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Featured If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    God desires to forgive sinners, but he cannot acquit their sin without compensation. It is via punishment of Jesus through which God forgives the sinner.

    I don't know about you, but it sounds perfectly logical to me. I can recommend some links that may help you if you are still struggling.
     
  2. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Pardoned would mean acceptance of forgiveness, you accept that He will take the fall for you. Christ died, the Father accepted the offering. Therefore that is what the Father sees is Christ (your hidden within)
    Except, guess what, Christ has become your mediator so that when you reoffend He has to be merciful in covering your repetitions as He instills into the renewed brain what He had to learn in getting along with the Father.
     
  3. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    Because after conversion/baptism, where all our (already happened) sins are washed away, and we are cleansed....

    Like Peter...(this just came to me at this moment) -->

    Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

    6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

    7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

    8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

    Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

    9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

    10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean..."
    John 13 NIV


    Though He teaches 2 lessons here, one of the lessons is that we are already bathed (conversion/baptism), and so our whole body is clean...yet...in time, our feet need washing again. It's thought (Catholics I know think) that communion continues to help wash our feet.

    But...suppose you run off into the mud, in a major way, and then...soon enough, it's not only your feet that are dirty.

    See?

    Confession --> ? (Does what?)

    What does confession do?

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    (1rst John chapter 1)

    There, we can see what confession does, or that is, how He responds when we confess (that we have run off into the mud, and gotten filthy).

    He cleans us.
     
  4. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yeah, but why does He need to acquit our sins? The penalty for those sins is allready gone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  5. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Fear Him who can not only kill the flesh but can kill the soul too, I think refers to Christ. Ask Him
     
  6. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, this is what I'm saying. I can't understand it logically. That's one reason I have my doubts of the accuracy of penal substitution.
     
  7. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    It’s more understandable from the OT when looking at the first fruit offerings that needed to be accepted before forgiveness was given for the following year. But NT it’s once for all, the offering accepted, the first fruit of the new creation. Author of salvation. What more do you need to know?
     
  8. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks for your effort in explaining! I think what you say is beautiful and I agree with what you say about us getting cleansed through forgiveness. The question is still there, why we need to be cleansed from sins to be saved, if the penalty for those sins allready is gone. I mean for a sanctification process yes, but what part could cleansing play in salvation?
     
  9. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe then I need to read about that in OT. I would be thankful if you could give me some passages.

    Mind you, I believe Jesus died for our sins, that he is a sinoffering, I just doubt about Christ death being a punishment and payment for our sins to the Father. I doubt it's a legal contract. I believe Jesus conquered sin to offer us forgiveness.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  10. LoreneDD

    LoreneDD Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    One of the best outlines I've seen in a long time was in an email from E-manna @ lsm . org

    Acts 2:1 And as the day of Pentecost was being fulfilled,
    they were all together in the same place. (4) And they
    were all filled with the Holy Spirit...
    Leviticus 23:10
    ...you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits
    of your harvest to the priest;
    Leviticus 23:15-16
    And you shall count for
    yourselves...from the day that you brought the sheaf...
    You shall count fifty days until the day after the seventh
    Sabbath; then you shall present a new meal offering to
    Jehovah [the feast of Harvest].

    The word "Pentecost" means fiftieth. It was the fiftieth day
    from the Lord's resurrection, seven weeks in between,
    counting from the second day after the Passover on which the
    Lord was crucified. It was the fulfillment of the feast of
    Weeks Deuteronomy 16:10, which was also called the feast of
    Harvest, counting from the day of offering a sheaf of the
    firstfruits of the harvest unto the morrow after the seventh
    Sabbath. The offering of a sheaf of the firstfruits was a
    type of the resurrected Christ offered to God on the day of
    His resurrection 1 Corinthians 15:20.

    The offering of Christ as the firstfruit in resurrection
    involves His secret ascension to the Father. When Mary
    wanted to touch Him, He said to her, "Do not touch Me, for I
    have not yet ascended to the Father..." John 20:17. On the
    day of His resurrection the Lord ascended to the Father.
    This was a secret ascension, forty days prior to His public
    ascension in the sight of His disciples. On the day of
    resurrection, early in the morning, He ascended to satisfy
    the Father. The freshness of His resurrection was first for
    the Father's enjoyment, as the firstfruit of the harvest was
    brought first to God in type. On the day of His resurrection
    the Lord went to the heavens to offer Himself as the
    firstfruit of God's harvest for the satisfaction of God the
    Father. That was a secret ascension. The day of Pentecost
    was fifty days later.

    Acts 2:1
    And as the day of Pentecost was being fulfilled,
    they were all together in the same place.
    Acts 2:4
    And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit...
    Galatians 3:14
    In order that the blessing of Abraham might
    come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive
    the promise of the Spirit through faith.


    Pentecost was the fulfillment of the feast of Weeks, and
    this feast was also called the feast of Harvest Exodus 23:16
    On that day there was the outpouring of the all-
    inclusive Spirit. This Spirit is the rich produce of the
    processed Triune God given by Him to His chosen people as
    the blessing of the gospel.
    Galatians 3:14 indicates that the 'unique blessing' of the gospel
    is not heaven or even the forgiveness of sins;
    the unique blessing of the gospel is the Spirit,
    even the all-inclusive Spirit of the processed Triune God.
    This Spirit as the blessing of the gospel is
    given to us so that we may enjoy the all-inclusive Christ,
    who is the embodiment of the Triune God, as our good land.

    The feast of Harvest typifies the enjoyment of the rich
    produce brought in by the resurrected Christ. This rich
    produce is the all-inclusive Spirit of the processed Triune
    God given by Him to His chosen people as the blessing of the
    gospel so that they may enjoy the all-inclusive Christ (the
    very embodiment of the Triune God) as their good land. This
    signifies that the believers, through receiving the
    bountiful Spirit on the day of Pentecost, not only have
    entered into the good land, but also have participated in
    the bountiful riches of the all-inclusive Christ in His
    resurrection and ascension as God's full allotment in His
    New Testament economy.

    1 Corinthians 5:7-8
    ...for our Passover, Christ, also has been
    sacrificed.
    So then let us keep the feast, not with
    old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and evil, but
    with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
    2 Corinthians 3:17
    And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the
    Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

    In typology we have both the feast of Passover and the feast
    of Pentecost, called the feast of Weeks and also the feast
    of Harvest. The feast of Harvest typifies the enjoyment of
    Christ in His resurrection, whereas the Passover typifies
    Christ as the Lamb of God in His crucifixion. The Passover,
    therefore, refers to the crucifixion of Christ. Christ's
    crucifixion has become a feast, called the feast of
    Passover. In this feast we enjoy Christ in His crucifixion
    as the redeeming Lamb. Three days after His crucifixion,
    Christ rose up from among the dead. Fifty days later, the
    ascended Christ poured Himself out upon His believers as the
    all-inclusive Spirit, that is, as the ultimate consummation
    of the Triune God. That pouring out of the Spirit is the
    enjoyment of the harvest.

    In the Old Testament we have the Passover, the offering of a
    sheaf of the firstfruit of the harvest, and then the feast
    of Harvest, Pentecost. On the Passover Christ was crucified
    for our redemption so that we might enjoy Him. On the day of
    Christ's resurrection there was the fulfillment of the type
    of the firstfruit of the harvest. Then fifty days later, on
    the day of Pentecost, there was the enjoyment of the harvest
    of the rich produce of the good land. That was a type of
    Christ becoming the full enjoyment to His redeemed people as
    the life-giving Spirit poured out upon them from the
    heavens.

    Acts 2:1
    And as the day of Pentecost was being fulfilled...
    Acts 2:4
    And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit...
    Philippians 1:19
    For I know that for me this will turn out to
    salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of
    the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

    To enjoy the essential Spirit is to have the enjoyment as
    the sheaf of the firstfruit. But to enjoy the economical
    Spirit is to have the enjoyment of Christ as the harvest in
    an open, public way. We should not neglect the enjoyment of
    Christ as the harvest. Some may want to be like Mary, who
    met with the Lord on the morning of His resurrection, or at
    least like the disciples, who met with Him in the evening.
    We all need the full enjoyment of Christ as the feast of
    Harvest.

    The enjoyment of Christ did not become full until He, as the
    Head of the church, poured Himself out upon His Body as the
    economical Spirit. Through this outpouring on the day of
    Pentecost, the enjoyment of Christ became full.

    In Philippians 1:19 Paul speaks of the bountiful supply of
    the Spirit of Jesus Christ. The supply we receive as the
    firstfruit of the harvest is fresh, but it is not bountiful.
    Only when we have the harvest do we have the bountiful
    supply. This means that not until the Spirit was poured out
    economically upon the Body of Christ did the Lord's people
    have the full enjoyment of Christ. When the economical
    Spirit was poured out upon the Body of Christ on the day of
    Pentecost, the enjoyment of Christ became bountiful. Now the
    supply is the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus
    Christ, and this Spirit is the blessing of the gospel.
     
  11. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    If punishment is meted out to anybody for man's sin then by definition we are not forgiven; someone else has simply paid our debt for us.

    Penal Substitution allows for God's justice but it comes at the cost of eliminating the possibility of genuine forgiveness.
     
  12. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Exactly my reasoning...
     
  13. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    Ok then.
     
  14. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I will sleep on this (is that an english expression?). Be back tomorrow. Still PS doesn't make sense to me, but if it makes sense to you, great! God bless everyone here, and thanks for your kindness!
     
  15. GraceBro

    GraceBro Member

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    You don't. There is nowhere in the New Covenant where a Christian is told to ask forgiveness. In fact, all of your sins were forgiven at the cross. The Bible clearly states that "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them (2 Corinthians 5:19)." I recommend asking yourself some questions:
    • If you need to ask for forgiveness, what sins is God still remembering and what sacrifice are you going to perform that God requires and accepts given the fact that Hebrews 10:17-18 says, "Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary"?
    • What blood are you shedding that is acceptable to God since Hebrews 9:22 says, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness"?
    • How can you, "Forgive as the Lord forgave you (Colossians 3:13)," if you still need to ask for forgiveness for your sins?
    • Are you saying that you are not blessed because Romans 4:8 says, "Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them”?
    • Are you believing that your sins cause you to lose fellowship with God when the Bible says, "God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord (1 Corinthians 1:9)"?
    • Was the Apostle lying to us when he said that "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:38-39)"?
    It is not an act of faith to ask for something you already have received. If you do not believe you have received it, there is something wrong with what you are believing. I advise you to ask God to reteach His truths about your identity in Christ and be open to changing your mind about everything you've been taught up to this point. It is the only way you will be able to begin to trust the Holy Spirit and let Him guide you from within and lead you into all truth. Grace and Peace, my friend.
     
  16. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Yes.
     
  17. ilovejcsog

    ilovejcsog The way....

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    delete
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It's not about outdoing what the Lord has done:
    God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).
    Telling people that all they need to do is trust in the finished work of Christ can easily lead people to treat His grace as a license to sin on some level.
    They can not worry about lying, or looking at women in lust, and or swearing on occasion throughout the week and they can easily think they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

    However, the Bible teaches:

    #1. Grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21).

    #2. The reason Christ died for us was for the purpose that He might sanctify and cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27).

    #3. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).​

    The Bible teaches that grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, theft, etc.) leads to spiritual death (Galatians 5:19-21). Jesus said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. Jesus said if we look upon a woman in lust, we can be cast bodily into hell fire. John essentially says if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us (1 John 3:15). John says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

    I don't believe we share the same understanding on God's grace. The Bible does not teach that future sin is forgiven us. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. How can you confess of sin if your future sin is forgiven? The should be no need to confess of sin if all sin is forgiven. It's illogical.

    Sorry, I do not believe that is what the Bible teaches. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
    Also, again, the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice to our life is 1 John 1:7, and Hebrews 5:9. You have to either ignore these verses or change them in order to make your belief work here.

    Being free from the power of sin is to be able to overcome it. I am talking primarily here about overcoming grievous sin (like lying, lusting, theft, hate, etc. that leads to spiritual death) here and not minor transgressions or faults of character (that does not lead to spiritual death).

    Believers can live in Christ today and be victors over the enemy. They don't have to wait until they are dead.

    Lots of things. You are going to have to be more specific. What passage are you referring to?

    Again, David was not saved while he was in his sins of adultery and murder. The Bible says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).
    Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer.
    There is no getting around these kinds of verses.
     
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  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You are going to have to be more specific about what you are getting at to prove your case that David was saved while he was in his sins. I am not out to prove your belief for you. Also, how do you explain the verses I brought forth that appears to refutes the idea that David was not saved while he was in his sins of adultery and murder?
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, I think the best way is to look at it as a form of an analogy or parable. I think a person writing a check to pay off another person's debt is a great analogy here. The debt in one sense is paid because the person has provided a means to take care of their debt problem. The check is good. The debt is technically paid because they have a check in their hands to pay off their debt. But they need to take action to send the check to their creditors so as to receive the forgiveness of debt personally for their own lives. From the person offering the gift of paying off the other person's debt, in his mind, the other person's debts are paid because he provided a solution. But the one giving the gift does realize that the other person does have to apply the check personally to their lives in order for them to truly pay off their debt.
     
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