If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

[Anto9us]

Every new Christian is Arminian.

Did that apply to all the new Christians in the 1550-odd years before Arminius existed?

 

[Anto9us]

W

I disagree!!

 

[Jack Meredith]

Did that apply to all the new Christians in the 1550-odd years before Arminius existed?

The beliefs, not the man. That should go without saying.

 

[Jack Meredith]

I disagree!!

Of course you would!

 

[Anto9us]

Getting back to the "not blot his name out" references in Revelation, and aware that followers of the beast, while living, are portrayed as not having their names written in there at all -- who is the warning TO -- if not to someone who was saved and had their name written in already?

 

[Anto9us]

Maybe seven pages back in this thread, I brought up the 'blotting out of Book of Life' verses in Revelation. There were no adequate answers from the side of this OP which thinks a believer can never 'unbecome' a believer, so I am going to re-hash it now.

Remember, this need not involve "Arminianism vs Calvinism" at all -- I simply want to look at the BLOT OUT VERSES in Revelation and how they relate to the OP.

Rev 3:4
Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

Rev 3:5
He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.


If one's name will not be BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life IF HE CONQUERS, then it must mean that it is possible to have one's name blotted out once it is already in the Book of Life.


Anto9us said:
I used to believe that everyone who was born had their name written in Book of Life, and if they died without accepting Christ, their name was blotted out.

I came to see it differently in time, that it may well be that names are written in the Book of Life when a person accepts Christ -- that suits better the "not blot his name out" passage -- and ties directly into the topic of this 19-page thread; that a person could make a decision and later walk away from it.


Anto9us said:
If only THE ELECT are written in the Book of Life, then there ya go, they can still be blotted out, according to Rev 3:5.


Here are verses which seem to be against the idea that EVERYONE is written in Book of Life from birth:

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


So I guess I'm back to thinking one gets written in when they believe, and is subject to being blotted out from that point until their death -- of course, with God's foreknowledge, their belief and perseverance would be known by Him from foundation of the world anyway.

In any case, the two above verses indicate there are people walking around whose names are NOT in there - they are ones that worship the beast.


So now I submit to you -- there are WARNINGS about being blotted out -- and they necessarily MUST BE to saved people (because beast-followers are/were not written in at all).

Discuss.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Let's look at Gal 2:16:

Jesus Christ is in the genitive. We believe on (eis, not en) Jesus Christ. "...justified ek (from) faith Christ (genitive). Say what it says, then give your interpretation.[/QUOTE]

#1 The Greek doesn't mean what you claim it means. 'Of' in Greek is not a one to one equivalent with 'of' in English. Please check out the link I gave that dives into detail on Greek grammar concerning genitives.
https://www.ntgreek.org/pdf/genitive_case.pdf

For example: 'Blasphemy of the Spirit" in Matt 12:31 - do you genuinely think the Holy Spirit is Blaspheming? Or "neglect the love of God" in Luke 11:42 - do you think Jesus was really saying that the pharisees problem was that God was neglecting to love them?

Please stop insisting that modern English connotations of 'of' prove anything in the Greek.

#2
You can't just claim a specific phrase uses the subjective vs. an objective genitive vs. a plenary genitive. It's not like there is a special marking or conjugation to distinguish. You have to use context to best guess, and even there it is ambiguous as a subjective genitive can also mean the same thing as the objective genitive!

The phrase 'love of God,' for example, can refer to God loving us, us loving God, or even both at the same time (plenary) in a complementary way.

#3 The vast support from Greek manuscripts, early commentaries and translations, context, and other scripture supports the few verses where 'faith in Christ' could be translated as 'faith of Christ' as having the English meaning of 'faith in Christ.' Even within the same verse, the unambiguous 'we believe in Christ' is used, supporting faith in Christ as the English meaning of the Greek.

#4 'Eis' means 'to' or 'into' - not 'on.' It's a very unambiguous preposition. It's literal meaning is 'motion into which.'
http://biblehub.com/greek/1519.htm

You can check out it's frequent use in scripture here: http://biblehub.com/greek/eis_1519.htm
You'll note 'on' is not a translation and definitely would not fit in modern English, even if it could have been used as a synonym for in a few centuries ago. There aren't phrases like 'brass on your purses,' 'they went on the city,' 'food goes on your stomach,' 'enter on the kingdom,' 'cast on prison,' 'departed on Galilee' 'sent on Bethlehem,' 'coming on the house,' 'wheat on the barn' - etc. Such things would be nonsensical translations.

In fact, the use of Eis over En here is even a clearer note that this is our believe "into" Christ, as En merely refers to a condition of being inside/within/in the realm of something and not to the motion of us moving into something. http://biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm If en had been used, it could be claimed to be ambiguous as to whether they were in the state of belief because they had repented and turned or because Christ had given it to them. By the use of Eis, it is clear that faith is the person's motion towards Christ in response to the gospel which is meant here.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Maybe seven pages back in this thread, I brought up the 'blotting out of Book of Life' verses in Revelation. There were no adequate answers from the side of this OP which thinks a believer can never 'unbecome' a believer, so I am going to re-hash it now.

Remember, this need not involve "Arminianism vs Calvinism" at all -- I simply want to look at the BLOT OUT VERSES in Revelation and how they relate to the OP.

Rev 3:4
Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

Rev 3:5
He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.


If one's name will not be BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life IF HE CONQUERS, then it must mean that it is possible to have one's name blotted out once it is already in the Book of Life.


Anto9us said:
I used to believe that everyone who was born had their name written in Book of Life, and if they died without accepting Christ, their name was blotted out.

I came to see it differently in time, that it may well be that names are written in the Book of Life when a person accepts Christ -- that suits better the "not blot his name out" passage -- and ties directly into the topic of this 19-page thread; that a person could make a decision and later walk away from it.


Anto9us said:
If only THE ELECT are written in the Book of Life, then there ya go, they can still be blotted out, according to Rev 3:5.


Here are verses which seem to be against the idea that EVERYONE is written in Book of Life from birth:

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


So I guess I'm back to thinking one gets written in when they believe, and is subject to being blotted out from that point until their death -- of course, with God's foreknowledge, their belief and perseverance would be known by Him from foundation of the world anyway.

In any case, the two above verses indicate there are people walking around whose names are NOT in there - they are ones that worship the beast.


So now I submit to you -- there are WARNINGS about being blotted out -- and they necessarily MUST BE to saved people (because beast-followers are/were not written in at all).

Discuss.

Some interesting tidbits about the Greek exaleiphó (wipe away, obliterate, wipe out):

- This is the same term used of God wiping away our sins (Acts 3:19, etc.) and blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us (Col 2:!4)
- The term means to 'smear wholly out from' - hence the outcome of obliteration, cancelling, or wiping out. It refers to removing something from a previous state.
- There were a number of ways in the ancient world of signifying a debt was cancelled. The record could be destroyed or torn to pieces, scraped out entirely if on wax, crossed out, a nail driven through it, etc. In many cases this smearing out or destruction of the record was so thorough one couldn't subsequently tell a debt had ever existed in the first place.
- Another historical use of the term was in regards to citizenship. A citizen of the city (Such as Rome) had their name recorded in a book of citizenship. If they lost their citizenship due to committing some serious crime like homicide or forgery, their names would be struck out/removed from this book. The majority of these people whose citizenship was revoked were turned into slaves [damnatio in metalla] or banished [deportatio] or outright fed to beasts [damnatio ad bestias]

 

[Anto9us]

Eeeeeww... fed to beasts -- not good...

 

[Anto9us]

All Righty, then.
No rebuttal that some of the saved can be blotted out of Book of Life.

 

[Anto9us]

- This is the same term used of God wiping away our sins (Acts 3:19, etc.) and blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us (Col 2:14)

I like those "GOOD blot outs" !!
So there are blot outs that we WANT, and one bad blot out that we DON'T WANT.

 

[Marvin Knox]

How does II Cor 5:17 not clearly and logically demand that someone be in Christ to have the new creation? The Greek is a very explicit conditional:
"Therefore, if anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation. Behold the old things have passed away, new things have come."
This is an unambiguous 'if A, then B.' Logically, one cannot have B without A. Therefore, one cannot claim that B is necessary to *get* A.
Being in Christ is logically prior to becoming a new creation, even if they occur in 'time' at or around the same moment.

You and I may end up in agreement on some things or even on all things. That remains to be seen,

It's been a while since our original contact here in this thread. But, if I'm not mistaken, my original disagreement with you was because you were assuming things from the scriptures which may not be true. This is such a case.

Actually - your basic logic here is faulty.
While it is unambiguous that if old things have passed away and new things have come then such a one is in Christ - the opposite may not be true (logically).

Whether A begets B or B begets A remains to be seen. I.e. we must bring other scriptures to bear on the subject for an answer to that question.

Being in Christ is logically prior to becoming a new creation, even if they occur in 'time' at or around the same moment.
"

Not according to this verse it isn't. Do you have verses which demand that to be true?

So then the question becomes, how do we become 'in Christ?' That scripture is very clear about - when we believe.
"And in Him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, having heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation." Eph 1:13
"

That scripture is clear about when we are sealed with the Spirit - i.e. after believing. No argument from me.

"Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham...[Jesus] redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal 3:7-14

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:25-26 "

No disagreement from me.

(Excerpts from Romans 5 & 6)

Note there again, our unity with Christ and subsequent new life stem from faith - they do not precede it!

I have no problem with the idea that our life in the Kingdom begins when we are born again. I have a problem with you believing that life itself starts when one is born and not before.

Do you not believe that life starts at conception and not at delivery - because that is what the scriptures indicate?

The concept of being born again is very clear and IMO the Lord meant it to be. That's why He used such a pointed illustration as to how it happens.

After you had been generated in secret by your earthly father and become a living human being and the time was appropriate to come forth - you were "born" into this world.

When you had been generated in sec ret by your heavenly Father and become a new creation and the time was appropriate to come forth - you were "born" into the Kingdom of God.

You were "born" by the Word of God when you received the gospel as God's truth. You could not have received that truth in order to be born into the Kingdom had the Father not drawn you by His Spirit. No one can say Jesus is Lord in order to be born into and begin your walk the Kingdom of God except by the Holy Spirit.

The belief in the gospel and our statement of faith is merely the result of the presence of the Spirit's presence in our lives.

It's like the wind - according to the Lord. We hear sound of it and feel it's presence. But it is not the wind itself we hear and feel.

The things you seem to be taking issue with me about have to do with things which happen after we are born again as the guaranteed result of the Spirit's presence.

All those the Father gives to the Son "will" come to Him eventually and be born again by the Word of God.

After we receive the Word and are born into the Kingdom - we should really not be in doubt as to the fact that it was the work of the Spirit and not of ourselves which made it all possible.

By grace we have been saved through faith - and that - not of yourselves lest any man should boast.

He is the author of our faith and He who began that good work in us will complete it guaranteed.




​

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

You and I may end up in agreement on some things or even on all things. That remains to be seen,

It's been a while since our original contact here in this thread. But, if I'm not mistaken, my original disagreement with you was because you were assuming things from the scriptures which may not be true. This is such a case.

Actually - your basic logic here is faulty.
While it is unambiguous that if old things have passed away and new things have come then such a one is in Christ - the opposite may not be true (logically).

II Cor 5:17 is very explicit that if anyone is in Christ, he has become a new creature (been born anew.) The grammar is very clear that if they are not in Christ, then they have not been born anew. Therefore, the idea that one must be born anew to join to Christ is logically contradictory to this passage.

I have no problem with the idea that our life in the Kingdom begins when we are born again. I have a problem with you believing that life itself starts when one is born and not before.

Do you not believe that life starts at conception and not at delivery - because that is what the scriptures indicate?

​

We aren't talking about physical life, but spiritual life. No scripture hints at a 'womb' period where we are alive in Christ yet not born again. Rather, scripture shows that when we turn in faith we die to sin/the law by identifying with Christ's death and then God 'raises us to new life.' The new life is linked with Christ's resurrection.

"Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was.…" Rom 6:3-5

"Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him." Rom 6:8

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mk 16:16

"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

These passages and others place our new life *after* faith and being baptized into Christ. The hope of eternal life follows the new birth. They don't say we must live so we can have faith so we can then die with Christ and then be born again in Christ - such a convoluted process is never hinted at.

The concept of being born again is very clear and IMO the Lord meant it to be. That's why He used such a pointed illustration as to how it happens.

It is very clear when parallel scriptures are examined. It is not 'very clear' that one must somehow be born again to have faith, or given life to have faith to be born again. That is not implied or demanded by any text.

After you had been generated in secret by your earthly father and become a living human being and the time was appropriate to come forth - you were "born" into this world.

When you had been generated in secret by your heavenly Father and become a new creation and the time was appropriate to come forth - you were "born" into the Kingdom of God.

Referring back to the verses already quoted, we aren't secretly generated. Our baptism into Christ is anything but secret - in most cases we even physically declare it before men by public baptism! We are buried with Christ in His death and God raises us to new life. No '9 month' gestation - not even a three day gestation to symbolize Jesus' time in the tomb. You are pulling things not present in the analogy. Jesus never says, 'To enter the kingdom of God you must be *conceived* a second time so that you can believe so you can then be born again" - He simply states we must be born again. And scripture is clear that that new life occurs after our spiritual baptism into Christ.

You were "born" by the Word of God when you received the gospel as God's truth. You could not have received that truth in order to be born into the Kingdom had the Father not drawn you by His Spirit. No one can say Jesus is Lord in order to be born into and begin your walk the Kingdom of God except by the Holy Spirit.

1. Christ draws all men to Him by His death (Jn 12:32.) The Spirit convicts the whole world in regards to sin and righteousness and judgement (Jn 16:8.) The gospel is declared to all. It isn't Christ's failure or some insufficient work on the cross that keeps people from faith - no further prerequisite than the many graces God has given in Christ is needed for men to be able to come.

2. Scripture doesn't say, 'the gospel is of no value unless the Holy Spirit gives you faith or new life first.' Rather, it says, "For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because it was not united in faith by those who heard." It was of no value since they didn't share in faith! It was not of no value because they 'couldn't turn in faith.'

Let's take a closer look at that term, 'united':

"4786 sygkeránnymi (from 4862 /sýn, "identified with," intensifying 2767 /keránnymi, "mix into a new and improved compound") – properly, mix together into a superior compound – "a holistic blend" (unified whole) where the parts work together synergistically."
http://biblehub.com/greek/4786.htm

The belief in the gospel and our statement of faith is merely the result of the presence of the Spirit's presence in our lives.

According to what verse? Scripture is very clear that we only receive the Spirit *after* we believe. (Jn 7:39, Gal 3:2, Acts 8:15, Jn 14:17, Acts 2:38, etc.) The Spirit's presence gives us gifts to work in the church and the power to bear fruit - but those are things that follow faith and do not precede it (II Pet 1:3-11, Gal 5, Rom 8:1-17, etc.)

It's like the wind - according to the Lord. We hear sound of it and feel it's presence. But it is not the wind itself we hear and feel.

Jn 3:8 is speaking of those born of the Spirit, not unbelievers somehow given life by the Spirit prior to faith.

The things you seem to be taking issue with me about have to do with things which happen after we are born again as the guaranteed result of the Spirit's presence.

No, I have no problem with the things that happen once we are born again. My biggest issue is that you seem to take our receiving the gospel in faith as one of those things when scripture places that *prior* to our being born again into new life.

All those the Father gives to the Son "will" come to Him eventually and be born again by the Word of God.

All the Father gives will arrive at the Son and accompany Him (Jn 6:37-40, 17:20-23) - but who does God give the Son? Those who believe. God also especially gave Jesus the disciples (Jn 17:1-18)

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”" Jn 6:37-40

'those He has given me' and 'everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him' are the same groups here. The reason we know that 'looks to the Son and believes' is the basis for the giving (not the result) is that it is the Father's will specifically that those who believe have eternal life and be raised, and it's His will specifically for the son that He not destroy those given and raise them up. If belief was the result, not the basis, we could expect something more akin to, 'It is the Father's will that those He has chosen to not be destroyed will believe so the Son will raise them up on the last day.' As it is written, the Father's will for who will be given to the Son and raised is very clearly based in their belief.

After we receive the Word and are born into the Kingdom - we should really not be in doubt as to the fact that it was the work of the Spirit and not of ourselves which made it all possible.

Scripture is pretty clear that faith is our response to God's revelation of what Christ has done - not a complete work of the Spirit which we don't receive until after we believe and get new life in Christ. Certainly, only God makes it possible for us to even be saved through faith - but Christ accomplished this for all people by His death. And the term "united" in Heb 4:2 does show that the distinguishing difference between unbelievers and believers is that unbelievers do *not* unite in faith with the gospel, whereas believers do unite the gospel (from God) with faith (our response in trust.)

By grace we have been saved through faith - and that - not of yourselves lest any man should boast.

He is the author of our faith and He who began that good work in us will complete it guaranteed.

​

The gift in Eph 2:8 is salvation by grace and through faith. "Faith" is not the gift there, nor can that reading be taken from the Greek grammar. Nothing in the verse, or the passage, demands that we somehow receive life by the Spirit prior to faith.
http://ebible.com/answers/24715?ori=167400

Heb 12:2 states that Jesus is the file-leader/pioneer of our faith - the first in line, not the 'author.' The Greek has no connotations of Jesus making our faith or creating it vs. being the object of our faith.

The Greek 'archégos' means 'the first in a long procession'; the founder of a movement or a file-leader. Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren (Rom 8:28-30), and through Him we receive the promise of the Spirit (Gal 3:13-14).
http://ebible.com/answers/20250?ori=167400

 

[Anto9us]

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Faith comes first -- by it we are justified -- and have peace with God.

 

[Anto9us]

Rom 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


After faith, we are STANDING in Grace, not in PRESUMPTION, or counting ourselves to have apprehended, but rejoice in HOPE.


Rom 8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


We HOPE that we never allow a root of bitterness to spring up - and make ourselves walk away from where we are - we must always heed the warnings against doing so.

 

[Anto9us]

We give diligence to HEART and MOUTH - so we remain confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead -- mouth/heart verses are ALL THROUGHOUT The Bible:


Deu 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


1Sa 2:1
And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the LORD, mine horn is exalted in the LORD: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation.


Psa 17:3
Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited me in the night; thou hast tried me, and shalt find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.

Psa 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[Marvin Knox]

II Cor 5:17 is very explicit that if anyone is in Christ, he has become a new creature (been born anew.) The grammar is very clear that if they are not in Christ, then they have not been born anew. Therefore, the idea that one must be born anew to join to Christ is logically contradictory to this passage.

Although I would like to - I simply cannot continue with you here if you cannot understand or, worse will not admit, when you have come to an illogical conclusion.

I say again and for the last time that the logic is only clear that one who is in Christ has become a new creature. There is nothing logically to bring one to the conclusion that one cannot be new creation and not yet be in Christ.

Also - as clearly stated by me before - life does not begin (scripturally) when one is born.

No scripture hints at a 'womb' period where we are alive in Christ yet not born again.

Of course it does.

Flesh and blood does not reveal the truth which culminates in being born again by the Word of God. No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. One can kick against the goads for any length of time as the Lord works within the Spirit of man.

We aren't talking about physical life, but spiritual life.

Of course we are. We are referencing the very illustration the Lord used to show us the truth of these matters.

These passages and others place our new life *after* faith and being baptized into Christ.

That simply isn't true. You draw many conclusions which are not necessarily warranted from passages. You start with the conclusion and only then proceed to the statement. ​

Jesus never says, 'To enter the kingdom of God you must be *conceived* a second time so that you can believe so you can then be born again" - He simply states we must be born again. And scripture is clear that that new life occurs after our spiritual baptism into Christ.

He simply gave us the earthly analogy as to what being born again was like and expect us to understand it in those terms.

One does not enter either the world or the Kingdom of God in order to become a new creation. One enters the world or the Kingdom of God "because" one is a new creation. It is the natural consequence of having been knit together by God to be used as He sees fit.

You are mixing various words and terms here because it fits with your preconceived opinions and not using them as the Lord intended them to be used.

who does God give the Son? Those who believe. God also especially gave Jesus the disciples (Jn 17:1-18)

No - the scripture is clear that those the Father gives to the Son will come to Him in belief. It does not say that those who come to the Son in belief are then given to the Son.

Here - as before - you preconceived theology is clouding what the scriptures really say and what they do not.,

MARVIN said, "The belief in the gospel and our statement of faith is merely the result of the presence of the Spirit's presence in our lives."

According to what verse? Scripture is very clear that we only receive the Spirit *after* we believe. (Jn 7:39, Gal 3:2, Acts 8:15, Jn 14:17, Acts 2:38, etc.)

"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:3

Scripture is very clear that we only receive the Spirit *after* we believe. (Jn 7:39, Gal 3:2, Acts 8:15, Jn 14:17, Acts 2:38, etc.) The Spirit's presence gives us gifts to work in the church and the power to bear fruit - but those are things that follow faith and do not precede it (II Pet 1:3-11, Gal 5, Rom 8:1-17, etc.)

Your conception of the work of the Holy Spirit in the world and His ministry in the life of the church is rather shallow IMO.

Beyond that - the scripture is clear that to us "..... it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" Philippians 1:29

Let's make this simply now. Admit that your logic was faulty in your statements before which occasioned my addressing you and we will continue if you so desire.

Continue to bow your neck in pride and we will not.

 

[Anto9us]

Jennifer said:

"No scripture hints at a 'womb' period where we are alive in Christ yet not born again."


Marvin said:

"Of course it does."


I say - No - there is no "womb period"; just as Jennifer has posted.

 

[Anto9us]

What is the scripture that describes a 'womb period'?

 

[Anto9us]

The PERIOD OF GESTATION must have been awfully SHORT for the Ethiopian Eunuch -- one minute he was asking Phillip what a passage in Isaiah meant, next thing ya know, he has believed and is getting baptized!