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If the majority end up in ect

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by wendykvw, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    The restoration will be a new earth free from the fallen condition not a repeat. “ There will no longer be death or suffering for the old will pass away.”
     
  2. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    How are you defining “plain universalism”?
     
  3. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    Islam teaches the same eternal torture chamber for those who reject Allah. Christianity is unique that Jesus Christ who is God in human form loved every sinner ever born and rather than inflict cruel and unusual punishment to fallible people, He chose to extend Grace and Mercy. No evil spirit and nothing in all creation can prevent God from redeeming and restoring all creation to the original pre-fallen condition.
     
  4. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    Not silly at all. Using your logic when God punishes it is done in a vindictive and hateful manner; and According to the ect view. Moses also asked to have His name removed from the book. One can make the case the book Moses referred to is the book of life. Was Moses asking to go to hell?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  5. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    Great point. I wonder why this is so overlooked in mainstream Christian theology? Would God allow Satan to destroy all He created without hope for every person in all cultures and generations? The devil is good at blinding people from the truth, but if they continue to be blinded that would make the snake victorious. I don’t buy that scenario.
     
  6. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    That is not the full story unless we snip scriptures from the bible.

    Better to present a theology that takes into account every verse under His inspiration.
     
  7. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    Agreed. How do you account for these verses?

    1 Corinthians 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

    Titus 2:11
    For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

    1 Timothy 4:10
    That is why we labour and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, and especially of those who believe.
     
  8. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Verse 1
    All are resurrected to judgement. Some to eternal life some not.

    Verse 2
    The gift of eternal life is offered to all - not all accept.

    Verse 3
    Same again - His salvation is available but not all accept.
     
  9. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    But this is merely your overlay over these verses and the exact opposite of what the verses themselves are clearly saying.

    Reading your post, I must say that I'm so thankful that I have been given a faith where I don't perceive the unimaginable depth, height and breadth of God's love as a threat of eternal torture.
     
  10. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was referring to the notion that absolutely everyone who ever will have lived will be saved, in the end; as opposed to the notion that "all things restored to God" does not include that, but does refer to several other things.
     
  11. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What Islam or or any other pagan religious group taught/teaches is totally irrelevant. I quoted scripture and I quoted, as yet unrefuted, 3 Jewish historical writings which show how the Jews interpreted the relevant scripture. No commentary, no "explanation" only what the Jews wrote about their historical interpretation of their Hebrew scripture. And I showed how what Jesus, Himself, taught did not contradict but supported the then existing belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and the Jews called it both "sheol" and "Gehinnom" written as "Hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT..
    Please show me one vs, 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, speaking or Jesus, Himself, speaking says that all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, will be saved no matter what, even after death. Or words to that effect.
    Here for you edification. The words of Jesus only!
    Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 +/- years ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?

    EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
    Link to EOB N.T.;
    The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    …..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

    EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
    Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
    The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.
    No matter how much you want "aionios" to not mean "eternal" it will never happen.


     
  12. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    First, anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective cherry picked vss. out-of-context as you have done.
    Universal Reconciliation is a big issue. Please show me one [1] vs. 2 or more would be better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, speaking say that all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death or words to that affect.
    How do you understand Matthew 25:46? ...You are wrong and you know it.
    Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 +/- years ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?

    EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
    Link to EOB:
    The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    …..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

    EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
    Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
    The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.


     
  13. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    If one accepts that God will punish people eternally in hell, passages are interpreted one way; if it is believed God will eventually annihilate the wicked, passages are interpreted another way; and if one holds that all will eventually be restored to their original pre-fallen condition. The first two views paint God as incompetent and rest salvation on human ability and effort. Calvin was on point when he recognized that salvation solely rests on the work and merits of Christ.

    Further, no one does presuppositionless exegesis of Scripture, or interpretation without some pre-understandings or theological commitments. There are always larger theological issues to be taken into account before one can pronounce that ‘this is the teaching of the Bible’ on any given subject

    - Thomas Johnson
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  14. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    IT is relevant to the conversation. Christianity is unique in that God would never torture or burn those He loves, and God loves all that He created.

    Did Moses ask to go to hell when he asked God to remove his name from the book?

    Exodus 32:32
    "Yet now, if You would only forgive their sin.... But if not, please blot me out of the book that You have written.”


    Speaking to the pagans who burned their children in the fire God revealed: "They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind." Jer 19:5

    The verses in the gospel that speak of punishment are directed towards the "believers" and religiously minded. Christ warned them often due to their pride and self-righteousness. These religiously minded made it a habit of berating those who they felt were unworthy of salvation, their pride was in their "abilities" . According to 1 John 4:18 focusing on judgment and punishment is a lack of fully comprehending God's Love, Mercy, and Grace.

    "There is no fear in love [dread does not exist]. But perfect (complete, full-grown) love drives out fear, because fear involves [the expectation of divine] punishment, so the one who is afraid [of God’s judgment] is not perfected in love [has not grown into a sufficient understanding of God’s love]."
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  15. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    Scripture indicates that all will eventually come to know and confess Jesus as their Lord. This outcome Glorifies God and all that He set out to do, which was to restore the creation that Satan destroyed at the fall of Eden.

    All people have sinned.”-Rom 3:23

    “Mercy triumphs over judgment.”-James 2:13

    “Everyone will be purified.”-Mark 9:49

    “All will be drawn to Christ.”-John 12:32


    “All of creation will be reconciled back to God.”-Col 1:20

    “The Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. “-John 1:29


    “Every knee will bow, in love and adoration to the Lamb of God”.-Phil 2:10


    “Everyone will be restored.”-Luke 5:15


    “All will know the Lord “.-Hebrews 8:1


    “Every creature will praise and honor God forever!"-Revelation 5:13
     
  16. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Genesis 7:21-23
    (21) And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
    (22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
    (23) And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

    Genesis 19:24-25
    (24) Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
    (25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
    Genesis 19:28
    (28) And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

    Deuteronomy 20:16-18
    (16) But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
    (17) But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
    (18) That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
     
  17. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    What you have shared is a small portion of how God teaches the world His Grand plan of the Salvation of the world. We are no longer under the old covenant of keeping the law but are under the dispensation of Grace.

    According to dispensational theology, there are also seven ages:

    “Dispensational theology looks on the world and the history of Mankind as a household over which God is superintending the Outworking of His purpose and will. This outworking of His purpose can be seen by noting the various periods or stages of different economies whereby God deals with His work and Mankind in particular. These various stages or economies are called Dispensations. Their number may include as many as seven.


    1. Age of Innocence


    2. Age of Conscience

    3. Age of Human government

    4. Age of Promise

    5. Age of Law

    6. Age of Grace

    7. Age of Kingdom

    God deals with mankind through distinctive periods (ages and dispensations), these distinct periods, are unfolding to accomplish the salvation of each and every person. Galatians 1:4 teaches that Christ came to redeem the world from the present ‘evil age’. Ephesians 1:21 teaches that in God’s great power He came to rescue not only those in the present age but in the age to come. His greatness surpasses any other power or authority. The universe is in the process of growth. In the age to come (the future), all of creation will be reconciled to their Creator.
     
  18. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    More deflection you said "Christianity is unique in that 'God would never torture or burn those He loves.'" I posted scriptures which showed that God killed millions by drowning, 1000s by fire,100s or 1000s by the sword. The rest is just another unsupported opinion.
     
  19. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    They are your words not mine...

    The key is that unbelievers who choose eternity without love among others who are loveless are not in for an easy time.

    This is not something that God does, it is something they do and were warned about.

    God honours the desire to reject Love, and man lives with the consequences.
     
  20. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Am I in dialogue with you or Thomas Johnson (whoever he is)
     
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