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Featured If you keep sinning after you are saved are you still saved?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I know you think you provide God’s word. But when you don’t post in context (which I’ve shown that you do not do), it’s no longer God’s word, but your own. It’s really a sin to say God said something that He didn’t. It’s like a “fixed it for you”. It’s a sin. Sin requires repentance.
     
  2. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You nailed it, bro. I hope that folks like Jason and LGW are sincere in trying to help. But the reality is they are taking the light yoke of Jesus and adding unnecessary burdens.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And there is the problem. You’ve convinced yourself that there is a category of sin that’s not grievous, and it’s okay if you do those sins. You are a law unto yourself. If that’s how you want to live, fine. But stop spreading this falsehood to other.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Context? You want others to do what you yourself don’t do?
     
  5. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    The interpretation you have outlined, is the one that Augustine changed to during his dispute with Pelagius. That is why you find it from Reformed sources, but it had not been heard of before Augustine. It was new.

    The other interpretation outlined is also wrong. There are not only two interpretations of this passage.

    It was the common one which says that the man was unsaved or a Pharisee which is easily disputed by Paul's declarations as a Pharisee elsewhere where he says he was perfect according to the law.

    Both of these typical interpretations these days are missing the true one, that it is a man who has been stuck in Romans 7 as a carnal believer and who cries out to God for deliverance which he has received by the time we get to the next chapter.
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Tell me your secret. It seems that you have got the victory and no longer struggle with sin. I have been working at it to increase my sanctification for the last 50 years and I haven't got there yet. You must have found a shortcut to perfection!
     
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  7. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    When the bar is no longer Christ, you can convince yourself of anything.
     
  8. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    It took me 17 years so I would not call it a shortcut for me. But when the truth was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit, I was enabled to step into it by faith alone in the finished work of the cross. It was finished then, which means that man no longer has to struggle against sin. He can have the results of the freedom which Christ came to give, at the point that he believes it.

    Please do not follow Augustines, get-out plan when he was put into a corner by the righteous Pelagius who has been misquoted since. Did you not know that he had invented the interpretation you hold?
     
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Your post has no truth in it. You have provided no context or scripture and only provide your own words that argues against God's Word. What context have you provided that makes the scriptures shared earlier not say only those who endure temptation to the end receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12? If you cannot prove your claims why do you deny the scriptures that have been provided and only shared in love and as a help to you? As posted earlier, you have been provided God's Word, in response you provide your own words that are not God's Word. I know who I believe and it is not you. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and your words are not God's.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    If you say you haven't had an evil thought for the last three months, then you are sunk and you are back to the struggle that all the rest of us have with sin, because you are telling a white lie.
     
  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    That's going to be a lol from me chief.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  12. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Evil thoughts are included in the definition of walking without sin. But lets get back to Augustine and not take things off track.
     
  13. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Interpreting Romans 7.

    There have been two interpretations of Romans 7 which have dominated church history and which are sometimes known as the Primitive and the Post-Primitive. Augustine held to the Primitive in his early years, as did nearly all of the Church Fathers and writers before Augustine, but changed his stance later. The reason that he changed was due to his heated discourses with Pelagius. There have been two interpretations widely held since Augustine, the original and the one from Augustine called the Post Primitive which did not exist before he adopted and popularised it. The third, was held by Pelagius and claims that sinlessness is possible in this life.


    We must conclude that the man depicted in Romans 7 is a) a man who has only just come to Christ for forgiveness and has attempted previously to be righteous through obeying the law, (or as commonly known as an unbeliever) and the Primitive view, b) the normal state of a Christian which is held by Calvinists in the main and brought in by Augustine and c) the believer who has come to the crisis in his faith and inability to keep God’s law in the manner that he knows he must, whereby he will be delivered from the body of sin to the state where there is no more condemnation, the view which became widespread during the ‘Celtic period’, and Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There is no other viable interpretation of these texts.

    The Primitive view and the one which is widely held today for example by many Arminians, is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said: “It is understood that man here described who was never under grace” (Homilies). This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.

    “In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man? Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so palable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church” (J Schmidz Romans 7)

    Augustine did not accept Pelagius’ argument and agree with his interpretation. Pelagius was trying to show Augustine that Romans 7 was not to be understood as the so called Primitive view but the Apostolic view. Augustine realised his first view was untenable that Paul described the unregenerate but the second view was untenable for Augustine because it says that man can stop sinning.

    Pelagius taught the Apostolic view which is that Paul is speaking about the Christian in Romans 7 but not in what should be his normal condition. Those who do not accept the view that it is a Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. However, the person describing it is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God has convicted the man of his sinfulness. Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought acceptance through the works of the law. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustine’s position and excuse their sin. and until they come to the point whereby they admit their powerlessness.

    The misunderstanding of the early writers teachings in saying that Romans 7 is the unregenerate person could be that some meant an unregenerate person as a believer who has not arrived at the sanctification experience, which was what Wesley meant by the 'Almost Christian' In the Bible, salvation sanctification and justification are all one event but describing the differing aspects of it. This could means that one is not really saved until they are entirely sanctified. Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also the power and the presence.

    This Apostolic view has been rejected by most of the church through the ages and the reason why Pelagius has had such bad press. By his dispute with Augustine and his understanding of Romans 7, he did not teach that the Christian could stop sinning on his own accord. Far from it. It needed the divine interaction of God to bring about the change or deliverance needed to get Paul from Romans7 to Romans 8.
     
  14. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Even Arminius treated Pelagius as a heretic!
     
  15. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Pelagius' writings were mainly destroyed by guess who. Most people only quote what others have said and have not read Pelagius at source and as can be seen by my previous post, his theology is easily discerned by his interpretation of Romans 7.
     
  16. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Please don’t preach on context. I’ve shown over and over how you take verses out of context. If someone wants me to do it again, I will gladly do so.
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    This site considers Pelagius a heretic, and his views to be heresy.

    Just a friendly heads up.
     
  18. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I managed to read 250 pages of Arminius' works volume 1. He is actually closer to the Scripture than Calvin and lived a more holy life and was more tolerant to those who disagreed with him than Calvin. So Arminianism has its good points, but so does Calvinism. It is just the extremes either way that lead to error.

    Pelagius went wrong in saying that man is totally free to make his own choices about justification and sanctification. He taught that the Holy Spirit was dependent on man in these areas. He denied the sovereignty of God. Arminius disagreed. He accepted the sovereignty of God and the involvement of the Holy Spirit in Justification and sanctification, and says that the issue of predestination is a mystery but does not accept that God deliberately creates souls for an eternity in Hell.

    But if we get back the Scripture we see that Paul's view of the Christian walk involved running the race, fighting the good fight of faith, keeping the body under subjection. These require active effort, not sitting on the couch passively and saying it is all of Christ. That notion came up as a very serious heresy in the 17th Century and was simply antinomianism.
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    No you have'nt. Your post has no truth in it. I asked you to prove your claims. You did not and continue to only speaking your words while denying God's. This is sad for you.
     
  20. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Please quote his error from source thank you.
     
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