man is totally free to make his own choices about justification and sanctification. He taught that the Holy Spirit was dependent on man in these areas. He denied the sovereignty of God. Arminius disagreed. He accepted the sovereignty of God and the involvement of the Holy Spirit in Justification and sanctification, and says that the issue of predestination is a mystery but does not accept that God deliberately creates souls for an eternity in Hell.

But if we get back the Scripture we see that Paul's view of the Christian walk involved running the race, fighting the good fight of faith, keeping the body under subjection. These require active effort, not sitting on the couch passively and saying it is all of Christ. That notion came up as a very serious heresy in the 17th Century and was simply antinomianism.


Please quote Pelagius saying those things. He did nott each the things you say.

When one is in the sanctified state, therer is no sitting back - it is a battle to stay there as it is by faith.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Please don’t preach on context. I’ve shown over and over how you take verses out of context. If someone wants me to do it again, I will gladly do so.

Sadly yout post has no truth in it. I will leave that between you and God. As posted earlier, you have provided no context or scripture and only provide your own words that argues against God's Word. I asked you in the very post you are responding to what context have you provided that makes the scriptures shared with you earlier not say only those who endure temptation to the end receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12? You have only responded again with your own words that are not God's Word making claims that have no truth in them. If you cannot prove your claims why do you deny the scriptures that have been provided and only shared in love and as a help to you? Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4 and you have provided none. Your words are not God's.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word)
 
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TheSeabass

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If you keep sinning after yoluve been saved are you still saved? Jesus promises in John 6:37-40 to not lose one single believer but do believers continue to sin after they've been saved? Like for example say you're caught in the same set of sins are you still saved? Even if you cannot stop doing those same sins over and over again? Like say you like to use Christs name in vain a lot or if you swear a lot or if you're stuck in one particular sin is that person still given to Jesus by God the Father and eternally secure?

John 6:37-40 who are the ones God gives to Christ? Are they certain individuals solely chosen by God unconditionally? Capriciously? No. The ones God gives to Christ are the ones who have conditionally chosen to cometh to Christ and believeth, John 6:35-36, and Christ will not cast them away no matter who they are, no matter their background, no matter if rich, poor, race, nationality, etc.

Both verbs 'cometh' and 'believeth' are present tense denoting the action is sustained and ongoing. So as long as they have a sustained coming and believing they belong to Christ and He will keep them.

Yet if one quits hearing and believing he can be lost. John 17:6-12 Judas was one whom God gave to Christ and Christ kept. Yet Judas sinned, he did not keep coming and believing and did not repent of the sin he committed against Christ.

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth (present tense) the Son, and believeth (present tense) on him, may (subjunctive mood) have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Strong's - "The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." The meaning of Christ's words in verse 40, with the subjunctive mood, is that having everlasting life may or may not occur depending upon the circumstance of one maintaining a present tense seeing and believing. If one does, he can have everlasting life, if one quits, he will not have everlasting life. Having everlasting life is completely conditional upon one continuing to see and believe.

This continued believing requires the Christian to conditionally repent of the sins he commits.

Therefore those who are Christians can and do sin but God requires repentance of those sins for the Christian to remain forgiven, 1 John 1:7-10.

John 6:37 the verb 'giveth' is present tense, God conditionally keeps on giving those who conditionally keep on believing/coming to Christ. If one quits believing/coming to Christ, God does not keep on giving them to Christ.
 
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lsume

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If you keep sinning after yoluve been saved are you still saved? Jesus promises in John 6:37-40 to not lose one single believer but do believers continue to sin after they've been saved? Like for example say you're caught in the same set of sins are you still saved? Even if you cannot stop doing those same sins over and over again? Like say you like to use Christs name in vain a lot or if you swear a lot or if you're stuck in one particular sin is that person still given to Jesus by God the Father and eternally secure?
I believe that for you to truly repent, you must expect to never commit the sin again. Of course you might commit the sin again but the intention must be there to cease from sin. Only Christ can make someone invincible to sin.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I don't need to. You have given the same message several times in all your posts on the topic. I get it! I have read the whole of Romans 7, and I also know the mind-set of Jewish Pharisees and their approach to the Law, and I also know how the Judiastic Jew followed the Law.

I also know that your view agrees largely with Romanists and Seventh Day Adventists.

But my foundation is in the writings of the Puritan divines, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, JC Ryle, whose doctrine is sound and Biblical.

So you carefully read through my points prior at another time and carefully checked them with Scripture? How about addressing a few of my points by showing the context.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Please quote Pelagius saying those things. He did nott each the things you say.

When one is in the sanctified state, therer is no sitting back - it is a battle to stay there as it is by faith.
Can't be bothered. Too late at night. I'm off to bed.
 
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Hammster

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No you have'nt. Your post has no truth in it. I asked you to prove your claims. You did not and continue to only speaking your words while denying God's. This is sad for you.
I’ve already proven to you how you’ve taken scripture out of context. So I’m not going to do it again. But I will do it for anyone else who asks.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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So you carefully read through my points prior at another time and carefully checked them with Scripture? How about addressing a few of my points by showing the context.
No point. I've said all I have to say on this topic.
 
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Hammster

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Please quote his error from source thank you.
This isn’t going to be a debate. I’m just telling you, from a staff member, how the site view Pelagius.
 
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Thought so.
I'm an old buzzard. I get tired! You can look Pelagius up yourself and tell me! I'll believe you! I'll believe anything at 5 past midnight! :)
 
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This isn’t going to be a debate. I’m just telling you, from a staff member, how the site view Pelagius.
Here we go! The big stick's come out now! Great! :)
 
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Oscar I believe is from Australia or New Zealand. So, for him it is late at night.

No need to be passive aggressive.
Some people up on the right side of the world think that Australia and New Zealand are one country. But there's this big ditch between us, called the Tasman Sea. It takes three hours by airplane to get from Auckland NZ to Sydney Aust. Never lump those from the land of OZ with those from Nu Zild. Heresy!!!!!! :)
 
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nanookadenord

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Some people up on the right side of the world think that Australia and New Zealand are one country. But there's this big ditch between us, called the Tasman Sea. It takes three hours by airplane to get from Auckland NZ to Sydney Aust. Never lump those from the land of OZ with those from Nu Zild. Heresy!!!!!! :)

LOL... I wasn't doing that. I just couldn't remember if you were a Kiwi or an Aussie. I would never lump the two together. I learned that lesson many years ago.
 
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Grip Docility

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It took me 17 years so I would not call it a shortcut for me. But when the truth was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit, I was enabled to step into it by faith alone in the finished work of the cross. It was finished then, which means that man no longer has to struggle against sin. He can have the results of the freedom which Christ came to give, at the point that he believes it.

Please do not follow Augustines, get-out plan when he was put into a corner by the righteous Pelagius who has been misquoted since. Did you not know that he had invented the interpretation you hold?

Pelegus was almost a source of quotation for me in my studies. What little writings of his exist are duplicitous.

On one hand... he speaks near as boldly as Martin Luther about real sin and real need for Jesus’ Grace. On the other hand, he drives home a pursuit of Carnal Sinlessness.

Augustine isn’t someone I draw from either, because of his early Marcionism, though he recanted and opposed it, later on.

Perhaps it is because of both of them, that I am even further inclined to cling to Scripture and 1 John 2:27, with a discard of all other doctrinal sources.

I’m not going to evaluate your claim, but I would like to know what you make of 1 John 8-10.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I’ve already proven to you how you’ve taken scripture out of context. So I’m not going to do it again. But I will do it for anyone else who asks.
Goodness your posts have no truth in them. This is simply sad for you. I will leave this between you and God and pray for you. You don't respond because you cannot. That is why I asked you in the first place. You have only proven my point for which I thank you.
 
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bmjackson

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Pelegus was almost a source of quotation for me in my studies. What little writings of his exist are duplicitous.

On one hand... he speaks near as boldly as Martin Luther about real sin and real need for Jesus’ Grace. On the other hand, he drives home a pursuit of Carnal Sinlessness.

Augustine isn’t someone I draw from either, because of his early Marcionism, though he recanted and opposed it, later on.

Perhaps it is because of both of them, that I am even further inclined to cling to Scripture and 1 John 2:27, with a discard of all other doctrinal sources.

I’m not going to evaluate your claim, but I would like to know what you make of 1 John 8-10.

We must not wrest this verse out of the context of the book and the chapter in which it is written if we want to understand John. 1John was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church (and still is) and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church as was contended by Lampe in his appeal to Theodoret.



The Latin version said "Epistle to the Pathians, adopted by Ancient Fathers defended by Grotius" but not in Greek, but at least the Syriac language of the Parthian Empire was understood by Christian’s unaquainted with Greek. Whoton conjectures on Greek superscription (to virgins) because the epistle is addressed to 'uncorrupted' Christians. Frequent usage of light and darkness occurs in Persian philosophy so John is correcting the abuses of it. That John really designed his epistle as a warning to those Christians who were in danger of being affected by Zoroastrian principles is very probable though the language of the epistle will not permit us to place John's readers in a country to the East of Euphrates.



The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by Cerinthus and the Gnostics. Cerinthus taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism. In order to understand the epistle we must ask ourselves the following questions, Why did John give these admonitions? Why did he repeat them frequently? Why has he admonished if he thought admonition necessary, merely in general terms and brotherly love? Why has he not sometimes descended into particulars as other apostles have done?



The Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, (which is nowadays recognised by 'imputed righteousness' which Fox taught against) contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.



The basis of this error i.e. that a believer can still be in Christ and sin was made popular and spread through the church by Augustine who taught this because he was unable to give up his women. Augustine has spread his heresies throughout the Protestant and Catholic Church since. Fox and the Quakers (and others at various times) saw this notion as unscriptural as it was taught also during the early centuries of the church, but was always opposed amongst those who did not wish to turn from their sins.









If we look at verses 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 in chapter 1,



6, If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.



7, But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin



(BUT)



8, If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us



(BUT)



9, If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.



(BUT)



10, If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us



We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness ie walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about 'carnal' or fleshy believers against those who were walking in the Spirit.. In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-



1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)

2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven

3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.



Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-



1)We are deceived and remain in our sin

2)There is no truth in us

3)We make God a liar by denying our need for forgiveness.



So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin. The letter is to believers and not un-believers as stated previously. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.



Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from ALL sin and come to Christ (again) for forgiveness, then He will be able to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (not just the sin in question please note) So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and HAVE been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.



John goes on in the rest of his epistle to show that those who do carry on in sin (but say they have no further need of cleansing) are NOT in CHRIST. He stresses his point against the Gnostic heresy Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7 and this is the test i.e. as He is righteous so must we be not just in position or as a hope for the future but as a present reality that we must be as Christ, without sin if we are walking in the light.



But whoso keepth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5



My little children these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1



Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not whosoever sinneth not hath not seen Him neither known Him 3:6



He that commiteth sin is of the devil 3:8



Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9



Let me end my discussion of 1 John 3:9 with this:

That the word sin in the Greek is the present tense indicative is beyond
dispute. Anybody can check this fact with Bible Works or another such program.
The Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament says, "The present tense
indicates continual, habitual action." The Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in
the New Testament, by Ernest Burton, says, "The present indicative is used of
action in progress in present time." And the Orthodox Study Bible, representing
Greek Orthodox theology says that 1 John 3:9 is literally, "does not keep on
sinning."

The New Bible Commentary states, "If he is born again from above he will
habitually lead the life of a born-again person, in spite of stumbles; if he
continually sins he is of the devil, so that the false teachers were wrong in
saying that sin does not matter. As righteous living characterized the Master,
so it must characterize the servant."

So what John is NOT teaching is:
1. that a born again person cannot sin.
2. that his sin are not real ones
3. that God automatically forgives our sins without confession
4. that God does not see his sins, but rather sees the blood of Christ instead
5. that sins are not imputed to him
6. that the new man does not sin while the old man does sin
7. that all one's sins are already forgiven, past, present, and future
8. that a little sin is ok

What John is saying, throughout his epistle, is that Jesus came to save you
from sin and sinning, and if you have not made a break with the habit of
sinning, you are not even at the beginning. You are not even saved. If you are
genuinely saved, then you no longer knowingly do wrong all the time. That is
the beginning point on the highway of holiness.
 
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