If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

[Jack Meredith]

the FAITH is IN GOD - that is what we are talking about - not that God in nominative is "in God"

What high school did you drop out of? You clearly didn't learn grammar.

 

[Anto9us]

Here's Tyndale -- is he "non-modern" enough for ya?

11:22 And Iesus answered and sayde vnto them: Have confides in God.

 

[Jack Meredith]

Why globally "reject modern translations"?

We are fortunate today we can compare all of them - look at Interlinears, whatever.

I mean I like KJV because I studied English of that period in college, but to flat out "reject modern translations" seems odd -- they had available to them more and older manuscripts than the KJV translators did.

IMO, "study to show thyself approved..." would involve looking at every translation that you can.

I reject them because I have studied them, not just read them. Modern translations, really interpretations, use the Minority Text, less than 5% of extant copies. Old doesn't mean better; they survived because they weren't being used.

 

[Jack Meredith]

Here's Tyndale -- is he "non-modern" enough for ya?

11:22 And Iesus answered and sayde vnto them: Have confides in God.

But that's not what the Greek says; it's what made sense to Tyndale. I guess you think everyone here is as limited in their education as you are. I'm sure you never took a Formal Logic course, have you? The KJV got it mostly right, but they missed some, too. And language has changed. We must study the word to get it right.

 

[Anto9us]

Don't let your ad hominems contradict each other, Jack, how could I take a formal Logic course if I dropped out of high school?

 

[Anto9us]

Anyway, it's about 14 to 2 right now for English versions that have 'faith in God' rather than 'faith of God' for Mark 11:22.

Young and Wycliff are the 2; I am trying to check out Coverdale (you know, one of those modern New Age translators from the 1500's).

 

[Anto9us]

Zondervan's Interlinear, using Stephens' Greek text of 1550, has 'faith in God' in Mark 11:22.

Tyndale's Interlinear, using that demonic New Age Nestle-Aland 27th text, has 'faith in God' in Mark 11:22.

 

[Anto9us]

https://bible.org/question/why-does...22-use-word-how-theology-used-translate-verse

There's Daniel Wallace on it -- you ever heard of him? Me and hymn drahpt outta hi skool together way back.

 

[Anto9us]

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/mark-1122-26-wuest-greek-commentary/

Wuest has "And answering, Jesus says to them, Be constantly having faith in God" in Mark 11:22

Ooooohhhh - I LIKE that one!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Free choice, free will to choose...... does ANYONE READING THIS not have free will to choose ?

 

[Anto9us]

1599 Geneva Bible has:

22 And Jesus answered, and said unto them, Have the faith of God.


(Why am I not surprised).


Here's a bunch more versions:

KJ21
And Jesus answering, said unto them, “Have faith in God.
ASV
And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
AMP
Jesus replied, “Have faith in God [constantly].
AMPC
And Jesus, replying, said to them, Have faith in God [constantly].
BRG
And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
CSB
Jesus replied to them, “Have faith in God.
CEB
Jesus responded to them, “Have faith in God!
CJB
He responded, “Have the kind of trust that comes from God!
CEV
Jesus told his disciples: Have faith in God!
DARBY
And Jesus answering says to them, Have faith in God.
DLNT
And having responded, Jesus says to them, “Be having faith in God.
DRA
And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.
ERV
Jesus answered, “Have faith in God.
EHV
Jesus replied, “Have faith in God.
ESV
And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
ESVUK
And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
EXB
Jesus answered, “Have faith in God.
GNV
And Jesus answered, and said unto them, Have the faith of God.
GW
Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God!
GNT
Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
HCSB
Jesus replied to them, “Have faith in God.
ICB
Jesus answered, “Have faith in God.
ISV
Jesus told his disciples, “Have faith in God!
PHILLIPS
“Have faith in God,” replied Jesus to them. “I tell you that if anyone should say to this hill, ‘Get up and throw yourself into the sea’, and without any doubt in his heart believe that what he says will happen, then it will happen! That is why I tell you, whatever you pray about and ask for, believe that you have received it and it will be yours. And whenever you stand praying, you must forgive anything that you are holding against anyone else, and your Heavenly Father will forgive you your sins.”
JUB
And Jesus, answering, said unto them, Have faith in God.
KJV
And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
AKJV
And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
LEB
And Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God!
TLB
In reply Jesus said to the disciples, “If you only have faith in God—this is the absolute truth—you can say to this Mount of Olives, ‘Rise up and fall into the Mediterranean,’ and your command will be obeyed. All that’s required is that you really believe and have no doubt!
MSG
Jesus was matter-of-fact: “Embrace this God-life. Really embrace it, and nothing will be too much for you. This mountain, for instance: Just say, ‘Go jump in the lake’—no shuffling or shilly-shallying—and it’s as good as done. That’s why I urge you to pray for absolutely everything, ranging from small to large. Include everything as you embrace this God-life, and you’ll get God’s everything. And when you assume the posture of prayer, remember that it’s not all asking. If you have anything against someone, forgive—only then will your heavenly Father be inclined to also wipe your slate clean of sins.”
MEV
Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
MOUNCE
And answering, · Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God.
NOG
Yeshua said to them, “Have faith in God!
NABRE
Jesus said to them in reply, “Have faith in God.
NASB
And Jesus *answered saying to them, “Have faith in God.
NCV
Jesus answered, “Have faith in God.
NET
Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God.
NIRV
“Have faith in God,” Jesus said.
NIV
“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.
NIVUK
‘Have faith in God,’ Jesus answered.
NKJV
So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God.
NLV
Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God.
NLT
Then Jesus said to the disciples, “Have faith in God.
NMB
And Jesus answered and said to them, Have confidence in God.
NRSV
Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
NRSVA
Jesus answered them, ‘Have faith in God.
NRSVACE
Jesus answered them, ‘Have faith in God.
NRSVCE
Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
NTE
‘Have faith in God,’ replied Jesus.
OJB
And in reply Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach says to them, Have emunah in Hashem.
TPT
Jesus replied, “Let the faith of God be in you!
RSV
And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
RSVCE
And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
TLV
And Yeshua answered, saying to them, “Have faith in God!
VOICE
Jesus: Trust in God.
WEB
Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
WE
Jesus said, `Believe in God.
WYC
And Jesus answered and said to them, Have ye the faith of God;
YLT
And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;

 

[Anto9us]

Free choice, free will to choose...... does ANYONE READING THIS not have free will to choose ?

EVERYONE has free will to choose, yeshuaslavejeff -- even Calvinists are Calvinists because they chose that theology of their own free will!!

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

"Not one jot or tittle shall pass..." "Study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the word..." "Lord, increase our faith!"Lk. 17:5. They understood that their faith comes from God. theos is nominative case, it cannot be properly translated "in God." Nor can theou, though it might be translated "from God". The phrase "by faith" is often mistranslated. In many if not most or all cases it should be "from (Gk. ek) faith." This is why I cannot be KJV only; the translators thought they would do God a favor and tell us what they thought he meant rather than tell us what he said and then comment on it.

There is debate (a modern debate) over whether such few verses should be in objective genitive case or subjective genitive case, which much ado in the past thirty years of reading English connotations into 'of' that are not there in the Greek on a few select verses (generally ignoring the many more verses where "faith in Christ" is used in completely unambiguous terms, such as Col 1:4, Gal 3:26, etc.)

Because guess what? In the Greek it doesn't matter. Such a term can be taken either way, or even both ways at the same time (such as 'love of God' meaning either us loving God or God loving us or both) in the Greek. So it isn't the ambiguous Greek term, but the context which makes it clear which way is meant. If the context is ambiguous, then it is likely either way or both can be taken without any misunderstanding of the gospel.
https://www.ntgreek.org/pdf/genitive_case.pdf

Let's look at Gal 2:16:

"Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ (unambiguous term referring to our faith in Christ) Jesus, even we have believed in Christ (unambiguous as to our believing in Christ) Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in/of Christ (the arguably ambiguous term) and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

So we have two clear terms and one arguably ambiguous term. The last term could be translated faith of Christ or faithfulness of Christ, either making sense as it was sinless Jesus' obedience on the cross that makes our justification before God possible. But whether you take it as faith of Christ or faith in Christ, neither meaning would contradict the clear terms just given about our being justified through our faith in Christ and that we believe in Christ so as to be justified by faith.

I mentioned before about context being the priority on how to translate these terms which are ambiguous in the Greek. What does the context lean towards here? Faith in Christ. Translating it faith of Christ (let alone reading English connotations into that not present in the Greek) has a huge uphill battle from context, translation precedent, the limits of Greek grammar, other scriptures, etc.

Basically, the attempt to 'retranslate' the terms and read in a radical new doctrine from them is not supported. At best, one could argue for both meanings existing in tandem - that we are justified on account of our faith in Christ but the 'how' is based in Christ's faithfulness to the Father. But to try and claim the few ambiguous uses of in/of Christ all refer to 'of' and that takes on English connotations of being 'from' Christ and so Christ just gives us our faith....that just doesn't fit with other scripture nor is it demanded, or even supported to any persuasive degree, by the Greek.

That God *increases* our faith is true. (Lord I do believe, help me in my unbelief; God grants believers a measure of faith for the working of spiritual gifts; we grow the fruit of faithfulness as we abide in faith through Christ, etc. II Pet 1:3-11 shows how our faith is productive in all manner of virtues through the power of God as we abide in Christ.)

However, the quote you cite in no way supports the idea that our faith must be increased, let alone given, for us to believe. In context, Jesus is teaching on forgiveness, and how we must forgive no matter how many times a brother wrongs us if that brother repents. This is a hard teaching!

To this, the apostles reply, "Lord, “Increase our faith!” This means to add to faith, not to give it to begin with. Jesus replies, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you." (from Lk 17:5-6)

Was Jesus' reply, 'you can't have any faith unless I first give it?' or 'Yes, you need me to increase your faith to be able to forgive?' No! His point was that their forgiving a repentant brother who sins against them many times doesn't *need* an increase of faith. A mustard seed of faith is enough to give forgiveness! (And the context heavily implies it is not faith in Christ as Messiah being discussed here, but rather faith that God is just and so that we personally can be merciful and forgive those who repent just as we have faith that God forgives us when we repent.)

 

[Jack Meredith]

Let's look at Gal 2:16:[/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ is in the genitive. We believe on (eis, not en) Jesus Christ. "...justified ek (from) faith Christ (genitive). Say what it says, then give your interpretation.

 

[Jack Meredith]

My belief is based on the fulness of the original Greek text (I know the problems therewith), not from isolated verses.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

From a little evidence currently viewed, perhaps you have heard an interpretation that is not accurate ?

Is it possible to obey Yahweh without interpreting His Word ? Instead, just "say what it says" with not needing so-called "interpretation" --- ("interpretation" has some current meanings not in line with Scripture/ Yahweh's meaning, apparently from some or many posts of others --- for my view, I agree with Yahweh's Word that no interpretation (private, personal) is permitted; translation and explanation is not the same, I believe)

Let's look at Gal 2:16:

Jesus Christ is in the genitive. We believe on (eis, not en) Jesus Christ. "...justified ek (from) faith Christ (genitive). Say what it says, then give your interpretation.[/QUOTE]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My belief is based on the fulness of the original Greek text (I know the problems therewith), not from isolated verses.

How do you explain the belief and understanding of Scripture accurately, that little children may have, who do not know Hebrew, Greek nor English reading or writing ?

 

[Jack Meredith]

From a little evidence currently viewed, perhaps you have heard an interpretation that is not accurate ?

Is it possible to obey Yahweh without interpreting His Word ? Instead, just "say what it says" with not needing so-called "interpretation" --- ("interpretation" has some current meanings not in line with Scripture/ Yahweh's meaning, apparently from some or many posts of others --- for my view, I agree with Yahweh's Word that no interpretation (private, personal) is permitted; translation and explanation is not the same, I believe)


Jesus Christ is in the genitive. We believe on (eis, not en) Jesus Christ. "...justified ek (from) faith Christ (genitive). Say what it says, then give your interpretation.

[/QUOTE]
I do not simply assume that some translator got it right. When they disagree, whom should I believe? Again, they seem to have often tried to help God out by presuming to tell us mere peons what God meant. Be Berean.
And, yes, God honors his word above his name. But he doesn't honor deliberate ignorance.

 

[Jack Meredith]

How do you explain the belief and understanding of Scripture accurately, that little children may have, who do not know Hebrew, Greek nor English reading or writing ?

Innocence. The grace of God. The milk of the Word. Every new Christian is Arminian.

 

[Jack Meredith]

W