If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Although I would like to - I simply cannot continue with you here if you cannot understand or, worse will not admit, when you have come to an illogical conclusion.

I say again and for the last time that the logic is only clear that one who is in Christ has become a new creature. There is nothing logically to bring one to the conclusion that one cannot be new creation and not yet be in Christ.

I think I see what the problem is. You seem to be interpreting II Cor 5:17 as a simple "If A then B" statement, which wouldn't of itself prove that nothing besides A could lead to B. But the Greek and context is not so ambiguous. It's more like a "if A, and only A, then B" statement as B is solidly tied to A in Paul's line of argument.

And even if it were more ambiguous, other scripture easily clarifies that there is no way to get new life without faith in Christ, as the new birth is part of the "how" of God saving us (Tit 3:5) and that salvation and it's accompanying new life is subsequent to our belief (Rom 5, Rom 6, Col 2:6-15, Col 1:3-5)

In fact the phrase new creation would be familiar to rabbis such as Nicodemus. Converts to Judaism were considered to be 'new creations' - there was no teaching that they had to be made new or have new life so they could convert.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible:
"Therefore if any man be in Christ - The phrase to "be in Christ," evidently means to be united to Christ by faith; or to be in him as the branch is in the vine - that is, so united to the vine, or so in it, as to derive all its nourishment and support from it, and to be sustained entirely by it. John 15:2, "every branch in me." John 15:4, "abide in me, and I in you." "The branch cannot bear fruit of itself except it abide in the vine; no more can ye except ye abide in me." See also John 15:5-7, see the note on John 15:2. To be "in Christ" denotes a more tender and close union; and implies that all our support is from him. All our strength is derived from him; and denotes further that we shall partake of his fullness, and share in his felicity and glory, as the branch partakes of the strength and vigor of the parent vine. The word "therefore" (Ὥστε Hōste) here implies that the reason why Paul infers that anyone is a new creature who is in Christ is that which is stated in the previous verse; to wit, the change of views in regard to the Redeemer to which he there refers, and which was so great as to constitute a change like a new creation.

Flesh and blood does not reveal the truth which culminates in being born again by the Word of God. No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. One can kick against the goads for any length of time as the Lord works within the Spirit of man.

I Cor 12:3 is talking about the use of gifts in the church and how they can know a leader is not leading them astray. "Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit."

This is about prophesying, teaching, tongues, etc. and how we can evaluate what spirit they are speaking by. This isn't about whether one can believe in Jesus or not without having the Holy Spirit, or new life in the Spirit, etc. In general though, no one could believe in Christ in their heart or confess with their mouth without the work of the Spirit convicting the world in regards to righteousness and sin - so it is also true that the work of the Holy Spirit is necessary there.

Of course we are. We are referencing the very illustration the Lord used to show us the truth of these matters.

No, you are adding to the illustration, not using Jesus' own words. Jesus' analogy is directly about being born, and as other scriptures show this is akin to baptism - being united to Christ in His death and God raising us to new life in Christ, wherein we become a new creation and have new life in Christ. You, however, are trying to pull meaning from it by reading other symbols not used into it (like conception) and inisting those act as proofs for philosophical claims. With any parables, figurative language, analogies, etc. in scripture it's important not to start reading in unmentioned symbols or go too far with applying traits of an object that are not the called out traits in the text.

That simply isn't true. You draw many conclusions which are not necessarily warranted from passages. You start with the conclusion and only then proceed to the statement. ​

I start with analyzing the extent of an analogy or statement given. I examine it's context and any clarifications made in the the immediately surrounding text. I look for parallel scriptures that shed light on the subject or clarify further. I double check the Greek to make sure I'm not interpreting based off a mistranslation. After analyzing the respective related verses, I then synthesize that into what seems the most harmonious whole based off of the text. I then consider the strength of the conclusion - is it demanded by the texts, strongly supported, or just a best guess? Throughout this process I may discover or encounter other's interpretations and weigh those as well. I try not to let those color my initial analysis, but I do keep them in mind as I study in order to reject any explanations or interpretations that run into contradictions with scripture or note any support verses that support their views.

​

He simply gave us the earthly analogy as to what being born again was like and expect us to understand it in those terms.

I have no disagreement there - being born again is a great analogy for the new life in Christ God brings to a believer. But being 'conceived' is nowhere in the analogy.

One does not enter either the world or the Kingdom of God in order to become a new creation. One enters the world or the Kingdom of God "because" one is a new creation. It is the natural consequence of having been knit together by God to be used as He sees fit.

I agree. We can't enter the kingdom until we are born again. But the kingdom isn't "faith." Faith is the trust that Jesus is the Saviour who has the kingdom He will bring us into. We have to have faith to be united with Christ through His death and resurrection unto new life.

"That is why we boast among God’s churches about your perseverance and faith in the face of all the persecution and affliction you are enduring. All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering." II Thess 1:5

"As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." I Cor 15:48-56

"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit," Rom 14:17 (Pretty sure you have to have been given the indwelling Holy Spirit to have righteousness, peace, and joy in the Spirit...)

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." I Cor 6:9-11

 

[Marvin Knox]

I think I see what the problem is. You seem to be interpreting II Cor 5:17 as a simple "If A then B" statement,

Which is exactly what you did and have continued to do. Your statement had to do with the necessary logic of what you said the passage taught.

I merely responded to it and told you that it was not logically provable from the passage that faith proceeds regeneration - as you have maintained.

If it were not for your erroneous statements which indicate that the passage logically concludes that faith proceeds the work of the Spirit united with our spirit (regeneration) - we would not be having this conversation.

Beyond that - you teach that the term born again and regeneration are the same thing and they are not - no matter how many people use them interchangeably.

Life (be it spiritual or physical) simply does not begin at birth. As Jesus said, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

The natural man cannot understand the things of God concerning salvation until the Spirit of God enlightens him. No one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Spirit of God.

No one is drawn fully to the Son unless he has been given to the Son by the Father. The Holy Spirit of God is the one who draws the elect of God to the Son and they "will" come to the Son- even though many (such as Paul and myself) kick mightily for some time against the goads.

Regeneration (the reuniting of the spirits of the elect of God with the Spirit of God) must of necessity precede being "born again" through believing the message of the Word of God concerning Christ's work.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Beyond that - you teach that the term born again and regeneration are the same thing and they are not - no matter how many people use them interchangeably....
Regeneration (the reuniting of the spirits of the elect of God with the Spirit of God) must of necessity precede being "born again" through believing the message of the Word of God concerning Christ's work.

Regeneration is a term used a grand total of two times in scripture - once in Tit 3:5 and once in Matt 19:18. No where does it mean 'reuniting of the spirits of the Elect with the Spirit of God' or imply anything like one must have it prior to faith.

We can examine both verses to get a fairly decent definition from the context and the Greek.

"Greek: 3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration."
http://biblehub.com/greek/3824.htm

That certainly looks like the word literally means "new birth" or "born again!" Is there a specific reason I should not just be ignoring the Greek definition but decide for myself that it is false and incorrect?

Tit 3:5: "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit"

Matt 19:18: "Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the regeneration of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

"3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5)."
http://biblehub.com/greek/3824.htm

So both the Greek and context show 'regeneration' as a new birth. Furthermore, Titus 3:5 specifically links this new birth/being born again to "washing" - a clear link to baptism and also the same term used in Eph 5:25-27 about Christ washing the *church* to sanctify her (not washing unbelievers so they could have faith.)

I've been using 'regeneration' as per the Greek definition, as per it's context, and in it's relation to parallel scriptures which dive more into depth of how we get our new life in Christ by dying to sin/self/the law, being baptized/united with Christ, and God raising us to new life in Christ by the power of the Spirit.

On what are you basing your reasoning that a) the Greek is false b) parallel scriptures do not apply and that c) the term 'really' means 'uniting the elect with the Spirit of God' so they can then get faith?

It's worth repeating that the elect God chooses are those "in Christ (believers)" - not those chosen 'to get Christ' or 'to become in Him.' (Eph 1:1-14)

 

[Tayla]

If you think about it, if is a free gift from God in which if one confesses with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord, and they turn from their sins, they will be saved, according to Romans 10:9-11, why cant them loosing Salvation also be an option if they choose to openly denounce their faith and God and they no longer feel the need to follow God and die unrepentant in their sins.

I agree that the Calvinist view is incorrect. We can lose our salvation by rejecting it, even after once accepting it. This is the Catholic view also.

 

[Marvin Knox]

On what are you basing your reasoning that .......... the term 'really' means 'uniting the elect with the Spirit of God' .......

What exactly do you mean when you speak of spiritual "life" and spiritual "death" if not a uniting of the spirits of men with the Spirit of God (with an attendant ability of those spirits to function as originally intended) or a lack thereof?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

What exactly do you mean when you speak of spiritual "life" and spiritual "death" if not a uniting of the spirits of men with the Spirit of God (with an attendant ability of those spirits to function as originally intended) or a lack thereof?

When we repent and turn in faith to Christ, we die to sin (I Pet 2:24, Rom 6:11, etc.) die to self (Col 3:3, etc.), and die to the law (Rom 7:4-6, Gal 2:15-21) and are "united" in the death of Christ. God 'raises us to new life' in the Spirit and we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit who helps us to continue walking in this newness of life. Some other terms for all this are baptism - the cleansing of our conscience before God as we die to our own self and works and are risen with the imputed righteousness of Christ, being 'circumcised by Christ,' being 'clothed with Christ,' etc.

"In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. " Col 2:11-14

[Faith is a requirement to be raised to this new life by God - He doesn't give us new life so we can get faith.]

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:43

[Forgiveness is part of being made alive with Christ, as per the Col passage, but only those who believe receive it. Logically, then, new life cannot be a requirement to get faith.]

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." Col 3:1-2

"Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." Rom 6:3-11

"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

"By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." Jn 7:39

"But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:10-14

[This new life isn't just some vague newness or restoration of our own spirit. It is life given by the very Spirit of God who now lives in us. But we do not receive the Holy Spirit unless we believe. So, it would be illogical to claim that we must receive new life to have faith so we can then receive the Spirit.]

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:27

[We see through the parallelism of this verse that faith and baptism are linked and that our clothing ourselves with Christ comes through that faith and baptism, so that we now are considered sons as God views Christ Himself as our 'wedding garments.']

"But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 18:12

"We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Gal 2:15-21

[By faith we die to the law so that we can live for God. We put our faith in Christ so He, not the law, may justify us. We consider ourselves crucified with Christ, and live our new life by faith.]

With this new life we walk by the Spirit, grow in relationship with Christ, perform the works God calls us to do, bear fruit of the Spirit, use our gifts within the church, are conformed to Christ, etc. But scripture never says anything about us needing this new life so we can get faith. Rather, we need to repent and turn in faith so that we die with Christ and God raises us to new life in the Spirit.

 

[Marvin Knox]

............When we repent and turn in faith to Christ, we die to sin (I Pet 2:24, Rom 6:11, etc.) die to self (Col 3:3, etc.), and die to the law (Rom 7:4-6, Gal 2:15-21) and are "united" in the death of Christ. God 'raises us to new life' in the Spirit and we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit who helps us to continue walking in this newness of life. Some other terms for all this are baptism - the cleansing of our conscience before God as we die to our own self and works and are risen with the imputed righteousness of Christ, being 'circumcised by Christ,' being 'clothed with Christ,' etc...................

Absolutely no disagreement from me about the many ministries of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

I'm not sure why you are cutting and pasting all these scriptures.

You have not answered my question. If not a connection with our spirit with the Spirit of God, what is spiritual life and if not an alienation of our spirit from the Spirit of God, what is spiritual death?

..scripture never says anything about us needing this new life so we can get faith.

[This new life isn't just some vague newness or restoration of our own spirit. It is life given by the very Spirit of God who now lives in us. But we do not receive the Holy Spirit unless we believe. So, it would be illogical to claim that we must receive new life to have faith so we can then receive the Spirit.]

It is not only logical. It is scriptural.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake," Philippians 1:29

".....no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by my Father" John 6:65

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44

".......no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:3

"Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 16:16-17

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

You obviously conflate the many ministries of the Holy Spirit in our lives from before being born again by believing the Word of God to our resurrection.

You also believe, in spite of what the scriptures teach, that the natural man can understand and respond to the gospel and that our salvation is a reward for his success in doing so.

I believe you are wrong on many such counts.

Why? I don't know for sure when the scriptures are so clear about them. But I believe it is because to allow for salvation by grace in the way I have laid out from the scriptures you would find yourself agreeing with at least some of the basic concepts preached by the dreaded Calvinists.

I could be wrong. But I'm not sure what other reason there could be.

The Holy Spirit and His work within our spirits is the reason for our belief in the gospel in the first place, our sanctification after being born again, and our final perfection in resurrection.

I couldn't care less if one calls the initial work "regeneration" as the Calvinists do or not. Call it a kindling. Call it a wooing. Call it a poking with goads. Call it anything you want to call it if the Calvinist terms put you off somehow.

But the fact is that to have the Spirit is to have life and we first had Him not of ourselves but because the Father used Him to draw us to the Son before we were saved and to allow us to believe the Word of God in order to be born again and proclaim Him Lord.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Absolutely no disagreement from me about the many ministries of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

I'm not sure why you are cutting and pasting all these scriptures.

You asked how I defined spiritual life, so I posted many scriptures which describe the process by which a believer receives new spiritual life. The believer is baptized into Christ, dying to sin/self/the law, and God 'raises' the believer with new life in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. He gives the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer so he/she can continue in that new life.

You have not answered my question. If not a connection with our spirit with the Spirit of God, what is spiritual life and if not an alienation of our spirit from the Spirit of God, what is spiritual death?

I did answer your question with plenty of scriptures which define what spiritual life is - the new life in Christ which God gives to a believer by power of the Holy Spirit. 'Spiritual death' is not a term scripture explicitly uses, however death in a figurative sense is often used to represent our former, non-believer states of corruption by sin and being under the penalty of death due to being sinners under the law.

"...Apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." Rom 7:8-11

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." II Cor 3:6

"Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:8

Etc.

It is not only logical. It is scriptural.

If scripture states A precedes B precedes C, then it is not 'scriptural' to claim C is required for A. If a series of logical premises state B is dependant on A and C is dependant on B, then it is not logical to conclude that A is dependent on C. That would just create a logical paradox.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

This verse states that salvation, by grace and through faith, is a gift from God. If you are taking this verse to mean that 'faith' itself is the gift, that is an impossible translation from the Greek. Faith/Grace are in the feminine, gift is in the neuter. The gift necessarily applies to the whole antecedent clause - not to a single cherry picked word.
[Question: What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/24715?ori=167400]

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake," Philippians 1:29

The entirety of our being able to believe is based in the grace of the Father for the sake of Christ (Jn 6:40, Jn 3:16, Psalm 106:8, Rom 1:5, Jn 6:27, Eph 1:8-10, etc.) This is similar to how God gave the promise for the sake of Abraham (Gal 3:18) - without God giving that promise, how could Abraham even believe in it? This doesn't contradict other scriptures which state we must personally receive the gospel message and believe (Jn 6:28-29,) nor overturn scriptures which state that we must accept the offered Spirit with personal volition (I Cor 2:12, etc.)

Furthermore, the belief here is active/ongoing, and Paul is speaking to Christians in Phil 1:29. In context with suffering, He is showing that for Christ's sake they will suffer - but view this as a gift, along with the power of Christ which will sustain their belief in that suffering.

".....no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by my Father" John 6:65
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44

And who does the Father grant to come to Christ? Any who believe in Christ and look to the Son (Jn 6:28-40.) And who is drawn? Everyone by the death and resurrection of Christ (Jn 12:32.)

There is again some further context in this passage to consider, as it was prior to Christ's death and the Israelites of the time were partially hardened in their rebellion and love of sin. This was so that Christ, by His death, could bring salvation to the gentiles (Rom 11:25.) Specifically Jn 6 references Judas, and that his natural inclination to betray Jesus would not be softened or changed or influenced by God.

".......no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:3

Again, context! This passage is about how to evaluate people who claim to be Christians and are actively teaching others or using other apparent spiritual gifts within the church. [For example, a modern issue is whether some charismatic churches are 'actually' operating by the Spirit vs. deceived or faking. Paul's litmus test is what they are preaching - if they preach Christ as Lord, then they are operating by the Spirit.] Nothing in this passage is claiming that receiving the Holy Spirit must happen prior to salvation so that someone can 'believe in their heart and confess with their mouth' that Jesus is Lord. (Rom 10:8-13)

"Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 16:16-17

It was God who revealed Christ to the world, not man (Heb 1:1-3, Jn 1:1-14, I Tim 1:9-10, etc.) Furthermore, Peter was one of the initial apostles. He didn't learn by the human spread of the gospel message, but by the very person of Christ - who was revealed to man by the Father.

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

Opening someone's heart is not the same thing as giving them new life by the Holy Spirit (which only comes through faith and baptism in Christ.)

The Jews, as mentioned previously, had experienced a partial hardening while Christ was alive. After the resurrection, during Paul's preaching, God opened Lydia's heart. It isn't specified whether this is to undo the partial hardening, or is more like the case of Jesus opening the hearts of the Ethiopians while they listened to Him explain the scriptures (Luke 24:32)

Furthermore, the word translated 'respond' doesn't mean 'to have faith' but rather to pay attention to/heed.

It's the same term used of the crowds paying attention to Paul in Acts 8:6-8

"When the crowds heard Philip and saw the signs he performed, they all paid close attention to what he said. For with shrieks, impure spirits came out of many, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was great joy in that city." Before Paul, they had been giving their 'attention' to Simon the sorcerer.

You also believe, in spite of what the scriptures teach, that the natural man can understand and respond to the gospel and that our salvation is a reward for his success in doing so.

Um, what? A) If you have a scripture that "teaches" natural man cannot understand and respond to the gospel, please post it. The entire purpose of God choosing faith (in Christ's work) to be the method by which man could receive salvation (from Christ) was because man could never achieve salvation via the law. There's nothing in scripture that states man is too fallen to have faith or can't otherwise receive the many graces God has given man in revealing Christ, the Spirit convicting the world of sin, Christ drawing all to Him by His death, the gospel message, etc.

And salvation is not something we 'merit' - it is our humble trust in the work of Christ. It's not a reward we get for some work - scripture is very clear on that! It is the promise/inheritance we receive because God credited *Christ's* righteousness to our account since we had faith rather than try to merit it by works.

"Now to the one who works, the reward is not reckoned according to grace but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness....The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification...Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" Rom 4:4-5, Rom 4:23-25, Rom 5:9-10

Why? I don't know for sure when the scriptures are so clear about them. But I believe it is because to allow for salvation by grace in the way I have laid out from the scriptures you would find yourself agreeing with at least some of the basic concepts preached by the dreaded Calvinists.

You haven't posted clear scriptures on your views, though. You've posted verses and fragments out of context and pulled out philosophical/speculative implications from them and promoting that those man-derived implications somehow are superior to plain scriptures which say otherwise.

The Holy Spirit and His work within our spirits is the reason for our belief in the gospel in the first place, our sanctification after being born again, and our final perfection in resurrection.

The Holy Spirit does convict the world of sin prior to anyone believing (Jn 16:8-11,) but the Holy Spirit doesn't work with/change our spirits until after we believe (Gal 3:2.) That new life in the Spirit is part of our new birth.

I couldn't care less if one calls the initial work "regeneration" as the Calvinists do or not. Call it a kindling. Call it a wooing. Call it a poking with goads. Call it anything you want to call it if the Calvinist terms put you off somehow.

It 'puts me off' because you were directly insisting that the Biblical definition I gave and supported with scripture was 'wrong' but that your philosophical definition, unsupported by scripture, was 'right.' And if your only response is that we should just rename the term and *still ignore* the scripture and Greek that define and talk about it, that doesn't give me any confidence that your theory is sound.

But the fact is that to have the Spirit is to have life and we first had Him not of ourselves but because the Father used Him to draw us to the Son before we were saved and to allow us to believe the Word of God in order to be born again and proclaim Him Lord.

Those aren't 'facts' - they are claims/speculation that you have yet to support with clear and in context scripture. They are claims/speculations repeatedly debunked by scriptures already posted.

 

[Anto9us]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/osas-perseverance-of-saints-salvation-without-faith.8073735/

As if this topic needed more discussion, the thread above is in Controversial Theology subfoum; it's only five pages deep so far.