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If the majority end up in ect

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by wendykvw, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Not if our standards of justice can be said to mean anything at all. "Oh. but it's OK for God" kinda ruins the whole deal, doesn't it?

    Not as described by Damnationists.

    I ws thinking more along the lines of vicious and merciless, but of course those are attributes of justice on God's part.
     
  2. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    None of those examples included infinite torment, did they? God killed those people, as He has every right to do. He gives, He takes away, and ultimately everybody dies. Fair play. Eternal torment is a whole 'nother thing.
     
  3. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    True dat. For God so loved the world that most of the people who ever lived will be tortured forever. No smiley faces required.

    Really? Specify.

    Not demise, but eternal life under torture. Where do you put the smiley face on that?

    You haven't illustrated any , so you're just blathering.

    Yep, do you? Or do you feel the need to "explain away" a lot of the Bible to support your favorite doctrines?

    Yep. And again, do you? Or does it all have to run through a doctrinal filter to establish what it "really means"?

    Trsanslating to "That Chinaman has gone against my doctrine again! How dare he?"

    You take issue with that, do you? Why? Uou don't expect honorable behavior from God?

    Kills a man why? For fun? Bad. Because a man offended him? Bad. Self defence? OK. How about if a man tortures another man all his life because the other man had offended him? Good or bad?
     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The OT destructions were most certainly relevant to the people who experienced it.
    Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the NT?

    EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [kolasis] but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
    1 Cleenewerck, 1. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
    The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    …..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

    EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[2]
    Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal”
    The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
    What did Jesus say about "eternal punishment?"
    “aionios” occurs 107x in the N.T.
    “aionios” is translated world only 40 times in the N.T.[37%]
    “aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.[39%]
    “aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.[23%]
    Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, 26% of the total, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
    = = = = = = = = = =
    Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
    In the ten (10) following verses aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    …..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refer to something which is not eternal, e.g. “world,””age.” etc.
    However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 24 verses.
    …..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
    …..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal/forever/everlasting.”

    [1] Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας/lit. unto the eternity [aionas [PlMas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
    In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternity.
    [2] John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/aiona[lit. unto eternity]
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live forever” with “death.” If “live aiona” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiona” by definition here means “eternity.”
    [3] John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never
    [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [4]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should [not perish, but] have eternal [aionion] life.
    [5] John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
    In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [6]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen]I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
    [8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
    In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
    [9]John 6:27
    (27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
    [10]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “eis ton aion/lit. unto the eternity” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  5. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But exactly "[WHAT] is ok for God" to do?

    It is misrepresenting the facts, to say, for example, that God killing someone is the same as his creatures killing someone. God does not murder, but he takes life as he sees fit, and is altogether right and just to do so. We don't have that authority.

    What exactly is it, that 'damnationists' claim, that describes God as unjust?

    But vicious and merciless would then be part of how he deals justice, which is, since he is God, altogether just. That is, if God's attitude toward someone who sinned against him involved that sort of anger, it would be altogether fitting toward that particular person. Precise.

    God is not tame. Nor is he capricious.
     
  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Btw, I think the word is "torment", not that you care.

    See below, near your ever-so-kind word, "blathering".

    "torment", but...

    I did, with my example of God killing not being the same thing as man killing. If God killed without reason, as a madman or merely capriciously, he wouldn't be God anyway —the whole notion of God doing just as he says he does, is not up to us to judge, nor to define away. You want to be the arbiter of justice. Well, you are not up to the task. None of us is, when it comes to the deeds of the Almighty, the creator and owner of all things.

    Also, when you characterize him as if he created them for the mere purpose of condemning them —that is, when you scream at only the part of his plan where they are in eternal conscious torment, as if that is all he made them for— you do his Word injustice. And that, the very Word you claim (below) I misinterpret and misuse.

    Strange how I see you do doing that. If God says they are in eternal conscious torment, they are. It is YOU who must come up with something different from what it plainly says, in so many places.

    Unlike your own, no doubt. But I digress.
    Huh?

    Honorable? I'm beginning to think you don't think God is honorable, but who are you, to redefine what depends on God's very nature for definition?

    But, I don't take is issue with what MacDonald says, but with your use of it. I agree wholeheartedly with him. You have no basis for claiming that our claims concerning God and what he does make him dishonorable. The Bible does not depend on your notions of love and goodness.

    What do such questions have to do with God? This is ludicrous.

    But the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    I think it would be best to stop this kind of back and forth. It is not debate, but noise.
     
  7. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Scripture speaks of the present creation being destroyed by fire.

    Do you want a rerun of the spiritual struggle all over again ???

    Satan is a created being and he will not feature in the New Heaven and New Earth.

    It will be a new creation, not the same as last time. The Cross secured a completely new beginning.
     
  8. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    The creation is perishing along with this world. It must be replaced in order to restore perfection.
     
  9. Cockcrow

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    if Jesus died for everybody according to what Armenians and Free will people teach, then he failed because if that were true then most people that Jesus would have died for would still end up in Hell. I can see why people are confused because they believe in that horrible false gospel of Universalism that falsely states Jesus died so everyone in the whole world is now saved.

    the reality is that Jesus our Lord and savior's role and job all along was to die on the cross for the sins of his sheep/elect/children and this fact is affirmed over and over all throughout the New Testament, Jesus himself preached that many will go to Hell, few saved. On the cross fully accomplished salvation and eternal life for his people, he defeated death and now his people will live with him for eternity.
     
  10. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    As the propitiation of the world, the death of Christ could accomplish no less than making provision for all people past, present, and future.
     
  11. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    The wages of sin is death. But Christ shall make all people alive. What Adam did was bring death. Christ will bring life to the same group Adam condemned.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  12. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Islam teaches this as well. Christianity is unique in that a Savior who was God in human form came to declare victory over the penalty for sin which was death.
    Calvin insisted God only chose a few. Free will insists only a few will chose God. Universal restoration takes both of these views placing faith in God’s sovereignty God will chose everyone condemed through Adam.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  13. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Yes God is a Father and just as earthly fathers may remove or punish those who do not abide by the royal law of love they will be punished.

    If Moses can be punished by not being allowed to enter the promised land are we then to assume he is in eternal hell? Of course not.

    "For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
    Hebrews 12:6
     
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Now you are getting silly. I never said or implied that Moses was in Hell. When Jesus mentioned "Gehenna" He was talking about a place of fiery eternal punishment NOT a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. It never existed. There was a trash dump outside Jerusalem but NOT in Gehenna but the next valley over the Kidron valley.
    Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
    The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
    …..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
    ...
    Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.

    https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
    Jerusalem’s Garbage
    The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com


     
  15. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no other propitiation, for anyone.
     
  16. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    ¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
    = = = = =
    …..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
    …..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

    [1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
    Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
    …..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

    ”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    “But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    “… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    [2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Link:
    Gehinnom
    http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
    = = = = = = = = = =
    [3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
    "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
    Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
    • “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    [A fate worse than death. DA]
    …..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
    In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
    …..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

    Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
    …..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
    …..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
    ….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
    When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.
    "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
    Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16
     
  17. Cockcrow

    Cockcrow Member

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    to believe that everyone on Earth will be saved you would have to reject the teachings of Jesus Christ on Hell, eternal destruction, everlasting punishment, did Jesus lie when he warned over and over about Hell fire?
     
  18. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall saying that there was.
     
  19. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then, by Universal Restoration you mean plain Universalism, and not what I think is meant by the restoration of all things to God.
     
  20. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say everyone will be saved. I said the provision has been provided.
     
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