If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

Anto9us

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So -- short of heaven -- I am not going to find a venue where all others agree with my take on these doctrines.

As I say, even IN HEAVEN -- some will find out THEY HAVE BEEN WRONG about doctrine X, Y or Z.

I am not going to find a message board where there are no muslims, no Mormons, no Cessationists, no Calvinists, no non-trinnies.

Nor would I even want to find such a board.
 
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Anto9us

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All I know is that OSAS means 'once saved always saved'

I agree, and cannot for the life of me see any difference in OSAS and Eternal Security.

Decisional Regenaration seems a term for how Arminians view the act of believing preceding, and being the cause of, salvation -- but is not really a term I use
 
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Sam91

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I agree, and cannot for the life of me see any difference in OSAS and Eternal Security.

Decisional Regenaration seems a term for how Arminians view the act of believing preceding, and being the cause of, salvation -- but is not really a term I use
Oh you had to mention Arminians! I know little about their beliefs but I do think Calvinism sounds a little different to the Bible. I did read a book about it but decided to stop researching incase I become convinced of a doctrine that is different to the Gospel that I first heard.

If they could just make a doctrine using the same terms that we use in the Bible it would be a lot clearer to understand and a little less dubious. When to understand one small point means a whole 10minutes of someone taking a few separate verses which seem to be contrary to Jesus' words it becomes something I give up on and I'd rather just adhere to Proverbs 3:5-6 instead.

Especially when you consider a toddler trying to understand a university professor. The gulf in wisdom is wide. It is many powers to the 10 more between us and our Creator.
A toddler understands little in comparison and can figure out a partial sense of the man, by the actions of him and the words he utters in the language appropriate to the toddlers understanding. Thankfully, we have that in what Christ said on Earth. The OT and the Counsellor He left to reside in us to help us to continue in Him.

It is no wonder that we have all these different theories, and I wonder if any are completely correct really.
 
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Anto9us

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lol

It's hard for me NOT to mention Arminians - I am one - but I think this "can one lose their salvation" OP is far broader than a mere Arminian vs Calvinist clash.

I would say true Classical Arminians are a minority; however, I think the majority of Christians believe in Free Will, whether they ever read one word of Arminius or not
 
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Anto9us

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Friday Files, 29 June 2018

At that site, there is a SURVEY of whether someone might be an Arminian and not even know it; there is no 'message board' at that site - just a bunch of articles.
 
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Sam91

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lol

It's hard for me NOT to mention Arminians - I am one - but I think this "can one lose their salvation" OP is far broader than a mere Arminian vs Calvinist clash.

I would say true Classical Arminians are a minority; however, I think the majority of Christians believe in Free Will, whether they ever read one word of Arminius or not
I editted my post. I may or may not be one. I've given up in trying to work out the finer points. I hope the Lord will just build on the understanding on what He thinks is important to learn.
 
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redleghunter

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I do not know what I mean. All I know is that OSAS means 'once saved always saved' and that I feel that goes against all the commendations by Christ, Paul, Peter to hold fast, persevere, to stay fervent in love to God. To trust in Him, and to obey.

That there are warnings, throughout.

When I think of OSAS I think of the servant who buried his talent. He did absolutely nothing. It makes me think of the faith God has given us. That someone can say thats it. I have accepted the Lord into my life, in 50 years or so when I die I am going to be in Heaven, lets just enjoy the world and pray when I want something. (I know most of you are not like that!!)

Then I think of those who say you can't lose your salvation but are not showing the fruits of the spirit... I'm not wondering if they are saved or not. But I wonder if its all false teaching and whetger it is what oeople want to hear because I read the Bible differently to that.

What I do know though is nothing can separate me from the Lord other than myself rejecting Him by living disobediently unto the point that I can't come back, by no longer being able to repent. Which in turn makes me think of the warnings in the beginning of Romans 1 Verse 21 says that they KNEW God.
Can you quote the theologian who coined the term OSAS?
 
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redleghunter

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Sam91

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Can you quote the theologian who coined the term OSAS?
No, heard of it on here or another forum.

I asked an elder at my old Church if they agreed with it. He had to ask the Pastors and then I was loaned a book penned by John Piper about Calvinism. Which didn't have the phrase in it.
 
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Sam91

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yeshuaslavejeff

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So what is the gospel ?
Jesus' first and last word to people: Turn to Yahweh (repent).
Jesus to His disciples: I know you don't know how to live. Come to Me, and I will show you.
Jesus to the religious leaders who opposed Yahweh and Moses: Woe to you religious leaders , you will cross a desert and an ocean to gain one convert, but won't lift a finger to help someone, then your converts become twice the son of the devil as yourselves.
Jesus to the weak, broken, suffering: Come to Me , all you who are weak and heavy laden, and I Will give you rest and nourishment for your souls; you who hunger and thirst for righteousness will receive freely and your hunger and thirst I will satisfy.
Jesus when it is time: Your sins are forgiven , go and sin no more. Do what the Father tells you.

Jesus to those following Him, or desiring to follow Him: If you want to be My disciple, you must give up everything. You must hate your life in this world (this world which always tries to make you die in sin, to fall, to never find Yahweh's Kingdom) ....... "Repent (turn to Yahweh), then be immersed in water in My Name for the forgiveness of sins and to be set apart by My Father to Himself, and you will be saved.
Whoever does not believe is already condemned.
 
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ladodgers6

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Don't be silly. I said I had to humble myself, and let go of my pride. This submitting is not a work, it is the opposite. You know what takes work? Being at war with the Spirit.
Calvinism constantly tries to insist that if I can put my faith in something, if I can even reach out my hand when God throws me the flotation device, or whatever analogy you want to use, that I'm doing a work and saving myself. Good grief. Go read the faith chapter and chill out. Of course my faith doesn't save me. Repeat after me, "Faith is not a work."

Thanks for sharing. I am just trying to understand? I am just sharing and trying to have a conversation that's all. Have a great day!

God Bless!
 
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AlexDTX

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If the elect can lose their salvation, then Christ has failed.. that’s exactly what you and others are saying
Christ does not fail. We do. But as I said, it is extremely hard to lose your salvation. Your heart has to harden again to the point one genuinely believes evil is good and good evil. That is a great delusion.

Your response seems to imply that we have no part in salvation. I do not believe that. We are given the responsibility to share the gospel to others. If we do not, we deny others the opportunity for salvation. If we have no part and God decides who goes to Heaven and who goes to the Lake of Fire, then preaching the Gospel becomes meaningless.

But this old nut has been argued to death for millennium. You want to believe what you believe, so go ahead and believe it. I don't care. I made my statement, and no amount of arguing with you on my part is going to change your mind. So I will not waste either of our time.
 
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sdowney717

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Oh you had to mention Arminians! I know little about their beliefs but I do think Calvinism sounds a little different to the Bible. I did read a book about it but decided to stop researching incase I become convinced of a doctrine that is different to the Gospel that I first heard.

If they could just make a doctrine using the same terms that we use in the Bible it would be a lot clearer to understand and a little less dubious. When to understand one small point means a whole 10minutes of someone taking a few separate verses which seem to be contrary to Jesus' words it becomes something I give up on and I'd rather just adhere to Proverbs 3:5-6 instead.

Especially when you consider a toddler trying to understand a university professor. The gulf in wisdom is wide. It is many powers to the 10 more between us and our Creator.
A toddler understands little in comparison and can figure out a partial sense of the man, by the actions of him and the words he utters in the language appropriate to the toddlers understanding. Thankfully, we have that in what Christ said on Earth. The OT and the Counsellor He left to reside in us to help us to continue in Him.

It is no wonder that we have all these different theories, and I wonder if any are completely correct really.
Jesus is the author and finisher of your faith. So the work He started in you, He will bring it to completion without fail.
Jesus told us not to marvel that you must be born again, or about the process, it just happens according to His will. (the wind blows where it wills, so it is with everyone born of the Spirit, it is according to the Holy Spirit as He wills) . Calvinists believe you must be born again before you can see the kingdom of God as Jesus says in John 3:3, so your faith then is God's gift to His elect who will believe and be sealed after they believe. But salvation for the elect is a 100% sure thing, as God knows those who are His, and it's Him that makes us born of Himself, so then we become a part of His family..

By HIS grace are you saved!
 
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Sam91

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Jesus is the author and finisher of your faith. So the work He started in you, He will bring it to completion without fail.
Jesus told us not to marvel that you must be born again, or about the process, it just happens according to His will. (the wind blows where it wills, so it is with everyone born of the Spirit, it is according to the Holy Spirit as He wills) . Calvinists believe you must be born again before you can see the kingdom of God as Jesus says in John 3:3, so your faith then is God's gift to His elect who will believe and be sealed after they believe. But salvation for the elect is a 100% sure thing, as God knows those who are His, and it's Him that makes us born of Himself, so then we become a part of His family..

By HIS grace are you saved!
I think I'm steering clear of these doctrines. When I do witness, I stick to the Bible and what God has done/is doing for me. That is all I know to be correct. As for the rest I can only trust that God gives me the right verses to think of and He has done so far, as far as I'm aware.

My Church is quite Bible based too. I haven't heard anything I disgree with yet and everything they say is backed up with scripture from other books in the Bible. It's on here that people don't make sense. I keep meaning to ask the Pastor if he is a Calvinist and what he thinks of whether we can lose our salvation. But I don't know if I'll subscribe to His opinion, but I bet he'll have a good answer regardless. I'm waiting for a Church picnic.
 
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Loren T.

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Thanks for sharing. I am just trying to understand? I am just sharing and trying to have a conversation that's all. Have a great day!

God Bless!
Sorry if I came off a little strong. I've been from one end of the spectrum on this to the other. I grew up in churches where it seemed like you could lose your salvation with one wrong thought. I spent a decade at a church that was very much eternal security and somewhat Calvinist, although it wasn't always explicitly spelled out. As a result of what I see as extremes, I seem to have settled in the middle. I agree that we can't "lose" our salvation. I also believe we can throw it away by continuing in sin and hardness of heart until we wake up one day not believing in anything. This is why we are cautioned against falling away, told to stay in the vine, told to stay strong in faith and so on. God does all the work in salvation. We can agree on that. But Paul made such a clear distinction between faith and works, that we never need to think having faith is a work that earns us something. It is letting go of our work and choosing to fall on Christ's mercy, that is the condition of the heart that is required for salvation.
 
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ladodgers6

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Sorry if I came off a little strong. I've been from one end of the spectrum on this to the other. I grew up in churches where it seemed like you could lose your salvation with one wrong thought. I spent a decade at a church that was very much eternal security and somewhat Calvinist, although it wasn't always explicitly spelled out. As a result of what I see as extremes, I seem to have settled in the middle. I agree that we can't "lose" our salvation. I also believe we can throw it away by continuing in sin and hardness of heart until we wake up one day not believing in anything. This is why we are cautioned against falling away, told to stay in the vine, told to stay strong in faith and so on. God does all the work in salvation. We can agree on that. But Paul made such a clear distinction between faith and works, that we never need to think having faith is a work that earns us something. It is letting go of our work and choosing to fall on Christ's mercy, that is the condition of the heart that is required for salvation.

Don't worry, I guessed that something was eating at you. If you were not saved, these things would not been bothering you. If I may share with you, Justification of the sinner, is that Christ died for us, while we were still enemies and sinners. Its in this condition God chose to save us! There is no good in us. But God who is rich in Mercy saves the ungodly who believe this!

Luther & Calvin, I know, I know. Just bear with me for a second.

What Does “Simul Justus et Peccator” Mean?
from Nathan W. Bingham Jan 05, 2016 Category: Ligonier Resources

In this excerpt from his teaching series, “Luther and the Reformation,” Dr. R.C. Sproul shares the very heart of the gospel as he explains Martin Luther’s latin phrase, “Simul Justus et Peccator.”


Transcript
Perhaps the formula that Luther used that is most famous and most telling at this point is his formula simul justus et peccator. And if any formula summarizes and captures the essence of the Reformation view, it is this little formula. Simul is the word from which we get the English word simultaneously. Or, it means ‘at the same time.’ Justus is the Latin word for just or righteous. And you all know what et is. Et the past tense of the verb ‘to eat.’ Have you et your dinner? No, you know that’s not what that means. You remember in the death scene of Caesar after he’s been stabbed by Brutus he says, “Et tu, Brute?” Then fall Caesar. And you too Brutus? It simply means and. Peccator means sinner.

And so with this formula Luther was saying, in our justification we are one and the same time righteous or just, and sinners. Now if he would say that we are at the same time and in the same relationship just and sinners that would be a contradiction in terms. But that’s not what he was saying. He was saying from one perspective, in one sense, we are just. In another sense, from a different perspective, we are sinners; and how he defines that is simple. In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God’s scrutiny, we still have sin; we’re still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the gospel.

Will I be judged in order to get into heaven by my righteousness or by the righteousness of Christ? If I had to trust in my righteousness to get into heaven, I would completely and utterly despair of any possibility of ever being redeemed. But when we see that the righteousness that is ours by faith is the perfect righteousness of Christ, then we see how glorious is the good news of the gospel. The good news is simply this, I can be reconciled to God, I can be justified by God not on the basis of what I did, but on the basis of what’s been accomplished for me by Christ.

But at the heart of the gospel is a double-imputation. My sin is imputed to Jesus. His righteousness is imputed to me. And in this two-fold transaction we see that God, Who does not negotiate sin, Who doesn’t compromise His own integrity with our salvation, but rather punishes sin fully and really after it has been imputed to Jesus, retains His own righteousness, and so He is both just and the justifier, as the apostle tells us here. So my sin goes to Jesus, His righteousness comes to me in the sight of God.

So now being declared not guilty & perfectly Righteous in God's courtroom, because of Christ Alone received through Faith Alone! We can now live to God, without any fear of the Law. The curse has been lifted. So go and produce good works.

Paul said in Galatians 6: 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

When Satan starts to accuse you, reply, I know I am a sinner, but Christ came to save sinners, like me!
Remember that Christ died for the sins of believer too! And read & hear the Gospel everyday!

Hope this helps???

God Bless!
 
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Loren T.

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Don't worry, I guessed that something was eating at you. If you were not saved, these things would not been bothering you. If I may share with you, Justification of the sinner, is that Christ died for us, while we were still enemies and sinners. Its in this condition God chose to save us! There is no good in us. But God who is rich in Mercy saves the ungodly who believe this!

Luther & Calvin, I know, I know. Just bear with me for a second.

What Does “Simul Justus et Peccator” Mean?
from Nathan W. Bingham Jan 05, 2016 Category: Ligonier Resources

In this excerpt from his teaching series, “Luther and the Reformation,” Dr. R.C. Sproul shares the very heart of the gospel as he explains Martin Luther’s latin phrase, “Simul Justus et Peccator.”


Transcript
Perhaps the formula that Luther used that is most famous and most telling at this point is his formula simul justus et peccator. And if any formula summarizes and captures the essence of the Reformation view, it is this little formula. Simul is the word from which we get the English word simultaneously. Or, it means ‘at the same time.’ Justus is the Latin word for just or righteous. And you all know what et is. Et the past tense of the verb ‘to eat.’ Have you et your dinner? No, you know that’s not what that means. You remember in the death scene of Caesar after he’s been stabbed by Brutus he says, “Et tu, Brute?” Then fall Caesar. And you too Brutus? It simply means and. Peccator means sinner.

And so with this formula Luther was saying, in our justification we are one and the same time righteous or just, and sinners. Now if he would say that we are at the same time and in the same relationship just and sinners that would be a contradiction in terms. But that’s not what he was saying. He was saying from one perspective, in one sense, we are just. In another sense, from a different perspective, we are sinners; and how he defines that is simple. In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God’s scrutiny, we still have sin; we’re still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the gospel.

Will I be judged in order to get into heaven by my righteousness or by the righteousness of Christ? If I had to trust in my righteousness to get into heaven, I would completely and utterly despair of any possibility of ever being redeemed. But when we see that the righteousness that is ours by faith is the perfect righteousness of Christ, then we see how glorious is the good news of the gospel. The good news is simply this, I can be reconciled to God, I can be justified by God not on the basis of what I did, but on the basis of what’s been accomplished for me by Christ.

But at the heart of the gospel is a double-imputation. My sin is imputed to Jesus. His righteousness is imputed to me. And in this two-fold transaction we see that God, Who does not negotiate sin, Who doesn’t compromise His own integrity with our salvation, but rather punishes sin fully and really after it has been imputed to Jesus, retains His own righteousness, and so He is both just and the justifier, as the apostle tells us here. So my sin goes to Jesus, His righteousness comes to me in the sight of God.

So now being declared not guilty & perfectly Righteous in God's courtroom, because of Christ Alone received through Faith Alone! We can now live to God, without any fear of the Law. The curse has been lifted. So go and produce good works.

Paul said in Galatians 6: 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

When Satan starts to accuse you, reply, I know I am a sinner, but Christ came to save sinners, like me!
Remember that Christ died for the sins of believer too! And read & hear the Gospel everyday!

Hope this helps???

God Bless!

Thanks, but this is really nothing new. I basically was taught this theory of how the atonement works for about 10 years.
And I started to see it's flaws when I realized that it actually includes the belief that God just chooses some for salvation and others for damnation, for no reason. In fact, taking it further and looking at what Calvin and others said, it means that EVERYTHING is predetermined by God. Free will becomes an illusion and doing good even as a Christian, is meaningless, because you could not do otherwise. But the worst part is that it makes God ultimately the only sinner.

I could do a lot of copying and pasting and show several other versions of how the atonement works that are held to by various theologians, but no need to go there, you can look them up if you haven't read them.
But here's what is the most disturbing about what you wrote: We are not "sinners"! That is no longer our identity. There is no need to tell Satan you know you are a sinner. You can tell him you are a child of the one true King, and not under any obligation to listen to his lies when he tells you how rotten you are.
Do I need to give you a list of all the times we are called "saints" in scripture? Naw, you have google.
 
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