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Featured If you keep sinning after you are saved are you still saved?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I have done extensive reading of the Puritan divines, and they all agree that Paul's experience in Romans 7 is one of a mature converted believer. No unbeliever will say that he delights in the Law in his inward man. Paul never delighted in the Law before he was converted. He followed it out of duty for fear he would be lost if he failed it in just one little bit. It was only after he became converted that he started to love God's Law. He said that his heart wants to follow the Law of God. But the unconverted Jew did not follow the Law in his heart. He followed it as a set of outward rules. Jesus demonstrated that when He spoke of divorce, adultery, and murder. He said just not committing adultery was not sufficient, but even a lustful thought toward a woman was enough to break the Law in their hearts; and just hating a person was the same as murder in the heart. So Paul would never have loved the Law or desired to follow it from his heart, but once he got converted, his heart was changed and things were very different. Then, as he matured in Christ, he sensed the real battle and struggle with his flesh and that when he said that although he strongly desired to be perfectly sanctified, there was another law in his physical body that fought against that desire and hindered his progress in sanctification.

    Every Puritan divine, had the same struggle and the more mature they become, the more humbled by sin they were, they knew they had to fight against sin all their lives, and they never gave up that fight.

    So, to teach that we can gain sinless perfection in this life is to teach utter heresy and can drive souls away from Christ instead of leading them to Him.
     
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  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Teaching sinless perfection and requiring compliance with it with threats of condemnation for those who cannot attain perfection is teaching heresy and pointing people to the short cut to hell.
     
  3. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I was once told a story of righteous monks that wanted to be perfect.

    They had poles constructed that lifted them high off the earth, and had a small room atop the lofty dwelling.

    Food was received in baskets and waste was lowered in buckets.

    They studied scripture and wrote all day.

    They gave their word that they would be honest about their findings.

    Each monk reported a different sin that haunted them, unrelentingly... at the end of their time above the earth.

    My personal take home from this... talk about burying the Masters wealth!
     
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  4. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Brother,

    I have an illustration for you.

    Whatever you do, do not think of the color red.

    I can’t emphasize enough how important it is that you don’t picture a red car, red house, red barn, red shirt, red carpet, red sign or anything of the like.

    Red is OFF LIMITS!

    You will be damned if you think of Red!

    Red is a no no! Put a Stop sign in front of the color red!

    ................... Did you think of the color red?

    Did you get the point of the illustration?
     
  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Who said anything about Sinless Perfection?
    I am talking about overcoming grievous sin that the Bible condemns (Like lying, lusting, hating, etc.), and I am not talking about overcoming faults of character or minor transgressions that the Bible does not appear to condemn a person spiritually for. For are you aware that there is a “sin not unto death?”
     
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    This in no way is a refutation of what Romans 8:13 says plainly. If you disagree with the plain straight forward meaning of Romans 8:13 (that I have shown), then please explain what you think this verse actually means.

    Note: Please use the context to support your interpretation.
     
  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    It’s Unbelief in the Sufficiency Of Jesus to save a sinner, Jason! That is the sin unto death!

    It’s right there when Jesus casts the Demon out and is accused of being one who casts out Demons by the power of demons.

    It is trampling over the Power Of God as if it is a cheap thing that is unholy, by blaspheming the Hope for the hopeless!

    It is knowing the only Blessed hope we have and casting Him aside for vain glory!

    Paul even explained this with the word Anathema! I’ve been trying to be gentle!!!!

    We all have an obligation to Mercy! This is the Gospel war cry!
     
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    That is not speaking about genuinely converted believers in Christ.
     
  9. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I have posted my complete answer to the "back-door" salvation by works, but those who are suggesting that mature believers can go into willful and premeditated sin, just keep banging on the same old drum as it repeated posts saying the same things will convince intelligent believers of their heretical views.

    Obviously our friends have never read any of the Puritan divines who have given us the best and most sound doctrinal teaching about sin, salvation, and sanctification.
     
  10. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Eight Reasons Why Paul Spoke as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24:

    There are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

    #1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

    #2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

    #6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

    #7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
    3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

    So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
    It was the Old Covenant Law.
    For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
    Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
    Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

    Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

    This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

    Paul says elsewhere,
    8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

    (Romans 13:8-10).

    So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
    We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

    So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

    #8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

    In Romans 8:2, we see:

    Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
    This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
    It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

    Law #2. Sin and Death.
    This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

    What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

    Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law. For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


    Source used for a small paragraph within this post: Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
     
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Not true. James 1:12 is in context to James 2:1 that says,

    “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” (James 2:1).
     
  12. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Rubbish.
    No Pharisee lighted in the Law from his heart. He followed it as an outward set of rules. Neither did he have a conflict between Spirit and flesh. He believed that he was keeping the Law perfectly. Jesus proved that although there was outward perfection, their hearts were still sinful. The Pharisee believed he was sinlessly perfect, so he never had the conflict with sin in his physical body and his desire to follow the Law in his heart. He never saw that he had a body of death at all.

    You are showing a lack of the Pharisee's approach to the Mosaic Law.
    You are demonstrating that you have never read the works of the Reformers and the Puritans, the majority of whom maintained quite correctly that Romans 7 was the experience of a Christian believer. Their journals show this clearly, because it was their experience.

    JC Ryle, whose book is the classic on Holiness, says this quite clearly, and his doctrine has been adopted by the majority of real Christians.

    When a person reads books, they KNOW things!
     
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    You replied way too fast. Unless you are a speed reader, you didn’t even carefully read the points I made with Scripture. Please go back and carefully look at them and your Bible please. I would also encourage you to read the whole of Romans 7 and Romans 8 as you carefully check out my points in Scripture. If you still disagree after carefully examining my points with Scripture, then you need to offer a counter explanation using the context.
     
  14. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I don't need to. You have given the same message several times in all your posts on the topic. I get it! I have read the whole of Romans 7, and I also know the mind-set of Jewish Pharisees and their approach to the Law, and I also know how the Judiastic Jew followed the Law.

    I also know that your view agrees largely with Romanists and Seventh Day Adventists.

    But my foundation is in the writings of the Puritan divines, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, JC Ryle, whose doctrine is sound and Biblical.
     
  15. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    In support of your post:

    "Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction"
    (2 Peter 3:15-16).

    This could well be a prophecy for our friend who keeps repeating his message about continued willful sin being condemnation, and that Romans 7 is not Paul's experience as a mature converted believer.
     
  16. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    If my salvation depends on me no longer sinning, then looks like I'm screwed. But at least I won't be alone, literally everyone else will be there, as heaven will be a very empty place.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I suspect that Martin Luther took the same position as Calvin and the Puritans concerning Paul's struggle in Romans 7.
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Simul iustus et peccator.

    "For this is true, that according to the Divine reckoning we are in fact and totally righteous, even though sin is present. So we are in fact at the same time and altogether sinners." - Martin Luther, Third Antinomian Disputation

    "Here stand the clear plain words: All the saints are sinners and remain sinners. But they are holy because God in His grace neither sees nor counts these sins, but forgets, forgives, and covers them. There is thus no distinction between the saints and the non-saints. They are sinners alike and all sin daily, only that the sins of the holy are not counted but covered; and the sins of the unholy are not covered but counted. One would have a healing dressing on and is bandaged; the other wound is open and undressed. Nevertheless, both of them are truly wounded, truly sinners, concerning which we in our books in other places have abundantly bore witness." - Martin Luther, introduction to Psalm 32

    -CryptoLutheran
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  19. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    I agree with your view of Romans 7 being Paul's experience as a Christian. He uses the same rhetoric there as he does in Gal 5:16,17 "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want." And obviously there he's talking of people who have the Spirit and thus are born of God.

    For those born of God sin is like a parasite. We cannot separate it from us, but it is not us, which is why in Romans 7 Paul speaks of it being entity separate from himself. In all he does sin is not absent, but given it does not control his mind, his intentions, the outcome of his behavior is not characteristically sinful. Just as it is written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

    Those who make sin their lord, not reckoning themselves dead to sin, but rather willfully agreeing with sin in its intentions and attitudes, contrary to Paul's attitude towards sin shown in Romans 7 and elsewhere, have not been born of God. While sin is still present in those born of God, their characteristic behavior is under control by the new nature. "Because they have been born of God" there is a characteristic and identifiable difference in behavior between children of God and children of the devil such that "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10

    So in answer to the OP, if I assume he is referring to such characteristic behavior as opposed to simply the mere presence of sin, I would say that the scenario he's referring to simply doesn't occur. It doesn't occur due to the nature of regeneration. Under the New Covenant salvation is by faith in Christ alone, and issues of salvation status are finalized upon coming to faith in Christ. Issues of performance are dealt with through regeneration and are issues separate from how to get saved. Thus verses listing people who do not inherit eternal life are verses speaking of those who have yet to come to saving faith and subsequently born of God.

    Under the law "the man who does these thing will live (gain eternal life) by them". And there are many Christians who are seeking justification by the law. But the righteousness which is by faith is not based on a person's performance but upon their trusting in Christ alone, and not in themselves. A believer is eternally secure in Christ, free from issues of condemnation (John 5:24; Rom 8:1,2) and their characteristic performance is a function of their regeneration.
     
  20. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    sin is both things we do and things we are innately a part of. We need Christ and his redemptive power as much as we did before forgiveness as we do after forgiveness. God doesn't have a chalkboard and adds up on the sin as little marks and then we ask for forgiveness and he erases them all only so we start adding them up again. This type of faith would only need Christ when we sin, but if we don't sin we don't need Christ which is completely counter-gospel. John tells us if we are in Christ and he in use we will produce fruit, it doesn't say we will stop sinning. our focus should be to hate sin and to remain in him so that we may produce fruit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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