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Featured If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's a question I have. I mean if everything is allready forgiven on the cross, why do I need to ask for forgiveness when I have sinned?
     
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  2. Peter J Barban

    Peter J Barban Well-Known Member

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    The answer will be more clear if you can answer the negative of this question: What will happen if I don't ask God for forgiveness?
     
  3. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If the sin is grave I don't know what happens. Maybe I lose salvation?
     
  4. Monksailor

    Monksailor Active Member Supporter

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    That is a good question, Zoidar, for those who you insist must first believe or accept penal substitution in your proposition. What exactly do you mean by "penal substitution?"
     
  5. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    If you have salvation you study God's word and are grateful for what Christ did for you. You walk in the light. God's word the Bible says,

    1 John 1
    5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I think for the same reason that I ask my wife for forgiveness. We have a union, and I do not fear that it might be broken. But we also have a communion. So if I sin against her, I should acknowledge that sin and ask for forgiveness.

    In the same way, I repent and ask God for forgiveness as a way of acknowledging that I’ve sinned. It doesn’t change our union, but it positively affects the communion.
     
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  7. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My understanding of PS is that Christ has taken the punishment of all sins, so sins are allready forgiven on the cross, even before we come to faith.
     
  8. Monksailor

    Monksailor Active Member Supporter

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    Hammster, That is exactly what I was thinking.
    The metaphor of of using marriage is a good way of showing the communal relationship. We have a covenant with our wife for life, to love, honor, cherish in sickness and in health, for better or worse, till death do us part, or something like that. Since none of us are perfect, that implies that we have pledged our forgiveness to them for life; yet, out of respect and honor and to maintain a healthy and happy relationship that we can grow in and relish we MUST apologize and and ask forgiveness many, many times. Actually and hopefully, this is emulated from our experiences/relationship with God BEFORE we were married but some are saved after marriage.

    Likewise, we each chose to enter into a covenant relationship with God (children of God, the Father and bond-servants of the Redeemer, Jesus) when we accept the gift from God of Jesus's Atonement of our sins.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  9. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you believe if you have salvation you can't commit a grave sin?
     
  10. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I believe that a saved Christian is someone who chose to follow Christ Who is the Light. We love Him because He first loved us.

    I need to get offline now.
     
  11. Monksailor

    Monksailor Active Member Supporter

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    Zoidar, Yes, I have been doing some research.
    I am not familiar with "penal substitution" but rather penal atonement or substitutionary death or propitiation of our sins as described here: "According to the Scriptures, sin must be paid for. 1 When Jesus Christ died, he suffered as a substitute in the place of and on behalf of fallen humanity. Christ's death made it possible for men and women to be declared righteous, based on their faith in Him. 2 Christ's death was not merely a statement against evil or an expression of love, but a payment that satisfied God's demand. Christ's death was necessary for several reasons."

    Pasted from <Substitutionary Atonement | Moody Bible Institute>
     
  12. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yet the marriage can be broken if you don't ask your wife for forgiveness. She may divorse you. Has she forgiven you if you don't care to ask her?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  13. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't know if that's a yes or no.
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Now you are going outside the scope of your question.
     
  15. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe... I understand the idea of comparing penal substitution to the situation in a marriage. But I believe the comparison is faulty, since there is no "pre-forgivness" in a marriage, which penal substitution teaches.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  16. Monksailor

    Monksailor Active Member Supporter

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    2 Peter 3:9 says: " The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." We MUST each individually "COME" and agree with God about our wretched situation and repent/change; enter into a covenant relationship; "In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” (1 Cor 11:25) and "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." (Heb 9:15)

    (verses pasted from Biblegateway.com-NIV)



    What do you mean by "grave" sin? As far as I know there is only one unforgivable sin.
     
  17. Monksailor

    Monksailor Active Member Supporter

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    When one VOWS in a marriage covenant to love, honor, and cherish for LIFE that is exactly what they are doing. You are "pre-forgiving." That is, unless one is actually convinced/deluded that they have actually found a perfect human being for a spouse.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I didn’t compare the two. I answered why, if we are forgiven, we still ask for forgiveness.
     
  19. PizzaAddict

    PizzaAddict New Member

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    You don't have to ask for forgivness or pray or even love God to be saved.

    It's good to forgive ask of forgivness from people you harm or were harming you to get out of hate and rage it caused .



    19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

    2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

    4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.



    They only needed to hear Jesus name , they didn't pray nor did baptism have anything to do with it . Paul also lay hands on them after they got baptized by Holy Spirit so laying hands on somebody doesn't do anything it's true literally only faith .
     
  20. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    As a general statement, I’ll say that I never figured out how penal substitutionary atonement qualifies as forgiveness. Nobody seems capable of explaining that.
     
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