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If the majority end up in ect

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by wendykvw, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I believe the only reason to allow evil, stemming from the abuse of free will, is so that we may learn to hate and shun it-and so to choose the good alone, the ultimate true good being God, Himself. So that we might learn that His wisdom and will are perfect-and worth heeding after all. That knowledge is a component, along with revelation and grace, in our turning to Him.
     
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  2. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I think this life affords us the time and knowledge to begin choosing now. And that knowledge includes the knowledge of good and evil, the direct, visceral experience of both so that we may learn to hate the one (evil) and run to the other (good), the good being fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. So that we may learn to do what Adam failed to do: to embrace God rather than dismiss Him. And if we're on that path, remaining in Him, and coming back if we've strayed, overcoming sin and doing His will by the Spirit in the overall sense, He'll finish the work in the next life that began here in this one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
  3. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    Uh huh, tell me again how justice is an evil.
     
  4. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    ect is a doctrinal idea (theory) based on certain bible verses but not taking into account all of the bible verses... including even from Christ Himself --

    "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Christ, in Matthew 10

    So, as we read in the famous John 3:16, if we are given eternal life, then we will not be destroyed, will not perish, in the second death --

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. -- John chapter 3

    So, listening to all of the verses that matter, we get it we are not like the devil and his angels that are already immortal and will therefore endure in that fire -- they will suffer ect because they will not perish there -- but human souls are not like them in a very key way: human souls do not already have eternal life until and unless it is given to us(!) (a change!)...so those consigned to hell will perish in that second death.

    It's a merciful death they will experience really. For the unrepentant who have rejected God, and Love. They would be dangerous to allow into a peaceful heaven, because they would continue to do evils, being unchanged.
     
  5. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    Yes, I agree with all of that and it would be clearly be good make that choice now in this life, not just to avoid the what would probably be a long and difficult purification and correction process in the next (assuming universalism is true) but more importantly so that we can live a life that's pleasing to God and enjoy a relationship with Him while here on earth. But I believe that if we do mess up on our first attempt, our education will continue and we'll all eventually pass.

    The alternative, it seems to me, of getting just one chance and that's it, is that God will have to change from the infinitely forgiving Father of scripture into a endlessly unforgiving and punitive monster, I would say, at the moment of our death if we didn't make the mark, and His promise to one day be 'all in all' will not be honoured.
     
  6. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Sounds like evil is demolished with fire rather than torment. Would that sum up your paradigm?
     
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I'd like to recommend a rather small work by Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar titled "Dare We Hope" in which he makes the case that there is nothing in Scripture or the historic teaching of the Church that says we cannot hope for the ultimate salvation of all (though we can never say that all WILL be saved). And regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with Balthasar, it should provide for thought provoking read.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  8. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    For myself a central message of Christianity is that God's on our side-all of us-and always has been. The main question is whether or not we'll eventually reciprocate. We sin because we're not yet totally sold out to Him. Other, lesser, created, things can still distract us and win our love above Him first above all else. To the extent that we finally love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves, our justice/righteousness is complete and our very purpose will be fulfilled. And our satisfaction, happiness, wholeness, would be absolute and uncompromised, incidentally.
     
  9. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Satan is no competition clearly of the creator of the universe. The Victory of Christ declares the end of human efforts to restore what the devil destroyed.
     
  10. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    A Great book.
     
  11. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    I think we're in complete agreement except on the question of whether death is the final cut off point or we're given a second chance. For me, there must be a second chance because God couldn't otherwise ever be 'all in all' - because clearly we don't all reciprocate His love in this life - and also because I don't believe that either of the possible alternatives, annihilation or something like eternal torment/separation, are compatible with a God of love. I could be wrong of course, but if I was and either ECT or Annihilationism is true, I would reject such a god anyway so that's a relatively easy acknowledgement for me to make - my beliefs would just change from how God is to how I think He should be. I don't think that's arrogance because He has commanded us to love and forgive our enemies, and I don't believe He would do anything less than that Himself. So if I'm wrong about that, then it just means that he is not God for me. This isn't so much a philosophical view for me though. I honestly believe scripture overwhelming supports universal restoration through a free turning to Christ but that's another topic I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
  12. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    Your question makes no sense to me alas.
     
  13. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Paul clearly states that only some are created for salvation. This idea of God being weak is approaching blasphemous...
     
  14. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    There's no question, simply pointing out that you are referring to a penal system as an evil. Prisons are not evil simply because prisones suffer, in fact suffering and evil are only superficially related. So your premise that hell would be "evil" is false on its face.
     
  15. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    Oh dear. Perhaps you'd like to quote me where I said the penal system is evil. Or are you just making things up again?

    Just to humour you, a prison sentence for an eternity with no parole and no rehabilitation, just one of torment, would be a evil but that's just a fiction you may believe in but one which is not possible under our judicial system, which is why I never referred to it.
     
  16. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    So now you make an assertion that assumes the case from the get-go. Great use of reason there, why bother building a case when we can just make declarations unsupported?
     
  17. BravoM

    BravoM Member

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    That is the way.
     
  18. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    I find it impossible to discuss anything with you.
     
  19. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    What is?
     
  20. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    You should stick to talking to reasonable people like me for instance.
     
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