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If the majority end up in ect

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by wendykvw, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How is this God honouring their desires?
     
  2. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, at least that is mutual.
     
  3. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Whatever influence Augustine or any other ancient teacher/leader/scholar etc. might have wielded in ancient times has long since been recognized and nullified. Modern bible scholars have access to virtually every known Bible manuscript with a touch on a keyboard.
    Not all patristic fathers taught "limited punishment." Here is 2 pages of 3 from the ECF I did on my own.

    Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
    "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
    • (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
    "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
    Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
    "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
    Justin Martyr
    "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
    • (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
    "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
    "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
    The Martyrdom of Polycarp
    "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
    • (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
    Mathetes
    "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
    Athenagoras
    "[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
    Theophilus of Antioch
    "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
    Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
    "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
    "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
    Tertullian
    "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
    • (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
    "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
    Hippolytus
    "Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).



     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What kind of nonsense is this? Can you read Moses' mind and know exactly what he meant? If not, why ask me such an absurd question? I don't adhere to your unscriptural "dispensation" theory.
    Your assumption that God "does nothing out of vindictive anger or hatred?" What was God thinking when He destroyed all life on earth and saved only Noah and his family? Sodom and Gomorrah, the cities of Canaan etc? How many times is God's anger mentioned in the O.T.? See e.g. Deut 31:17.

    Deuteronomy 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
    Have you ever read Jeremiah 13?
    Jeremiah 13:13-14
    (13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
    (14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Where does God say He will restore The people in Deut 31 and Jer 13?
     
  5. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perhaps off topic, and perhaps I am misunderstanding what Justin Martyr meant by 'recognized', when he said, "if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil". But the notion, that a slave to sin is able to change his heart to obedience by mere intellectual accumulation, is false.
     
  6. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    We don't know how much if any of the O.T. or N.T. Justin, or any other ECF, might have had so their knowledge might be limited.
     
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  7. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    Are those whose names are not found in the book of life destined to eternal damnation? If so, then why did Moses ask to have his name removed? Would Moses give up his inheritance by asking his name to be removed?

    "But I beg you to forgive them. If you don't, please wipe my name out of your book." Exodus 32:32 (CEV)

    If punishment is ECT, this is a problem. It is not problematic if Moses was asking to be punished temporarily. The Restoration view.

    God is not the devil (intense on destroying and inflicting pain), He is long-suffering and patient, unwilling that any perish.

    According to Christ; "I came not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous". The Lord of Lords came to rescue the unrighteous. The unrighteous are not created to remain apart from the Good Shepherd forever; He is continuously searching for the lost sheep. The Father is unwilling to give up on the wayward prodigals; when they return home, He throws a party. The pattern of grace is; patience, love, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and peace. All of these attributes are from our Lord and Savior, who is unwilling that any perish, but all come to repentance.



    But the free gift [of God] is not like the trespass [because the gift of grace overwhelms the fall of man]. For if many died by one man’s trespass [Adam’s sin], much more [abundantly] did God’s grace and the gift [that comes] by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to [benefit] the many.”

    -Romans 5:15 (AMP)
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  8. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    The only thing you have proven here is that there have always been different opinions throughout church history. You have included some of the western church fathers who predominantly taught ECT. It is very interesting knowing their history of violence and cruelty. Culture shapes tradition more so than anyone likes to admit.

    Proverbs 3:12

    For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights. (NASB)



    This theme of God’s discipline is compared to that of a father to a son as seen in both the Old and New Testaments and goes completely against the idea of God throwing people into hell for no purpose other than to inflict vengeance. Clement of Alexandria understood that God's punishments were not meant to exact vengeance, but was intended for the good of the person being punished.

    What father would torture his son non-stop? Worse yet, what father would continue to torture his son after the son was crying out to this father that he was sorry and wished to be forgiven?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  9. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    A typical neener, neener, neener you're wrong and I'm right! Am too. Nuh huh, response!
    Were the millions of people drowned in the flood corrected? Can you visualize mothers and fathers holding infants and small children over their heads, trying vainly to keep them from drowning? Were the thousands of people destroyed by fire corrected? Were the thousands killed when Israel entered Canaan, corrected?
     
  10. wendykvw

    wendykvw Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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    Actually this is what we agree on is God does not let evil win. God punishes and will if necessary remove that of which is evil. The examples you have given are earthy discipline. To assert that ECT is the final outcome is to portray God as incapable of restoring what the devil destroyed. What restoration asserts is that God knew before hand that the fall in the garden would enact and allow evil, but only for the appointed time.

    If Christ can’t save as many as Adam destroyed then Christ is weaker than Adam?
     
  11. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 +/- years ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
    EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
    The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    …..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

    EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
    Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
    The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.
     
  12. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Good point, I hadn't considered. But then, I wouldn't base much doctrine off what they said, then. (Not that you were; it was just a thought.)
     
  13. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I think the ECF can be informative but not necessarily decisive. For example Origen is often cited as teaching universal restoration but,
    Origen - De Principiis Book 1 -
    5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance6 and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this:
     
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  14. Greg Cheney

    Greg Cheney Member

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    No one "chooses to go to hell" (disclaimer: I believe the doctrine of conditional immortality); that is emotional rhetoric. The "broad road" is not labeled "hell" while the "narrow road" is labeled "eternal life" in their minds. As far as people that believe in after life are concerned, they think all roads lead to life - and they are wrong. It is not helpful to say they "wanted to choose hell" - though it is true that eternal death will be the consequence of their decision.
     
  15. Greg Cheney

    Greg Cheney Member

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    I agree God is not a torturer; however I believe the biblical explanation is the lost will be resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire which will result in suffering and death (some think there will be differences in severity based on the Lord's reference to fewer or more stripes) - and this death will be eternal (the second death), not eternal conscious torment. The punishment is eternal in consequence.
     
  16. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The lost fall victim to their own errors in this world. I know from personal experience. They are also victimized by the errors of others. Of the new heaven and earth, I know not. Jesus taught his disciples to pray: “Kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. God rescued some people. Like heaven might not be far away.
     
  17. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe in "universal restoration", but only as Scripture demonstrates it to mean. What are you referring to by it here —inclusive of Universal Salvation? I certainly don't include that to what I mean by "universal restoration", nor does @RickReads, apparently, either.
     
  18. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    False conclusion: suffering does NOT IMPLY torture, ie illegal or morally evil torment or every legally appointed judge is morally and legally deficient.

    Suffering caused by the righteous decision of a proper, duly appointed Judge is NOT TORTURE, ie, it is NOT illegal.

    IF you will contend that everlasting suffering does indeed count as torture when they could be let out of hell much earlier than forever, please consider the following about why hell must be eternal in nature by the choice of the damned themselves:

    Eternal hell due to the Unforgivable Sin;
    The satanic demons can't be forgiven because
    1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference or they cannot be defined as free.

    2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god, even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7 and Roman 1:18+ about those who love their sin more than the truth.

    This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners flung to the earth.

    They can't save themselves from the consequences of their decision to rebuke YHWH as a false GOD driven by evil and they have denied the one Person who could save them forever. OOPS...

    They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much but because when HE asked us to choose to be HIS Bride or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with though there would be legal and natural consequences...warnings which some ignored.
     
  19. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Where was that promise given and to whom?
     
  20. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    This pov is called 'TELLING THE STORY BADLY' which does not work when it is used to corrupt the truth and not just to amuse...
     
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