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Featured If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by SAAN, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    God preserves His saints, of that the apostles were certain.


    1 Thessalonians 5:23-28 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Blessing and Admonition
    23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify[a] you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

    25 Brethren, pray for us.

    26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.

    27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the [c]holy brethren.

    28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

    Faith is a work of God's power in you, it is not your work.

    2 Thessalonians 1:10-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
    10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [a]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

    11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    And another positive mention of God work of power for us which establishes us and guards us from evil.
    2 Thessalonians 3:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Pray for Us
    3 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified, just as it is with you, 2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.

    3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.
     
  2. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    God's elect have faith because of what Christ did as our savior, meaning He has saved us and called us with a holy calling that was given to us before time began.

    2 Peter 1:1 [ Greeting the Faithful ] Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:


    Titus 1:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Greeting
    1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

    Only God's elect will have faith that endures to the end, the others will fall away as they are carnal and not joined to the Lord as one Spirit with Him.

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
     
  3. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    natural faith; saving faith...
    faith in Christ,
    faith of Christ

    let's not over-complicate this - it's one word in Greek -
    pistis (noun form - FAITH)
    pisteuo (verb form - BELIEVE)

    good essay Jennifer
     
  4. Jack Meredith

    Jack Meredith New Member

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    "I live by the faith of Christ in me" is the same as "I live by my faith in Christ''? I don't think so. It is not by my power I live, but by his.
     
  5. Blood Bought 1953

    Blood Bought 1953 Ned Flander’s Buddy

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    The Gospel is 1cor15:1-4...... it is plainly stated......google this for a great explanation of what the gospel is and what the gospel isn’t———Harry ironside gospel.....
     
  6. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I beg to differ. Because even our Faith is a Gift from God. Its the Holy Spirit that opens our eyes, and ears; to hear the Gospel message, and to believe it. Because we are Regenerated by the Holy Ghost.

    I have also gone through it as well. In Ephesians 2, Paul is using a Neuter pronoun that ties it to God giving us this Gift. But I know where you stand. It does not go in circles for me. I know what I believe and why I believe it.
     
  7. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    In Eph 2, 'the gift' is neuter, yes. But that explicitly prevents the gift of God tying to 'faith' as faith is *feminine* as is grace. In Greek, 'the gift of God' can only apply to the entirety of the antecedent clause, "By grace you have been saved, through faith." It is that salvation (by grace and through faith) which is the gift. I've done several posts on this getting into the Greek. Rendering 'faith' as the gift is an impossibility in Greek grammar.
    [Question: What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?
    See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/24715?ori=167400]

    No matter how many times you repeat the misinformation, it will not change the underlying Greek which anyone can check. http://biblehub.com/lexicon/ephesians/2-8.htm
    Faith/Grace are feminine, Gift is neuter. This links the antecedent phrase, so the gift is our salvation by grace and through faith. There is not merely lack of support in the Greek for taking faith as the gift, but the grammar expressly prohibits it.

    God only regenerates believers to new life, as by our faith we identify with Christ's death. We then die to sin, God raises us with Christ, and we get new life in Christ by the received indwelling Spirit and our new relationship with Christ. I have given verses on this topic over and over.

    You have yet to provide a verse that demands we must be regenerated prior to *faith,* or even one that directly counters the many verses that show our baptism into Christ and new life and receiving the Spirit all follow faith. All you have provided - despite many scriptures given to show the contrary, is your own insistence and interpretation that regeneration must come prior to faith and that we are somehow just given faith as if it weren't our persuasion that something was true based on received revelation at all, but more like a downloaded program where God just changes our software to set belief in the Messiah as 'true.'
     
  8. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    There are many passages that summarize the gospel. Some are brief, like 'the good news that Jesus is the Messiah' (Acts 5:42, etc.) but many go more in depth as to aspects of Jesus' life, teachings, and death (II Tim 2:8, I Tim 3:6, Jn 3:14-18, Jn 20:31, etc.) None of these are in contradiction, all are in harmony.

    I Cor 15:1-5 is sort of in the middle between the basic and the thorough, but it certainly works as a basic gospel presentation. It shows a number of things:

    - Christ died for our sins
    - Christ was buried, then raised on the third day
    - The resurrected Christ was witnessed by the Apostles and others
    - We are saved by this gospel if we receive it, take a stand on it, and hold firmly to it (e.g. welcome it in faith and continue in faith)

    Receive in this passage is paralambanó, which shows taking something with strong personal initiative. http://biblehub.com/greek/3880.htm
     
  9. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    In Greek, yes, they are the same. In modern English? No - they have different connotations. But the Greek is very clear what is meant.

    ""I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." Gal 2:20

    ἐν πίστει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ doesn't mean 'Christ's faith' but faith with Christ as it's object, much as Christ is the object of knowledge in Phil 3:8.

    It's an idiomatic usage in the Greek. To see this clearly, look at Mk 11:22:

    "And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." (This is the KJV translation, btw!) The Greek here is Καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς, Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ. So, if the KJV were being consistent, then this verse would also need translated "Have [the] faith of God" But they do not, and such a rendering would make no sense. Why they chose to render it the typical way in Mk 11:22, in accordance with how Greek manuscripts had been interpreted for over a millenia, but differently in Gal 2:20 is unclear. However, in 17th century English 'faith of Christ' meant roughly the same thing as 'faith in Christ,' so opting for of instead of in did not change the meaning a reader would take from it. In 21st century English, centuries later, it *is* ambiguous to an English reader.

    No early Greek writer, early church father, or even late church leaders proposed using 'faith of Christ' in the sense of Christ's faithfulness or Christ's own faith - not even Luther. The proposal that it must be taken so is fairly modern in a Biblical translation sense, and has only really gained traction beyond theological academia in certain theological camps in the past thirty years or so. This makes the 'faith of Christ' push an artifact of ambiguous English translation (like the KJV) and modern biased theories, and gives it no support from early commentaries and translations of the Bible.
     
  10. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Having faith in Christ -- believing in Christ -- precedes regeneration.

    In this thread, some things have been clarified, for me, concerning the "not blot his name out of the Book of Life" passage. It is clear that some living people will be going around and follow after the beast whose names were not written in the Book of Life, so the idea that EVERYONE BORN is written in it and not blotted out til they die without accepting Christ has been smashed.

    Our faith in Christ, our believing in Christ, is what personally makes our salvation effectual, it applies to us what was won by Christ for everyone, it is what gets us written in the Book of Life, and the warnings about getting blotted out therefore refer to someone who was once written in, and faith/believing is the basis in God's foreknowledge of being elect in the first place.

    23 pages of posts is almost a book in itself, and if the thread seems to be "going in circles" it is because things are being repeated and repeated -- but a book on this subject was written by Robert Shank called Life In The Son -- it did not have a great impact on me when I read it simply because I already believed what it proposed, but to someone who is unsure about Eternal Security/OSAS doctrine; it may be very helpful.

    The undecided, the ones perhaps reading this thread but never posting in it, are to me just as or more important than those posting whose minds are already made up and will never change regardless of how many scriptures are posted about warnings of falling away, becoming shipwreck, or having their names blotted out.

    1Tim 1:19
    Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  11. Jack Meredith

    Jack Meredith New Member

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    The word for God in Mk. 11:22 is theou, genitive case, of God. You can cite all the extra biblical sources you want. My final authority will always be scripture.
     
  12. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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  13. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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  14. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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  15. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of about 14 English translations -- all but one (Young's Literal Translation) have faith in God for Mark 11:22
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  16. Jack Meredith

    Jack Meredith New Member

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    "Not one jot or tittle shall pass..." "Study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the word..." "Lord, increase our faith!"Lk. 17:5. They understood that their faith comes from God. theos is nominative case, it cannot be properly translated "in God." Nor can theou, though it might be translated "from God". The phrase "by faith" is often mistranslated. In many if not most or all cases it should be "from (Gk. ek) faith." This is why I cannot be KJV only; the translators thought they would do God a favor and tell us what they thought he meant rather than tell us what he said and then comment on it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  17. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lamsa's Bible (from Syriac Peshitta) has 'faith in God' at Mark 11:22. That one is always left out of the research tools that give different versions.
     
  18. Jack Meredith

    Jack Meredith New Member

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    You're making my point. This is why I reject modern translations. "Yea, hath God said...?"
     
  19. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    the FAITH is IN GOD - that is what we are talking about - not that God in nominative is "in God"
     
  20. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why globally "reject modern translations"?

    We are fortunate today we can compare all of them - look at Interlinears, whatever.

    I mean I like KJV because I studied English of that period in college, but to flat out "reject modern translations" seems odd -- they had available to them more and older manuscripts than the KJV translators did.

    IMO, "study to show thyself approved..." would involve looking at every translation that you can.
     
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