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Featured If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Monksailor

    Monksailor Active Member Supporter

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    Regardless of the marriage metaphor, if one has truly repented of their sinful nature and become "a new creation in Christ" when they sin, just like Adam and Eve they will "hide" in an assortment of ways from God, being convicted of their trespass of the covenant which they have entered with God. By NO MEANS is this a legalistic proposition. We have a gracious and merciful Lord, but such should never be taken for granted or exploited. The Holy Spirit will prick us. We need to embrace the Holy Spirit we now have within and be as hospitable as we can to it; giving it as much space and control as we can, for through such come the most magnificent blessings and power of the Lord. 1 John 1:9 says. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." I have learned that this is something WE need, not God. We will punish ourselves out of guilt for sin and deprive ourselves of God's love and blessings. I think this verse is here for us to remind ourselves that ONLY Christ could earn God's forgiveness and to stop trying to earn it ourselves; to just accept God's GRACE.
     
  2. Monksailor

    Monksailor Active Member Supporter

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    I am gone. Things to do elsewhere. May you arrive in the Truth of God's Word, and no one else's.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Usually the issue I come across is that Catholics try to understand through a Catholic lens. It comes out looking distorted.
     
  4. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Grave sin like David Bathsheba.
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else.
     
  6. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Once saved asking for forgivness then has nothing to do with salvation, but to do with keeping a good relationship?
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe in a variation of Penal Substitution. Christ did die for men's sins. He died in our place. There is no denying that Scripture teaches this.

    "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5).

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." (1 Peter 2:24).

    Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

    "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21).

    Jesus took on our sins in the Garden. The cup that He took from the Father, had all of mankind's sins within it. He who knew no sin, became sin for us. He took on our sin, and died in our place for the punishment of sin. This is the central core of why Jesus died on the cross. It is at the heart as to why He is our Savior. The cross does not make any sense if Jesus did not die for our sins (with Him paying the penalty and price for our sins).

    God is now able to forgive us our sins on the basis that sin is paid for.

    Where I differ with Protestants on "Penal Substitution" or the "Imputation of Christ's sacrifice to our life" is that this sacrifice is applied by not only just a belief in the Savior, but it is applied by "walking in the light as He is in the light." 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. "Walking in the light" is loving your brother as per 1 John 2:9-11. 1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother (i.e. the opposite of loving your brother), we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So there is no such thing as a believer thinking they can sin and still be saved just because they have a belief alone on Jesus. It doesn't work like that. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Most do not like that part that we have to obey Him as a part of eternal life.

    Anyways, to answer your question:

    Question:

    If everything is already forgiven on the cross, why do I need to ask for forgiveness when I have sinned?

    Answer:

    What happened at the cross was provisional corporate redemption so as to offer man the free gift of salvation (Which includes being faithful or responsible in taking care of that gift).

    Asking for for forgiveness is individual redemption or forgiveness. It is the condition of applying the gift of salvation personally to one's life.

    Example: If Bob wrote a check to pay off Rick's financial debt, and Bob told Rick that he has provided a payment for him to pay off his debt, the solution of debt is provided for. But Rick needs to use the check in order to pay off his creditors in whom he is debt with. Rick needs to apply the payment personally to his own life by taking action with the solution he is given. His debt is paid, but in order for him to be debt free on a personal level, he needs to use the check in the right way. If Rick just held on to the check or if he spent on things to put himself even further in debt, that would not resolve his debt issue. Yet, the check was intended to pay off his debt. This is sort of like what the Son did for us. He provided a payment for sin. He died in our place. But it is up to us if we want to receive His free love gift and continue with using that gift within our daily lives until death.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  8. renniks

    renniks Active Member

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    I don't think this really fits very well with the question, tho. Most people aren't going to be willing to pre-forgive adultery, which is what blatant sin is, according to God himself. When his people turned to other gods, he calls them adulterers. We might not worship idols of stone, but we can and do worship idols of our own making.
    Now, as far as the OP, I don't think Penal Substitution is wrong, it's just incomplete. The gospel is not only about our salvation, it's also about our transformation. We continue to confess our sins because that is what takes us forward into deeper relationship with Jesus, and the reality is, we are either moving forward or backwards. Who wants to move backwards and have to struggle with the same old sins year after year?
     
  9. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's great Dave to hear you have this great love for Christ in your heart! :) God bless!
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  10. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?
    Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living, did not shed His blood and die on a cross for "un-repentance".
     
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  11. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think this comes close to my belief. Though, I don't believe the Father punished Jesus, but that Jesus took the consequence of sin.
     
  12. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    Here we have the root of the problem you have with P.S.

    Everything was not already forgiven on the cross according to P,S.

    I don't know anyone but universal salvation types who believe that it was.

    That goes for Calvinists as well as Arminians and pretty much all other groups as well.

    Not intending to turn this into a thread dwelling on Calvinism. But with regard to Calvinism related to their doctrine of election - they are often charged with something along the lines of "The elect are forgiven already - so why preach the gospel at all since everyone of the elect is forgiven already?"

    As with your conception of P.S. in general - this is simply not true.

    All men (elect or not) are considered by God as enemies of God and children of wrath up until the moment they have exercised saving faith and are justified before God. Even hard line 5-point Calvinists rightly believe and teach that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It was about paying the price for our sin.
    Jesus was a sacrifice for our sin.
    Punishment of sin was laid upon the Son for our sin.

    "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." (Isaiah 53:10).

     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    You don't "need" to ask forgiveness. What is needed is repentance. True repentance.
     
  15. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Christ's sacrifice provided the way for salvation and it is a free gift ... but one needs to accept (take hold of) the gift. When one accepts the gift (Jesus) and trusts (faith) in Him ... then one confesses their sins, receives forgiveness and then He begins His work in them helping them to overcome sin ... sanctification ... and this is a life long process.

    John 14:6

    6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I don't believe we share the same view on repentance. Here is...

    A Biblical Case For Repentance:

    At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

    Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

    Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

    #1. Acts 2:38,
    The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
    Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
    New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

    #2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

    #3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

    (a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
    (b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

    #4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

    #5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

    #6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
    "Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

    #7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

    "I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

    In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

    #8. Luke 10:13 says,
    "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

    #9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

    #10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


    Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
    (But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

    "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

    13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

    Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
     
  17. AlexDofTX

    AlexDofTX Member

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    Personal responsibility. This is what the proponents of universal salvation miss. Christ died for all, but we have to take personal responsibility for our own sins to receive the benefit of his salvation.
     
  18. JM

    JM Predestinarian Supporter

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    We are saved by Christ through the instrumentality of faith. Faith receives Christ.

    Yours in the Lord,

    jm
     
  19. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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  20. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    There is A LOT MORE that the heresy of universal salvation miss.
    Like MOST OF GOD'S WORD, AUTHORITY, POWER and GOSPEL OF SALVATION IN JESUS.

    By embracing a lie, a lie of another instead of Yahuweh the One True Creator,
    the lie of babylon,
    they embrace the enemy , and are found opposed to Jesus.
     
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