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Featured If penal substitution is true, why do I have to ask for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Then we have something to offer on the 'altar' more than our High Priest Jesus Christ?

    Is not walking and living in the Spirit by the Grace of God as well? Jesus saved us from the penalty of sin, He is saving us from the power of sin and He will ultimately in the Resurrection make us free of sin?

    What happened before David repented?
     
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  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Something happened before David repented.
     
  3. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Na, PS is the Father punishing Jesus for our sins. I believe sin by itself bear the consequence of death. I believe Jesus conquered Satan and sin by his death and resurrection. Therefor Jesus can rightly forgive any sinner who ask him.
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    PSA is Christ taking on the penaly of the sin due us. The penalty for sin is death (that's in the Bible) and Jesus died for our sins.
    And Jesus took on that consequence which is death on a cross.
    Indeed.
    He is Righteous making Him the Perfect Sacrifice for our sins, and He paid the penalty for our sins.

    It's in the Bible:

    Romans 5: NASB
    1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

    6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
     
  5. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    "Everything" is not already forgiven.
    Rom 3:25 "whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,"
    When we were saved, we confessed our past sins, previously committed. Therefore upon being saved we still need to confess our present sins since no one is without sin.
     
  6. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    If that were true then we would be faced with the problem expressed in the O.P.

    Namely - how can God cast those He has forgiven of their sins into Hell for eternity? The answer is that He can't and won't.

    While I do agree that the atonement extends to all of mankind, as opposed to the Calvinist's doctrine of limited atonement - I believe that forgiveness itself extends only to those who receive Jesus' work in a personal way.
     
  7. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, justified NOW by His blood. I believe after repentance, not before.
     
  8. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    One thing that can be helpful (I see some helpful things already in some early posts I read), is to read the parable of the Prodigal in full, and notice more which one hasn't yet, or hasn't thought of lately. He was originally alive, a son of his father.... right? Notice though the conclusion and the description of him being "dead" and then restored and "alive" "again"!

    We need this whole chapter really, because look:

    3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

    Already a sheep to begin with, and then lost, and then repenting, and thus restored.

    Luke 15 NIV

    One way to know when one needs to confess is to pay attention to that feeling of having done wrong, and not to ignore it or put it aside, but then to confess.

    To show fruits of repentance means one will be noticeably changed also, which has to be real change inside. Already when we confess, we get the amazing grace of being cleansed, and restored. But we still have a need to avoid temptations, pray for help (the Lord's prayer), and walk in the Spirit, instead of the flesh.
     
  9. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The cross makes it possible for us to receive forgiveness through repentance. It doesn't force forgiveness on those who don't want it.
     
  10. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    Actually, PSA teaches that Christ suffered the penalty sin deserved, and the only way the believer may have his sin pardoned is if they are united to him by faith.

    Christ provided an atonement, our faith applies that atonement. Does this make sense?
     
  11. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    I guess you could look at it like family. Kids always say sorry when they do something wrong. Are never in danger of being toss out from the house by Dad lol. You know what I mean lol. Who would not say sorry if you did something wrong to your parents? I don't of any

    We are family He IS our Father
     
  12. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    People have these perfectly reasonable ideas, but they should not think that somehow the words from Christ in the gospels or epistles about confession/repentance are somehow optional, since they heard some doctrine they liked -- they shouldn't think then they can just ignore the additional truths.
     
  13. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    That sounds rather like Christus Victor. I rather like that model, though I find Satisfaction Theory more logical.

    As for PSA, it doesn't offer forgiveness; it offers debt-consolidation. If Our Lord took our punishment for our sins then our sins are not forgiven. The punishment was simply applied to somebody else. But that still isn't forgiveness. I like your posts in this thread. They're all pretty good.
     
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  14. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't know what the satisfaction theory teaches.
     
  15. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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  16. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ok, but why does sin have to be pardoned if the punishment is taken?
     
  17. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    Going all the way back to your question, consider: before Christ, one had to confess and offer sacrifice, both.

    But because of Christ, we now need only to confess (sincerely of course, and with faith) to get the same forgiveness. (and...He has become our High Priest) See? The confession part is not optional, but you no longer need to offer sacrifices of animals for atonement. It's amazing grace how He does forgive those that humble themselves to confess. Those of us that sinned much, we are very grateful.
     
  18. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course being forgiven makes you greatly thankful. But I don't understand why a sin punished needs to be forgiven.
     
  19. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    It is punishment for Jesus, it is pardon for us.
     
  20. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes I understand the idea. Just can't understand it logically. Of course everything can't be understood logically...

    If I have a friend sentenced to prison. I take the punishment in his place, then he will go free. I take his punishment because I have forgiven him. The punishment itself is not the forgiveness, it's a consequence of me forgiving him. But in PS the consequence of taking of his punishment gives him the opportunity to be forgiven. From what? The punishment is allready taken? How can there be something to forgive?

    I think it makes more sense of PS if Christ forgave everyone on the cross. But then again, why would I then need to ask for forgiveness?
     
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