If God knows everything, why do we need to pray?

[tonychanyt]

Matthew 6:

7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

If God knows everything, why do we need to pray?

James 4:

2b. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

It is a relationship talking to God in prayers. What kinds of things are you asking? What are your motives? By our asking and God's answering, we interact with God in a relationship. We learn from God in our prayers. Paul described a more mature way to pray in Philippians 4:

6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

Don't just ask, but give thanks to God. Praise God's work in our lives.

Jesus continued to offer a model prayer in Matthew 6:

12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

It is meant to be a daily affair, establishing a prayer life for the Christian. Prayer is a major way we practice the relationship between God and us. Jesus Prayed, and the apostles prayed. This is one way we get in touch with God.

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

This kind of prayer changes our thinking and behaviors toward others.

Do we need to be specific in our prayers?

Yes, we praise God spontaneously throughout the day. At the end of the day, we thank God, item by item, for the blessings we received that day. We ask God to forgive us, again, item by item.

The model prayer is not meant to be a strict jacket. Acts 9:

40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Peter was being succinct in this prayer.

Another example in 1 Samuel 1:

13 Hannah was praying in her heart, and her lips were moving but her voice was not heard.

Hannah was barren and prayed for a child. She gave birth to a son, Samuel, whose name means "God has heard"

Romans 8:

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

There are different ways that we can pray depending on our circumstances. It's not the formalities of prayers; it is our prayer life through which we get to know God better and better

Why do we pray?

By praying to God, we talk to God. We grow in Christ.

See also Whatever you ask IN MY NAME.

 

[RDKirk]

By prayer, we are participating in the spiritual realm in God's activity. Sometimes it's participation in His benevolence to us, more often it's intended to carry out the good works He has assigned to us.

God knows everything, but angels and demons do not. Our prayer is our participation within the spiritual realm--their realm--in God's work. Prayer authorizes angels and binds demons as we do the good work of making God's will manifest on earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The standard answer is that He knows everything that is going to happen. He knows there are going to be these needs and that prayers will be issued forth. He also knows what He will do. Under this concept, all of history from eternity to eternity is a book that has already been written from the beginning. It is sitting on God's bed stand. Some ask, "Why, then, do we pray?" God knows people will ask this, which will cause some not to pray. Whatever scenario we can rationalize, He knows it beforehand.

 

[John Mullally]

Matthew 6:


If God knows everything, why do we need to pray?

James 4:


It is a relationship talking to God in prayers. What kinds of things are you asking? What are your motives? By our asking and God's answering, we interact with God in a relationship. We learn from God in our prayers. Paul described a more mature way to pray in Philippians 4:


Don't just ask, but give thanks to God. Praise God's work in our lives.

Jesus continued to offer a model prayer in Matthew 6:


It is meant to be a daily affair, establishing a prayer life for the Christian. Prayer is a major way we practice the relationship between God and us. Jesus Prayed, and the apostles prayed. This is one way we get in touch with God.


This kind of prayer changes our thinking and behaviors toward others.

Do we need to be specific in our prayers?

Yes, we praise God spontaneously throughout the day. At the end of the day, we thank God, item by item, for the blessings we received that day. We ask God to forgive us, again, item by item.

The model prayer is not meant to be a strict jacket. Acts 9:


Peter was being succinct in this prayer.

Another example in 1 Samuel 1:


Hannah was barren and prayed for a child. She gave birth to a son, Samuel, whose name means "God has heard"

Romans 8:


There are different ways that we can pray depending on our circumstances. It's not the formalities of prayers; it is our prayer life through which we get to know God better and better

Why do we pray?

By praying to God, we talk to God. We grow in Christ.

See also Whatever you ask IN MY NAME.

We pray because prayer changes things.

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.​

​

​

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

The greatest Theologian ever produced by America answers:



In a sermon titled “The Most High, a Prayer-Hearing God,” Jonathan Edwards gave two reasons why God requires prayer:



The Most High A Prayer-Hearing God -- Jonathan Edwards



With respect to God, prayer is but a sensible acknowledgement of our dependence on him to his glory. As he hath made all things for his own glory, so he will be glorified and acknowledged by his creatures; and it is fit that he should require this of those who would be subjects of his mercy . . . [it] is a suitable acknowledgement of our dependence on the power and mercy of God for that which we need, and but a suitable honor paid to the great Author and Fountain of all good.

With respect to ourselves, God requires prayer of us . . . Fervent prayer many ways tends to prepare the heart. Hereby is excited a sense of our need . . . whereby the mind is more prepared to prize [his mercy] . . . Our prayer to God may excite in us a suitable sense and consideration of our dependence on God for the mercy we ask, and a suitable exercise of faith in God’s sufficiency, so that we may be prepared to glorify his name when the mercy is received.1

All that God does is for His glory first and for our benefit second. We pray because God commands us to pray, because it glorifies Him, and because it benefits us.


And RC Sproul is always useful in these matters:

Does Prayer Change God’s Mind?

Does prayer make any difference? Does it really change anything? Someone once asked me that question, only in a slightly different manner: “Does prayer change G

www.ligonier.org

In Him,

Bill

 

[BNR32FAN]

Matthew 6:


If God knows everything, why do we need to pray?

James 4:


It is a relationship talking to God in prayers. What kinds of things are you asking? What are your motives? By our asking and God's answering, we interact with God in a relationship. We learn from God in our prayers. Paul described a more mature way to pray in Philippians 4:


Don't just ask, but give thanks to God. Praise God's work in our lives.

Jesus continued to offer a model prayer in Matthew 6:


It is meant to be a daily affair, establishing a prayer life for the Christian. Prayer is a major way we practice the relationship between God and us. Jesus Prayed, and the apostles prayed. This is one way we get in touch with God.


This kind of prayer changes our thinking and behaviors toward others.

Do we need to be specific in our prayers?

Yes, we praise God spontaneously throughout the day. At the end of the day, we thank God, item by item, for the blessings we received that day. We ask God to forgive us, again, item by item.

The model prayer is not meant to be a strict jacket. Acts 9:


Peter was being succinct in this prayer.

Another example in 1 Samuel 1:


Hannah was barren and prayed for a child. She gave birth to a son, Samuel, whose name means "God has heard"

Romans 8:


There are different ways that we can pray depending on our circumstances. It's not the formalities of prayers; it is our prayer life through which we get to know God better and better

Why do we pray?

By praying to God, we talk to God. We grow in Christ.

See also Whatever you ask IN MY NAME.

I rarely pray out loud, I usually pray silently in my head.

 

[Mark Quayle]

He accomplishes his ends by use of means, among which is, his people praying.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He accomplishes his ends by use of means, among which is, his people praying.

Amen I’d like to share another story of an answered prayer that I find miraculous and it also pertains to our conversation about predestination. I apologize it’s a bit long so please bear with me. Before I came to Christ I was 38 years old, never married with no kids. All of my friends were married by now so their going out partying days were pretty much over and I found myself in a situation where I didn’t really have any friends to hang out with anymore. So I didn’t go out much anymore because going to clubs & bars wasn’t very appealing by myself. I began to get very lonely and I began to get scared that I would die alone with no wife, no kids, nobody. I still had my brother & sister but they were both married and had families of their own and my parents were still alive and I began to feel like the black sheep of the family. The one that just couldn’t get things to come together. My life was go to work, come home, smoke some marijuana, eat dinner, watch tv or maybe play a video game then go to bed and repeat the whole process the next day, and the next, and the next. The loneliness got so bad that I would often find myself crying when I was by myself at work or when I was driving, and I’m not the crying type. One day after work I was playing a game on my iPhone and I met a girl named Gail on the game I was playing. I kept playing the game everyday and she played everyday to so we became friends. She was a 19 year old Filipino girl who lived in the Philippines. Sometimes we’d text on an app called Line. She was a Roman Catholic, very conservative, goodie two shoes, type who always followed the rules and did what she was supposed to do and I was pretty much the opposite. She was attending college studying to become a dentist. Over time the more I learned about her I began to develop a crush on her. Now I’m a 38 year old man and she’s a 19 year old girl and while I might not have been a Christian I did have some morals and I had no intention of trying to have a relationship with a 19 year old girl especially one on the other side of the planet. So I began to notice that everything seemed to just be perfect in her life and my life was a complete wreck. And I asked myself why is her life so perfect and I’m twice her age and I still can’t seem to get anything going right in my life? Then it dawned on me, why should God lift a finger to help me? What have I ever done to deserve any help from Him? Gail was a believer and a follower of Christ, I was a heathen, I cussed like a sailor, I drank, did drugs, I was a fornicator. I decided that I’ve been living this way all my life and it isn’t working, I have to make a change in my life or my it’s is going to continue exactly the way it’s been going. So I decided to start going to church and start serving God. I was so broke I didn’t even have any “church clothes”. So I sold my washer & dryer since the apartment I was in didn’t even have connections for them so I could buy some decent clothes to wear to church. I decided that I wanted to find a Filipino church because thru my talks with Gail I began to develop a fondness of the Filipino culture. Filipinos are not like Americans at least not like we are now. They have a higher moral standard than most Americans today, they’re very conservative and almost old fashioned comparable to what Americans were like in the 1950s and I wanted to find a girl like that. I’ve always been attracted to oriental girls but I always felt like there was always too much of a cultural and religious difference for me, but when I learned that most Filipinos are Christians I became interested in trying to find one and have a relationship with her. So I thought I’d try to go to a Filipino church and change my life by turning to God and maybe I might find a nice Filipino girl there. So I found a church not far away and I went to an evening sermon. I was super nervous being a white guy going to a Filipino church thinking these people are gonna be thinking what is this guy doing here? But they were very welcoming and as scared as I was I felt like I have to do this. So I attended and one of the brothers, brother Rolly helped me by giving me a Bible and helped me find the passage we were reading. I enjoyed the sermon the pastor was really good. So I kept coming back. I began volunteering to help out by doing work around the church and I soon became almost obsessed with working at the church. I quickly became good friends with the pastor, pastor Bong. He’s a great man and I love him with all my heart. So I kept attending the church I made a lot of friends, began attending Bible studies, then on February 28 2013 I devoted my life to serving Christ. I still hadn’t found the right woman yet. I kept praying asking The Lord to help me find a nice beautiful Filipino girl, someone within 10 years of my age, it didn’t matter to me if she had kids or not. After about a year and a half of attending the church I got a message on facebook from a pretty Filipino girl that said “hey cutie”. I didn’t recognize her, I thought maybe she’s a friend of Gail’s or maybe she knows someone from my church so I replied. I asked her if we had met and she said no. She said didn’t know Gail or anyone from my church and my first thought was why is this person messaging me? A lot of friend from church had tried to hook me up with some of their relatives in the Philippines and I was like no I’m not interested in trying to have a relationship with someone on the other side of the planet. So I was like why is this person messaging me if she doesn’t know me or anybody that I know? So my first reaction was I’m not talking to this person, I don’t talk to people on facebook that I don’t know. Then I thought about my prayer so I looked at her profile info. She was really pretty, she was 29 years old, I was 39. So i thought maybe I should talk to her because it’s strange that a Filipino girl that I don’t know and doesn’t know anyone that I know who fits the description of someone I’ve been praying to meet would message me just out of nowhere. So we began chatting. After about 10 months of texting back & forth everyday I asked her if I could come meet her on my vacation. She said yes. Six months later I went to the Philippines and met her and her family and her two daughters. I proposed to her on Oct 12 2016 at Panglao beach and she said yes. One year later she came to the US with her two daughters and we got married. Since then we’ve had a son together and I praise the Lord with all my heart for the love He has given me. He granted my prayers and I’ll praise His Holy name forever. Now this is what I believe that actually took place here. I believe The Lord put me in that situation before I came to Him. In all that pain and sorrow and loneliness He backed me into a corner where the only way out was thru Him. But I believe I had to make a choice and He knew what that choice was going to be. I could’ve chosen the path that led to devastation and destruction or I could’ve chosen the path to salvation. He set it all up. I never would’ve wanted to marry a Filipino girl if I hadn’t met Gail. I believe He arranged that meeting as well. I believe He knew the path He was setting me on and knew exactly where it would lead me to. Now if it wasn’t for the passages I quoted you earlier I’d probably believe in predestination because of what I believe God did in my life. Because from what I see that He did in my life it certainly appears that way but I have to apply what I read in the scriptures to that life lesson. And what I see in the scriptures is that despite His efforts to save people not everyone makes the same choice I made. If they did then I would believe in predestination because I wouldn’t have any reason not to. I could certainly apply that theology to my life experience but I can’t just go off of my life experience without applying what the scriptures teach. So I have to ask myself did I have a choice or not? Well it’s hard to say just going by my life experience but if God tried to save people that didn’t comply then I would have to conclude that my situation was no different and the choice I made did have an impact on the outcome. Anyway I’m sorry this was so long but I just thought it fit the topic of the OP and our discussion both at the same time.

 

[John Mullally]

He accomplishes his ends by use of means, among which is, his people praying.

Perhaps God's ends (in His Sovereign choice) have an element of being open-ended. In Matthew 6.10, Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven (where there is no sin, or sickness). The fact that Jesus commanded his disciples to pray that indicates that is God's desire. And yet, we don't see that happening yet. So that shows that what God desires do not necessarily happen even after 2000 years.

What are God's ends? Perhaps God's chooses His ends (in his Sovereignty) to be dependent on peoples' choices.

From scripture I view His ends as somewhat open-ended as we see from 1 Timothy 2:4 that God desires all people be saved even though other scripture shows many are not.. Calvinists desperately argue that the verse merely states that God desires all types of people to be saved (even though no translations say such),, but then looking at 1 Timothy 4:10 we see that that God is the Savior of everyone. Given that God is only the Savior of those He wants to save, 1 Timothy 2.4 must be speaking that God does indeed desire all people be saved. Thus, God's ends must be reliant on something other than God's desire, which from other scriptures I would argue is peoples choice to believe and obey - which God does not puppet.

FYI: I view scriptures that speak of predestination as not talking about particular individuals, but about the class of people who put their faith in Christ - which choice God leaves to His creation. This is termed "corporate election".

 

[Mark Quayle]

Amen I’d like to share another story of an answered prayer that I find miraculous and it also pertains to our conversation about predestination. I apologize it’s a bit long so please bear with me. Before I came to Christ I was 38 years old, never married with no kids. All of my friends were married by now so their going out partying days were pretty much over and I found myself in a situation where I didn’t really have any friends to hang out with anymore. So I didn’t go out much anymore because going to clubs & bars wasn’t very appealing by myself. I began to get very lonely and I began to get scared that I would die alone with no wife, no kids, nobody. I still had my brother & sister but they were both married and had families of their own and my parents were still alive and I began to feel like the black sheep of the family. The one that just couldn’t get things to come together. My life was go to work, come home, smoke some marijuana, eat dinner, watch tv or maybe play a video game then go to bed and repeat the whole process the next day, and the next, and the next. The loneliness got so bad that I would often find myself crying when I was by myself at work or when I was driving, and I’m not the crying type. One day after work I was playing a game on my iPhone and I met a girl named Gail on the game I was playing. I kept playing the game everyday and she played everyday to so we became friends. She was a 19 year old Filipino girl who lived in the Philippines. Sometimes we’d text on an app called Line. She was a Roman Catholic, very conservative, goodie two shoes, type who always followed the rules and did what she was supposed to do and I was pretty much the opposite. She was attending college studying to become a dentist. Over time the more I learned about her I began to develop a crush on her. Now I’m a 38 year old man and she’s a 19 year old girl and while I might not have been a Christian I did have some morals and I had no intention of trying to have a relationship with a 19 year old girl especially one on the other side of the planet. So I began to notice that everything seemed to just be perfect in her life and my life was a complete wreck. And I asked myself why is her life so perfect and I’m twice her age and I still can’t seem to get anything going right in my life? Then it dawned on me, why should God lift a finger to help me? What have I ever done to deserve any help from Him? Gail was a believer and a follower of Christ, I was a heathen, I cussed like a sailor, I drank, did drugs, I was a fornicator. I decided that I’ve been living this way all my life and it isn’t working, I have to make a change in my life or my it’s is going to continue exactly the way it’s been going. So I decided to start going to church and start serving God. I was so broke I didn’t even have any “church clothes”. So I sold my washer & dryer since the apartment I was in didn’t even have connections for them so I could buy some decent clothes to wear to church. I decided that I wanted to find a Filipino church because thru my talks with Gail I began to develop a fondness of the Filipino culture. Filipinos are not like Americans at least not like we are now. They have a higher moral standard than most Americans today, they’re very conservative and almost old fashioned comparable to what Americans were like in the 1950s and I wanted to find a girl like that. I’ve always been attracted to oriental girls but I always felt like there was always too much of a cultural and religious difference for me, but when I learned that most Filipinos are Christians I became interested in trying to find one and have a relationship with her. So I thought I’d try to go to a Filipino church and change my life by turning to God and maybe I might find a nice Filipino girl there. So I found a church not far away and I went to an evening sermon. I was super nervous being a white guy going to a Filipino church thinking these people are gonna be thinking what is this guy doing here? But they were very welcoming and as scared as I was I felt like I have to do this. So I attended and one of the brothers, brother Rolly helped me by giving me a Bible and helped me find the passage we were reading. I enjoyed the sermon the pastor was really good. So I kept coming back. I began volunteering to help out by doing work around the church and I soon became almost obsessed with working at the church. I quickly became good friends with the pastor, pastor Bong. He’s a great man and I love him with all my heart. So I kept attending the church I made a lot of friends, began attending Bible studies, then on February 28 2013 I devoted my life to serving Christ. I still hadn’t found the right woman yet. I kept praying asking The Lord to help me find a nice beautiful Filipino girl, someone within 10 years of my age, it didn’t matter to me if she had kids or not. After about a year and a half of attending the church I got a message on facebook from a pretty Filipino girl that said “hey cutie”. I didn’t recognize her, I thought maybe she’s a friend of Gail’s or maybe she knows someone from my church so I replied. I asked her if we had met and she said no. She said didn’t know Gail or anyone from my church and my first thought was why is this person messaging me? A lot of friend from church had tried to hook me up with some of their relatives in the Philippines and I was like no I’m not interested in trying to have a relationship with someone on the other side of the planet. So I was like why is this person messaging me if she doesn’t know me or anybody that I know? So my first reaction was I’m not talking to this person, I don’t talk to people on facebook that I don’t know. Then I thought about my prayer so I looked at her profile info. She was really pretty, she was 29 years old, I was 39. So i thought maybe I should talk to her because it’s strange that a Filipino girl that I don’t know and doesn’t know anyone that I know who fits the description of someone I’ve been praying to meet would message me just out of nowhere. So we began chatting. After about 10 months of texting back & forth everyday I asked her if I could come meet her on my vacation. She said yes. Six months later I went to the Philippines and met her and her family and her two daughters. I proposed to her on Oct 12 2016 at Panglao beach and she said yes. One year later she came to the US with her two daughters and we got married. Since then we’ve had a son together and I praise the Lord with all my heart for the love He has given me. He granted my prayers and I’ll praise His Holy name forever. Now this is what I believe that actually took place here. I believe The Lord put me in that situation before I came to Him. In all that pain and sorrow and loneliness He backed me into a corner where the only way out was thru Him. But I believe I had to make a choice and He knew what that choice was going to be. I could’ve chosen the path that led to devastation and destruction or I could’ve chosen the path to salvation. He set it all up. I never would’ve wanted to marry a Filipino girl if I hadn’t met Gail. I believe He arranged that meeting as well. I believe He knew the path He was setting me on and knew exactly where it would lead me to. Now if it wasn’t for the passages I quoted you earlier I’d probably believe in predestination because of what I believe God did in my life. Because from what I see that He did in my life it certainly appears that way but I have to apply what I read in the scriptures to that life lesson. And what I see in the scriptures is that despite His efforts to save people not everyone makes the same choice I made. If they did then I would believe in predestination because I wouldn’t have any reason not to. I could certainly apply that theology to my life experience but I can’t just go off of my life experience without applying what the scriptures teach. So I have to ask myself did I have a choice or not? Well it’s hard to say just going by my life experience but if God tried to save people that didn’t comply then I would have to conclude that my situation was no different and the choice I made did have an impact on the outcome. Anyway I’m sorry this was so long but I just thought it fit the topic of the OP and our discussion both at the same time.

Don't be sorry. I very much enjoyed reading it. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

The thought keeps coming to me that this is a point-of-view thing. You see what God does, in presenting options to people towards life vs death, in offering opportunities to them to choose, in every fork-in-the-road of time/sequence, as God actually leaving the outcome as open-ended. (To me, at least, that implies that God did not actually know what would happen at every juncture, when he created what started all this. I can't get around that. And if God knew when he created, he thus intended —predestined) You, therefore, (again, 'to me'), believe that mere chance comes into play, even though you deny the notion that God didn't know.

The logical implications of your POV, then, (again, 'to me'), are, a God who does not know and thus not omniscient, is not particular, is not necessarily able to accomplish everything he set out to do and thus is not omnipotent, must 'fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants' to get things done, 'reacts to' instead of 'causing' his creation —logically self-contradictory, and so on.

Your continued assumption that predestination denies choice shows itself in your thinking there, but the assumption is faulty. Your notion that your choices having an impact also denies predestination, is also logically incongruous —not only is your ability to choose established by God, but the very reality of your choices is, too! This denies, (again, 'to me'), that what we do in any way changes what God has decreed would happen, but accomplishes what God decreed would happen. Thus, not only does God determine all things, but what we choose and what we do also determines all things within the scope of our influence (and no, I don't mean by that, that our determining is necessarily according to our intent, but only that it does have an effect.)

 

[Mark Quayle]

Perhaps God's ends (in His Sovereign choice) have an element of being open-ended. In Matthew 6.10, Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven (where there is no sin, or sickness). The fact that Jesus commanded his disciples to pray that indicates that is God's desire. And yet, we don't see that happening yet. So that shows that what God desires do not necessarily happen even after 2000 years.

What are God's ends? Perhaps God's chooses His ends (in his Sovereignty) to be dependent on peoples' choices.

From scripture I view His ends as somewhat open-ended as we see from 1 Timothy 2:4 that God desires all people be saved even though other scripture shows many are not.. Calvinists desperately argue that the verse merely states that God desires all types of people to be saved (even though no translations say such),, but then looking at 1 Timothy 4:10 we see that that God is the Savior of everyone. Given that God is only the Savior of those He wants to save, 1 Timothy 2.4 must be speaking that God does indeed desire all people be saved. Thus, God's ends must be reliant on something other than God's desire, which from other scriptures I would argue is peoples choice to believe and obey - which God does not puppet.

FYI: I view scriptures that speak of predestination as not talking about particular individuals, but about the class of people who put their faith in Christ - which choice God leaves to His creation. This is termed "corporate election".

As always, if God knew (being omniscient) every detail of what would result of his creating, yet created anyway, God INTENDED every detail that would result of his creating. Now if you can show that god is not First Cause, and that there are details he did not know of, then our conversation is over, because we would no longer be talking about God.

But we've been here before.

 

[BNR32FAN]

(To me, at least, that implies that God did not actually know what would happen at every juncture, when he created what started all this. I can't get around that. And if God knew when he created, he thus intended —predestined) You, therefore, (again, 'to me'), believe that mere chance comes into play, even though you deny the notion that God didn't know

I don’t see why free choice would imply that God didn’t know what was going to transpire. I think the root of the difference between our perspectives is what love is. I believe the purpose for God creating this world was to cultivate people who would love Him. I don’t know if you agree with this statement but I believe that’s why free will was absolutely necessary and why there is a randomness in salvation. What do you think, do you think God created the world to cultivate people who would love Him? If not what would be your reason for Him creating the world?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The logical implications of your POV, then, (again, 'to me'), are, a God who does not know and thus not omniscient, is not particular, is not necessarily able to accomplish everything he set out to do and thus is not omnipotent, must 'fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants' to get things done, 'reacts to' instead of 'causing' his creation —logically self-contradictory, and so on.

I don’t see how God would not be able to see the results of a free will population. Since He is omnipresent and omniscient He exists in all time simultaneously and knows everything. Free will doesn’t change this or create any problem with it. I don’t understand how your coming to the conclusion that God would not be able to see every single nanosecond of what would take place from beginning to end.

As far as His omnipotence again that would bring us to the purpose for which He created the world. We have to keep in mind why did He create us? What’s the purpose? I believe the purpose was for us to love Him. How can love exist without consciousness and free will and what value can love have without consciousness and free will? God could’ve created us to do whatever He wanted but when it comes to love that carries with it what makes love so valuable. If you could’ve created a potion that would make your wife love you no matter what, would that love be of the same value to you as the love you have now? I’m assuming your married but if not just take it as a hypothetical question.

So when it comes to God’s omnipotency and His sovereignty, they aren’t diminished at all if His intention was to create people who would love Him of their own free will because the absence of free will completely nullifies the value of love and therefore completely negates the very purpose for which He created the world. So free will in this case would play an absolutely crucial role in His purpose for creating the world. Now if you believe He created it for some other purpose then this is completely irrelevant so I think we need to contemplate His purpose for creating the world in order to understand His plan and how He would go about achieving that purpose.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your continued assumption that predestination denies choice shows itself in your thinking there, but the assumption is faulty. Your notion that your choices having an impact also denies predestination, is also logically incongruous —not only is your ability to choose established by God, but the very reality of your choices is, too!

Ok here your making our choices predestined in that God has decreed or dictated our choices which is not actually a choice at all if there is no other possible option. If you remove the presence of an alternate option then there is no choice. You can’t have a choice if God has dictated that you will certainly chose a specific option because it’s completely removed any other option. If there is only one option then there is no choice.

This denies, (again, 'to me'), that what we do in any way changes what God has decreed would happen, but accomplishes what God decreed would happen. Thus, not only does God determine all things, but what we choose and what we do also determines all things within the scope of our influence (and no, I don't mean by that, that our determining is necessarily according to our intent, but only that it does have an effect.)

Ok your first statement here is incorrect because you’re implying that God wouldn’t have known the outcome. Nothing that we can do will ever remove any of God’s attributes. The problem with this perspective is that your saying that God dictated the outcome which means there are no alternative options which means there are no choices. If God dictates our choices then there are no alternative options. Again you can’t have a choice if there is only one option. What you’re saying here is comparable to saying that if someone is locked in a steel room with one door that he has several choices on which way to exit the room. He has no choice but to exit from the only door available because there are no alternative options.

So the way that you are defining predestination is actually dictation which is the removal of alternative options hence nothing to choose from.

 

[John Mullally]

As always, if God knew (being omniscient) every detail of what would result of his creating, yet created anyway, God INTENDED every detail that would result of his creating.

Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 demonstrate that God's will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will

Now if you can show that god is not First Cause, and that there are details he did not know of, then our conversation is over, because we would no longer be talking about God.

Just because God could arrange circumstances and the wiring in our heads to orchestrate our every action, doesn't mean He did so. And if He did so, then God is the author of sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don’t see why free choice would imply that God didn’t know what was going to transpire. I think the root of the difference between our perspectives is what love is. I believe the purpose for God creating this world was to cultivate people who would love Him. I don’t know if you agree with this statement but I believe that’s why free will was absolutely necessary and why there is a randomness in salvation. What do you think, do you think God created the world to cultivate people who would love Him? If not what would be your reason for Him creating the world?

Do you not see God's love as necessarily general or universal, and not particular, and therefore any particularity that results of God's intentions, being random? God created the world with a very specific end in mind, to include the very identity of each member of the Bride of Christ, in each member of which is to him a delight. Not even a little bit random.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don’t see how God would not be able to see the results of a free will population. Since He is omnipresent and omniscient He exists in all time simultaneously and knows everything. Free will doesn’t change this or create any problem with it. I don’t understand how your coming to the conclusion that God would not be able to see every single nanosecond of what would take place from beginning to end.

1) Because if any of it was a result of his creating, it was ALL a result of his creating it, as there can be only one First Cause. Thus, it is all caused, which contradicts the notion of libertarian free will. (Note that I don't deny 'free will' in the sense that we do indeed choose.)

2) Because if he saw it, and created what caused it anyway, he intended it.

3) Because his is not a reactive existence; He IS, and all else came to be. We depend on him, and not him on us. What he sets out to do is eternal, not temporal, but 'the way to get there' can be temporal. He thus does not look to see what we will do, in order to choose whom he will.

As far as His omnipotence again that would bring us to the purpose for which He created the world. We have to keep in mind why did He create us? What’s the purpose? I believe the purpose was for us to love Him. How can love exist without consciousness and free will and what value can love have without consciousness and free will? God could’ve created us to do whatever He wanted but when it comes to love that carries with it what makes love so valuable. If you could’ve created a potion that would make your wife love you no matter what, would that love be of the same value to you as the love you have now? I’m assuming your married but if not just take it as a hypothetical question.

Consider the vapor of this existence compared to the solid reality of God's economy. Can you really compare our consciousness, our free will and our sentience to Infinite God's? This, not to mention the substance of our love to his. It is only OF HIM, and IN HIM, and, FROM HIM, that we even begin to approach anything worthy there. What are we? Not even complete beings, until we see him as he is.

So when it comes to God’s omnipotency and His sovereignty, they aren’t diminished at all if His intention was to create people who would love Him of their own free will because the absence of free will completely nullifies the value of love and therefore completely negates the very purpose for which He created the world. So free will in this case would play an absolutely crucial role in His purpose for creating the world. Now if you believe He created it for some other purpose then this is completely irrelevant so I think we need to contemplate His purpose for creating the world in order to understand His plan and how He would go about achieving that purpose.

Love is of God. Not of us. We do so because it is so. We do not earn it, but it is done in us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Your continued assumption that predestination denies choice shows itself in your thinking there, but the assumption is faulty. Your notion that your choices having an impact also denies predestination, is also logically incongruous —not only is your ability to choose established by God, but the very reality of your choices is, too!

Ok here your making our choices predestined in that God has decreed or dictated our choices which is not actually a choice at all if there is no other possible option. If you remove the presence of an alternate option then there is no choice. You can’t have a choice if God has dictated that you will certainly chose a specific option because it’s completely removed any other option. If there is only one option then there is no choice.

No the question is not whether there is an actual other option(s), but whether we choose. If we 'see' options, (not knowing which one is going to happen until we choose one) we can choose from among them. This is the empirically evident all day long, as we choose this and that, yet only one choice proves to be possible with every decision. We have never seen otherwise. If we had chosen otherwise, then "that" instead of "this", then this would not be possible, except only in our minds. We have no way to show it was possible.

We have been here before: You have shown that God presents options, and I agree. He presents options, but as you here seem to agree, he knows what is actually going to happen. You have no way to show that in His mind, the other is possible. "If they had obeyed", but they did not; "If they had not repented", but they did —these do not show the possibility of anything happening that did not happen, unless we insist on what we conceive of as possibility as being actual; but our concepts are without substance.

Mark Quayle said:
This denies, (again, 'to me'), that what we do in any way changes what God has decreed would happen, but accomplishes what God decreed would happen. Thus, not only does God determine all things, but what we choose and what we do also determines all things within the scope of our influence (and no, I don't mean by that, that our determining is necessarily according to our intent, but only that it does have an effect.)

Ok your first statement here is incorrect because you’re implying that God wouldn’t have known the outcome. Nothing that we can do will ever remove any of God’s attributes. The problem with this perspective is that your saying that God dictated the outcome which means there are no alternative options which means there are no choices. If God dictates our choices then there are no alternative options. Again you can’t have a choice if there is only one option. What you’re saying here is comparable to saying that if someone is locked in a steel room with one door that he has several choices on which way to exit the room. He has no choice but to exit from the only door available because there are no alternative options.

That's the same argument as the first of this post. The answer is the same.

If (to go with your construct) this person is in a room with one actual door and one apparent door, he will choose the actual door every time. If he chose it, it was the only possible choice. Whatever door he did not choose is not a possibility. (You are attributing substance to the terminology/nomenclature of your analogy.)

(Ironically enough, it is you who claim libertarian free will; yet in doing so, you deny the power of the chooser to determine substance here! (Ok, maybe that's just an unfair jab, but I couldn't help it!))

So the way that you are defining predestination is actually dictation which is the removal of alternative options hence nothing to choose from.

Same statement, same answer...

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 demonstrate that God's will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will

Just because God could arrange circumstances and the wiring in our heads to orchestrate our every action, doesn't mean He did so. And if He did so, then God is the author of sin.

Been there, done that with you already. Not taking the false bait.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you not see God's love as necessarily general or universal, and not particular, and therefore any particularity that results of God's intentions, being random? God created the world with a very specific end in mind, to include the very identity of each member of the Bride of Christ, in each member of which is to him a delight. Not even a little bit random.

I don’t see how this has anything to do with what I was talking about. Your only mentioning God’s love towards us, not our love towards Him. I feel like your avoiding the discussion.