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Featured If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    I don't think the theory of penal substitution is true at all. I think the better model is the theory of recapitulation which is:

    In the recapitulation view of the atonement, Christ is seen as the new Adam who succeeds where Adam failed. Christ undoes the wrong that Adam did and, because of his union with humanity,leads humankind on to eternal life.
    Source: Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia

    What Is the Eastern Orthodox View of the Atonement?
     
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  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Substitutionary Atonement Verses:

    1. And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6).
    2. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed (1 Peter 2:24).
    3. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20).
    4. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8).
    5. Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29).
    6. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
    7. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us (1 Corinthians 5:7).
    8. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13).
    9. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep (John 10:11).
    10. Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:21-22).



    A Chronology of What Christ Did For Us As A Part of Redemption:

    #1. Christ takes on mankind's sin in the garden:
    Jesus was taking on our sin in the Garden of Gethsemane when He took the cup from the Father. For in that cup had all our sins within it. That is why Jesus recoiled in not wanting to take the cup and to let it pass from Him. That cup had all of the world's sins. Jesus sweat great drops of blood because he was under great strain over taking on such a burden all at once. A parallel of Christ's cup in the Garden can be found with the cup that Joseph put in Benjamin's sack (Back in Genesis). Both were cups of guilt and both cups were taken as a means to pay the price for guilt.

    #2. Christ is punished for our sins:
    Jesus is wounded for our transgressions, and by his stripes (whip marks) we are healed. Jesus took on the consequences of the punishment for sin by his enduring suffering on our behalf. He was tortured brutally. But it was a part of God's plan to heal us of our sin condition.

    #3. Christ pays the penalty for our sins:
    Jesus dies on the cross (satisfying the requirements for payment for sin in our place; For the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23). Blood was also required to be spilled to make for an atonement for sin. For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin (Hebrews 9:22).

    #4. Christ overcomes the penalty of sin (Which is death) for us:
    Jesus rises from the grave three days later and conquers the penalty of death and He is the first fruits of the resurrection. Jesus is our everlasting Father because one day the saints will be resurrected after the power of His resurrection and likeness (i.e. by His DNA). Jesus will one day give His servants or followers eternal life through His resurrection.

    #5. Jesus ascends to the Father and secures His position as High Priest for us:
    Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him, and that He needs to ascend to the Father. I believe this was a part of God's plan in completing redemption for us. Jesus entered the holy temple up in Heaven by His blood and is now able to intercede on our behalf as a Heavenly High Priest between God the Father and mankind now. Jesus is now our mediator between God and man.

    "For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24) (NLT).

    "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus," (Hebrews 10:19) (BSB).

    14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16).


    Conclusion:

    Jesus was making a way or provision for salvation as a gift for mankind. A gift that they would have to receive and be responsible with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In the OT, sacrifices always went along with seeking forgiveness with the Lord.
    So while an atonement was made for sin, it was always in conjunction with asking God for forgiveness of their sin. One did not work without the other. One needed to have both in order for their sin to truly be atoned for. Think of it like a contract. God is saying in his contract that he paid the price for your sin on a corporate level (i.e. all man's sin is paid provisionally), but your individual personal forgiveness is provisional and or conditioned upon your seeking forgiveness with the Lord and in believing the gospel.

    Examples:

    1. Blank check (corporate forgiveness), cashing the check to pay creditors (personal individual forgiveness).
    2. Bail is offered (corporate forgiveness), but the prisoner has to sign the bail document for it to be legal, and they have to leave the prison to be set free (personal individual forgiveness).
    3. Wife forgives husband for cheating on her while living apart from each other (corporate forgiveness), but husband has to make amends with his wife in order for the relationship to be reconciled where they can live and love each other closely again (personal individual forgiveness).
    4. Company sues a man for infringement rights on their product. The man tries to make amends by paying everything that is owed to them for any damages done (corporate forgiveness). The man who infringed upon the rights of the company takes it a step further and apologizes to the CEO (because he was a friend), and to the board of directors and sends them gifts with an apology letter to each of them (personal individual forgiveness).
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  4. tturt

    tturt Senior Veteran

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    We're to be aware of our heart condition after salvation.

    The prayer that Yeshua taught includes "Forgive us the wrongs we have done as we ourselves
    release forgiveness to those who have wronged us." Matt 6

    "But don’t let the passion of your emotions lead you to sin! Don’t let anger control you or be fuel for revenge, not for even a day." EPh 4:26

    "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup." I Cor 11

    "Husbands, you in turn must treat your wives with tenderness, viewing them as feminine partners who deserve to be honored, for they are co-heirs with you of the “divine grace of life,” so that nothing will hinder your prayers." I Pet 3:7.

    "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Jam 5:16

    When we sin as believers, we dont lose our salvation but we do change our relationship with God til we repent.

    Wonder why a believer would have a problem repenting
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  5. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    For a lot of Christians, the idea of Our Lord's atoning work is not controversial. Even the idea of a substitutionary atonement is totally acceptable.

    The point of disagreement for most Christians is the notion of a penal substitution.

    My point is that it's easy to find verses in Sacred Scripture which suggest a substitution. But the idea of that substitution being penal in nature has scant support in Sacred Scripture. Far less than one might think.
     
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  6. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    The world is still infected with sin, and so is your body. The purpose of confessing sin is to trust God to cleanse the sin so it can be removed from your thought and emotion pathway.

    not sure how this applies to penal substitution, could never pick the shell with the peanut under it anyway. Probably in the guy's sleeve.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Penal:
    /ˈpēn(ə)l/
    adjective
    1. relating to, used for, or prescribing the punishment of offenders under the legal system.

    10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
    (Isaiah 53:10-11).

    1. It pleased the Lord to bruise him and make his soul an offering for sin.
    2. He shall "justify" many because he shall bear their iniquities. The word "justify" is mentioned here.

    "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us,..." (Galatians 3:13).

    "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9).

    10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." (Romans 5:10-11).

    "...for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." (Romans 5:16).

    1. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.
    2. Christ was made a curse for us.
    3. We are "justified" by his blood.
    4. We are saved from wrath through Him.
    5. When we were enemies of God, we were "reconciled" to God by the death of his Son.
    6. The judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.

    This is clear to me that Jesus died on my behalf as an offering for sin, atonement, and to satisfy God's justice. Variations of the word "justified" are used several times in reference to what Christ did for us. Words like "Justify," "Justified" and "justification" are words that are dealing with justice.
     
  8. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    This same can be applied to Satisfaction Theory without changing a word.

    Separately, your quotations from Sacred Scripture lack a clear and unambiguous statement that Our Lord was considered juridically guilty of our sins and punished accordingly.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    ""Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)."

    We are saved by wrath through Him.
    Logic dictates that if Jesus did not die, then God's wrath against sin would have been carried out on sinners. But seeing Jesus took on the punishment for men's sins (it took away any wrath from God against sin done towards sinners).

    If there was no wrath of God, then Jesus did not need to suffer and or die for our sins. It pleased God to crush the Son.

    "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin," (Isaiah 53:10).
     
  10. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Again, those passages offer no direct statement that Our Lord was punished for our sins. Those very same passages are often cited by adherents of Christus Victor and Satisfaction Theory.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Uh, Scripture says, "he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities." (Isaiah 53:5).
     
  12. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Indeed it does. That section there, however, does not say that God considered Our Lord guilty of our sins and so He punished Him accordingly.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But the text says "He was wounded for our transgressions" do you not understand"

    He was wounded. Who was doing the wounding?

    Well, Isaiah says that the Lord was pleased to crush the Son. What does that mean to you?
     
  14. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    The persons doing the wounding is beside the point.

    The point is that passage is used to support many interpretive models of Our Lord’s redemptive work.

    Interestingly, though with respect, I note that adherents of other models are well aware of how open to interpretation those passages are. My observation has been that it’s mostly just the believers of PSA who don’t see how the texts can be interpreted in other ways.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    If I tell you that, "the dog jumps over the fence", how many ways can you interpret that?

    Isaiah says the Lord was pleased to crush the Son.
    Is not "the Lord" in this instance talking about God the Father?
     
  16. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    If the passages you had quoted heretofore were as plainly worded as “a dog jumped over a fence”, I don’t think anybody would disagree with you.

    The fact remains, however, that those passages have been interpreted in a wide variety of ways. It’s not as cut and dried as a lot of PSA adherents seem to believe. In the passages quoted so far, a clear statement that God the Father considered Our Lord literally guilty of our sins and punished Him accordingly is missing.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No, it's not missing. I already showed the verses.

    My encouragement for you is to pray to Jesus (alone) on whether PSA is true and seek the Scriptures again (without any biased motive in you desiring it to not be true). I would encourage all here who are in doubt of the Substitutionary Atonement to pray about it with the Lord and to ask God to reveal the truth to to you all on this (and not what ye prefer to see).

    Anyways, blessings to you in the Lord today (even if we disagree on this topic in the Bible).
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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