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If the majority end up in ect

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by wendykvw, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    What on earth does that mean and how does it relate to my post which was a simple question about three verses, which you haven't answered btw?
     
  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Read post #88

    Each one answered.
     
  3. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    That's not what I asked as you well know. I asked what on earth does this mean:

    and how does it relate to my question to you?
     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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  5. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Your argument centers around who is interpreting scripture correctly. This is based on the model which is dependent on your free will and your belief in ECT. The early church had various interpretations as well, there has never been a consensus. Each side bases its interpretations on presuppositions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  6. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Can you answer why Moses asked to have his name removed from God's book? Was Moses asking to be sent to hell? Exodus 32:32

    God punishes as a father to a son. He does nothing out of vindictive anger or hatred. My previous point is that God operates in dispensations. We no longer live in the Old Covenantal system, all nations are under the new covenant of Grace. The people removed from the earth from the flood and Sodom, are no longer here on earth, they are restored in Paradise based on the work of Christ.

    The letter of the law of the old covenant brought death to all, but the new covenant shall bring life to all. It is a process. Some in this life others in the next.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  7. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Good thing you found a version (paraphrase) that supported your soteriology!

    '10...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.'
    —Doesn't imply that they do so willingly or gladly, but that they will be unable to do otherwise.

    '13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

    “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
    for ever and ever!” '
    —Notice where the quote marks are, around the thing the creatures say. It does not say they will praise him forever, but that they acknowledge and attribute to him, that those are his forever.
     
  8. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    And where does it say that?

    No-one can proclaim Christ is Lord except through the Holy Spirit so what do you mean that they "are unable to do otherwise"?

    What??
     
  9. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    God never accepts forced or coerced love. What scripture your shared is testifying to is the defeat of the devil and his diabolical plan to estrange creation from their creator. This celebration that is being displayed is worthy of praise to the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

    Skepticism is nothing new, the nation of Isreal did not believe that Jesus was Himself God who came to redeem, not only Israel but the Gentile nations as well. I believe Christianity does the same, with the refusal to believe God fully capable of outwitting the devil.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  10. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    The way it relates is that I don't attribute evil to a loving God.

    That is an unacceptable thing to do...
     
  11. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    And did I? You make no sense to me at all.
     
  12. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    At the time they see him, post resurrection, mostly likely at the GWT, all bets are off. The operative principles of our temporal passage are no longer in play. The Spirit of God moving within a person is not needed for one to see he was wrong to reject God when God himself is right there in front of them, he whom no man can see and live. The burning power of his purity is enough to make them sag to their knees. But regret and terror is not repentance. I see no mention of their joy and satisfaction and happy worship at being condemned to perdition.

    We have had, here on this site, one who mockingly said, "Christ is Lord", and quoted our verse saying as you did there, (that no-one can proclaim it except through the Holy Spirit), and then that person said, "THERE! See? I said it!" It was to me obvious that he was not proclaiming that Christ is Lord; in fact, he was trying to do the very opposite.

    When those who have ultimately rejected Christ are included in the "every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord", and for that matter, those whose "knee shall bow", and even if they are included in the Revelation 5:13 worship, it is not a proclaiming, but an acknowledgement in front of The Truth, and, I believe, a terrified acknowledgement —not repentance, not regeneration, and certainly not salvation. They are undone, "without a leg to stand on."
     
  13. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    I didn't claim you did.

    Lets get back to a statement you made...

    Your assumption that Hell is evil attributes evil to God.

    Suffering can come from sin and not be initiated by God.

    He clearly spelled out the way of righteousness and it we do not follow it suffering can result - that doesn't make Him evil.

    Folks sinfully reject Jesus their whole lives and the consequences of this are clearly spelled out.

    He honours the desire of men and this can mean eternal separation from love in the company of the loveless. God does not create this - mans desires are permitted and honoured - this is for them Hell.
     
  14. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    Hold on, I don't assume that Hell is evil.

    Jesus said "aionios kolasis" ( temporary correction/pruning) so that's the hell I believe in. It's you who believe in a hell of eternal torment. Whether you see that as an evil or not is up to you but stop projecting onto me by saying that I attribute evil to God - that is yet another statement from you that makes no sense to me. I'm done with this silly conversation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Still posting the patently false narrative about "aionios kolasis" meaning "temporary correction/pruning?" This false narrative is propagated by folks who know nothing about koine Greek. The root word "kolazo" does mean "prune" but the derived word "kolasis" does not.
    Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 +/- years ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
    Note in Matt 25"46 below the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, translated "aionios" as "eternal" NOT "age."

    EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
    The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    …..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

    EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
    The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction,” see above. But according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” In 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one who has “kolasis” is not made perfect.

     
  16. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was right there with you, until I thought, why would he distance God from evil in the way he does? Does God need this defense? I don't hear God say, from your last paragraph there, that he "honours" the desire of men. I've heard from many others, such statements, that "God honors our free will so much that....", etc, But I don't hear any of that in the Bible. Where does that come from? God does not claim to relinquish control to anyone. God does claim that he works all things for good, or does all not mean all there? The Bible even says that God intended the evil that Joseph's brothers intended (and committed), for good.
     
  17. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not that I don't, like you, find the notion repulsive that one would force or coerce love, specially if it is said of God. But how in the world do you get that out of anything I've been saying? Would you say that God forced or coerced you to be born the first time? Why, if you had no knowledge of it until it is done, and God made you willing, changing your rebellious nature, would you consider it forced or coerced love?

    That is just a bit presumptuous, I think. How is anything God does, including predestining some for 'more common use', not "outwitting the devil"? Imagine the anger and frustration the Devil feels, knowing that the worst he can do only fits perfectly into God's plan.
     
  18. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    God work all things together for those who love God and are called according His purpose.

    Satan can only do what God permits - and this is ultimately for good.

    Romans 1
    24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    God relinquished control to their desires.
     
  19. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    You can thank Augustine for his inability to learn Greek. The patristic Greek Fathers who native language was Greek taught limited punishment for the purpose of restoration.
     
  20. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    I do not follow your logic. But thanks for the effort.
     
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