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Featured If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Yes.
     
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    ....


    No persuasion, no model needed. Simply turn to Yahuweh (God) for His Kingdom is here, (at hand), and listen to the Father in heaven, believe His Word, and trust Him.
     
  3. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Cool story, bro.
     
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  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Jesus Christ is the substitute. We are saved by Grace through faith.

    Meaning how we 'access' the Finished Work of Christ is through faith.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You just did. See bold and underlined.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe Universal Salvationism is not biblical. One example is the two thieves on the cross. Jesus did not accept the thief on the cross who rejected Him. Jesus only accepted the thief who defended Him. One thief showed loyalty the other showed disloyalty. God favors those who are loyal to Him.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While Jesus is our substitute for sin, I believe there is no such thing as believing in the finished work of Christ alone for salvation. 1 John 1:7 gives us the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice to our lives. We have to walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. James 2:18 says he will show you his faith by his works (i.e. works of faith). So works must be there as a part of our faith. This includes holy living or holiness to the Lord, as well. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). For those believers who did good works in His name were told to depart from Jesus because they also worked iniquity (or sin) (See Matthew 7:23).
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    You agree with the Bible, with our Father in heaven, and with our Shepherd Jesus -


    universal salvationism is anti-Biblical , not Biblical, yet many are deceived by it. (often because of someone they thought they loved who dies without ever repenting , without ever being saved ---- they cannot believe the truth that they are lost forever, they don't accept it, so they get a type of ocd and denial of the truth, grasping desparately for 'universal' or any other false gospel that offers them false hope for their 'friend' or even for themselves (since they don't repent themselves).
     
  9. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My Lutheran friend who is a priest told me forgivness allready happened to mankind. All we have to do is receive that forgiveness through faith.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Forgiveness comes in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Luke 24:47
    And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

    Romans 10:9-10
    9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

    Atonement explains the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ:

    Atonement in the Old Testament
    Certainly the most frequently mentioned means of atonement in the Old Testament were the blood sacrifices, dominating the use of the term by constant reference in the books of Leviticus and Numbers. Atonement needed to be made for everything from heinous crimes like idolatry (Num 16:47) to mistakes of intent, when the only sin was ignorance or error, not willful disobedience (Num 15:22-29).

    Day of Atonement
    The Day of Atonement was an annual day of repentance for the Old Testament people of Israel the rites for which are set forth in Leviticus chapter 16 (also see Exodus 30:10; Leviticus 23:27-31, 25:9; Numbers 29:7-11). It is described as a solemn fast, a Sabbath on which no food or drink could be consumed, and on which all work was forbidden. Sacrifices were offered by the high priest as an atonement for himself and for the people.

    The Bible calls the day Yom Hakippurim (Hebrew, Day of the Atonements), which the Jewish people continue to observe today as Yom Kippur.

    "Perhaps the heart of the Old Testament teaching on atonement is found in Leviticus 16, where the regulations for the Day of Atonement occur. Five characteristics relating to the ritual of the Day of Atonement are worthy of note because they are generally true of atonement as it is found throughout Scripture: (1) the sovereignty of God in atonement; (2) the purpose and result of making atonement; (3) the two goats emphasize two different things, and the burning another, about the removal of sin; (4) that Aaron had to make special sacrifice for himself; (5) the comprehensive quality of the act." (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, s.v. atonement).

    Atonement in the New Testament
    The New Testament presents the person and work of Christ as God's ultimate provision for atonement. The English word atonement is used to describe the New Testament concept of Christ presented as our reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18), as a propitiation (1 John 4:10), in giving his life as "a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:28), having poured out his blood "for the forgiveness of sins" (Matt. 26:28).

    "Particularly important for the full biblical picture of atonement as it is found in Christ is the sacrifice Aaron makes for himself and his family (Lev 16:11-14). Everyone, even the high priest, is guilty and needs atonement that can only be provided by God himself. The author of Hebrews emphasizes this point to make clear his doctrine of the purity of Christ as both the true and perfect sacrifice and the true and perfect priest who performs the ritual of atonement (8:3-6; 9:6-15). The Old Testament sacrifices are shown to be but shadows of the real sacrifice of Christ on the cross by the fact of Aaron's sinfulness; an imperfect high priest cannot offer a true sacrifice, just as the blood of bulls and goats could never truly pay for the offense of human sin or substitute for the shedding of human blood." (Baker's, s.v. atonement).
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What happened in that case?
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The check (the sacrifice) was written to pay the debt.

    We are bought and paid for with a price (1 Corinthians 6:20).

    God has purchased us with His own blood.

    "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).

    While many are quick to point out how we need to receive forgiveness individually by faith in Jesus (Which is true), they also need to point out that we also need to heed Scripture that says that we need to continue in the faith, continue God's grace, continue in his goodness, keep ourselves in the love of God, etc.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Psalms 51 shows that he needed to seek forgiveness with the Lord in order to be forgiven of sin. Forgiveness of sin is dealing with salvation.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    King David was not saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder.

    #1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

    #2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

    #3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

    #4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

    #5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

    #6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

    #7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7 tells us to walk in the light as a part of the blood of Jesus to cleanse us of all sin. This lines up with Proverbs 28:13 that says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

    #8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    People do have an issue with using 'punished' as if the Father is some vindictive sadist. That seems to be the straw man.

    But you actually addressed what penal substitution is with your statement "Jesus took the consequence of sin." That's penal substitution. The penalty for sin is death. Jesus suffered that death on our behalf.
     
  16. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    There is even a bigger question:

    If Jesus paid 100% of the debt I owned and will ever owe to God with the cross, what is there to forgive? The way the Bible describes and seems to define pure charitable forgiveness means there is no debt left for anyone to pay after it is forgiven. If you say: “Christ paid the debt”, than God did not forgive at least some of the debt?

    Looking at Matt 18: 21-35, because forgiveness is a transaction which requires the person forgiven to paly a part.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Prove it.
     
  18. AlexDofTX

    AlexDofTX Member

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    That may be, but not the point. Answering his question: we have to take own our sins in personal responsibility.
     
  19. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sounds like forgiveness is offered through repentance. Not like sins are allready forgiven.
     
  20. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hard to tell. At least he repented and was saved in the end.
     
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