If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

[Gxg (G²)]

It would probably end up much the same way again. Humans haven't changed. A

Humans do change in their actions, even though human nature is the same and some things are consistent. We don't do things exactly the same ways as it occurred in the Dark Ages - and if they happened again, other actions that occurred during that era may not happen again due to the climate/times being different. But then again, it could be the same.

I do think some things would be consistent - there'd be at some point wrestling over who Christ is and how that plays out and more of the same..

And it never WAS supposed to be a clear, undeniable path. I think that has always been the whole point... will we trust what we think could be better done "OUR WAY"?

Curious as to why you may claim that - what was your basis behind it?

 

[Willie T]

Humans do change in their actions, even though human nature is the same and some things are consistent. We don't do things exactly the same ways as it occurred in the Dark Ages - and if they happened again, other actions that occurred during that era may not happen again due to the climate/times being different. But then again, it could be the same.

I do think some things would be consistent - there'd be at some point wrestling over who Christ is and how that plays out and more of the same..

Curious as to why you may claim that - what was your basis behind it?

The simple word, "faith."

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I certainly believe that He can accomplish all He needs, without evangelists, without the Church, without a Bible - if that is what He wants/needs to do.

If He wants it done through people (and we have the honor of co-laboring with the Holy Spirit, imo - I think it is for OUR sake that the current system is a little "messy" - God could surely do a much better job on His own!) - but if He wants it done through people and the Church, He will keep the church. And if not, then He can still accomplish all He sets out to do quite well without us, imo.

God only needs so much to work with, amazingly enough.

What you said reminds me of something I was blessed to experience years ago. Back in summer of 2012, I was blessed to see some artifacts ...as well as seeing the sheer diversity that the scriptures have produced when it comes to differing groups promoting the Gospel. Specifically, I was blessed to go to this exhibit called Passages Interactive Bible Exhibit. It was simply amazing witnessing the Biblical history/artifacts that are present within it. Passages is a 14,000-square-foot interactive, multimedia exhibition for all ages. It features some of the most exquisite and rare biblical manuscripts, printed Bibles, and historical items in the world. These cultural treasures include a Dead Sea Scroll text, ancient biblical papyri, beautifully illuminated manuscripts, early printed materials, including a portion of the Gutenberg Bible, and multiple first editions of the English Bible through the King James Version.

To view the Bible from its original writings, through time….from the time it was hand-written, up through current times, when it can be mass-produced...to witness a few with mistakes and how some took advantage of changing the Bible to meet their needs... how God has maintained it’s integrity through providing us with the original documents written two+ thousand years ago…amazing.

They actually had some Ethiopian scrolls and Bibles that I was astounded by when it came to seeing them within the role of Scriptural history - and so glad they took the time....and I'd recommend it to anyone. For more information,

Passages: Experience The Bible Like Never Before

• Passages Exhibit — Mom's Mustard Seeds

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And yet in being present there witnessing everything, part of me had to be amazed at how there were PLENTY of places around the world that didn't even have Bibles or awareness of others with them - and yet God still found ways to operate. Even in places where they lacked Scripture and Church Tradition, we see how things still survived - although there are consequences when Scripture and Tradition may be lost (more shared here and here and here). If someone asked what the basis of our faith is and if it's scripture, we'd say "Yes" - but if the scriptures were taken away, would our faith still be there? I think that even without it, God would be powerful ..

As mentioned elsewhere:

Are you asking that if there was nothing written down, and the only way to get information about this religion would be passed by word of mouth, passed down generation to generation, would there still be as large a following? Well, in this case we would only need to look to examples such as the native americans who only passed information by word of mouth, generation to generation, and their religions have stayed pretty solid.

So, if that is your consideration, I would say that there would still be Christians, but I do concede that it may look a bit differently. However, when using the example of how God kept the integrity of the bible relatively intact throughout the centuries when it was only monks making copies and translations, I would venture to guess that He would also have been faithful to keep his message intact even if it was only passed around by word of mouth.

There are others who've never had a Bible and yet did amazing exploits---and its amazing to see what went down with others who knew how to be led by the HOLY Spirit (just as it was with others whenever it came to their not having all the facts...like it was in Scripture who were only aware of the teachings of Christ or the Baptism of John rather than the new truth of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19)

Speaking from a personal perspective---as it concerns Black/West Indian culture--I can't help but consider the plights of those who were bound in slavery....often told by men who could quote the Word of God backward/forward that God called them to be slaves-----and often experienced slave masters who were considered "men of God" and yet wouldn't fight against the system (much as was the case with many historical figures in the church like George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards who owned slaves alongside many others besides that).


Many of the slaves would not even be allowed to READ THE BIBLE---let alone READ at all...WHILE the masters read scripture to their families/in churches.....and yet, the slaves still were able to get the little they did get to know of the Lord/pull through in remarkable ways, as seen in the nature of Negro Spirituals. Being a black man, I can surely see the providence of God in the Atlantic slave trade.

If studying/enjoying Negro Spirituals, the point becomes even more striking---seeing what it is that was often sung about. In studying the issue, it was amazing to see again just how diverse the issue was, just as it was growing up learning of it...and seeing how their songs so wonderfully communcated the Gospel even when it was the case that had so little access to what was written about it in scripture. And for more info, one can go online/search out the following under their respective titles/names:

• "Sweet Chariots: The Story of the the Spiritual[/url]"

• Spirituals as God's Revelation to the African Slave in America[/url]

Again, its amazing to see what occurred with those who had so little....and intriguing as well, seeing how many of the same churches condemning negros for wanting to read and know God would also say that the Theology of Negro Spirituals is/was "deficient to true BIBLICAL Teachings".


Additionally, its interesting that when it comes to interpretation and on scripture, one's experiences can shape their perspective...for when white people heard the sermon of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", they all took what was said of the Judgement Day and interpreted it as a reminder of getting right with God over "sin"/preparing to meet the Lord----and seeing the response others gave with the wailing/weeping and repentance over certain actions, it began what's known as the “Great Awakening”, one of the Greatest Revivals of all time. ...and something which all think was universally interpreted as response because of the dominant view's response based upon "sin"


However, for the Black man/Slave, they heard the words "Judgement" and had a COMPLETELY differing viewpoint---seeing the Judgement as something to REJOICE in, as it was a symbol of when God would deliver them from Slavery and pay back all wrongs done to them....giving justice....and yet, for the whites who owned slaves while supporting Jonathan Edwards in his speech on sin, they may not have taken the words of slaves as seriously.

But as said before....Ultimately, its nothing short of amazing to see what the slaves could do with so little. And on the issue, I was reminded of something I remember reading in a solid Book I got to read back in July. Its from one of the men whom I greatly admire in the faith, known as Alan Hirsh. He was born/raised Jewish in South Africa during the Apartheid System of Discrimination/Racism and is one of the leading figures within Missional Churches. And as he said best in his book entitled "The Forgotten Ways" (transcribed/written down as I own the book )

About four years ago I attended a seminar on missional church where the speaker asked the question “How many Christians do you think there were in the year 100AD?” He then asked “how many Christians do you think there were just before Constantine came on the scene, say 310AD?” Here is the somewhat surprising answer…

100AD There are as little as 25 000 Christians
310AD There are as many as 20 000 000 Christians

He then asked the question, and it has haunted me to this day, “how did they do this?” “How did they grow from being a small movement to the most significant religious force in the Roman Empire in two centuries?” Now that’s a question to initiate a journey! And delving into this question drove me to the discovery of what I will call Apostolic Genius (the inbuilt life force and guiding mechanism of God’s people) and the living components or elements that make it up. These components I have tagged missional DNA or mDNA for short.


So let me ask you the question—how did the early Christians do it? And before you respond, here are some qualifications you must factor into your answer.

• They were an illegal religion throughout this period: At best, they were tolerated; at the very worst they were very severely persecuted.

• They didn’t have any church buildings as we know them: While archaeologists have discovered chapels dating from this period, they were definite exceptions to the rule and they tended to be very small converted houses.

• They didn’t even have the Scriptures as we know them: They were putting the canon together during this period.

• They didn’t have an institutional leadership: At times of relative calm prototypal elements of institution did appear, but from what we consider institutional these were at best pre-institutional by comparison.
• They didn’t have seeker sensitive services, youth groups, worship bands, seminaries, or commentaries, etc.

• They actually made it hard to join the church. By the late second century aspiring converts had to undergo a significant initiation period to prove they were worthy.

In fact they had none of the things we would ordinarily employ to solve the problems of the church, and yet they grew from twenty five thousand to (around) twenty million in two hundred years! So, how did the early church do it? In answering that question, we can perhaps find the answer to the question for the church and mission in our day and in our context. For herein lies the powerful mystery of church in its most authentic form.


But before the example of the Early Christian Movement can be dismissed as a freak of history, there is another perhaps even more astounding manifestation of that unique and explosive power inherent in all of God’s people in our own time—namely, the underground church in China. Theirs is a truly remarkable story: About the time when Mao Zedong took power and initiated the systemic purge of religion from society; the church in China which was well established and largely modeled on Western forms due to colonization, was estimated to number about two million adherents. As part of the this systematic persecution, Mao banished all foreign missionaries and ministers, nationalized all church property, killed all the senior leaders, either killed or imprisoned all second and third level leaders, banned all public meetings of Christians with the threat of death or torture, and then proceeded to perpetrate one of the cruelest persecutions of Christians on historical record.


The explicit aim of the Cultural Revolution was to obliterate Christianity (and all religion) from China. At the end of the reign of Mao and his system in the late 70′s, and the subsequent lifting of the so called ‘Bamboo Curtain’ in the early 80′s, foreign missionaries and church officials were allowed back into the country, albeit under strict supervision. They expected to find the church totally decimated and the disciples a weak and battered people. On the contrary, they discovered that Christianity had flourished beyond all imagination. The estimates then were about 60 million Christians in China, and counting! And it has grown significantly since then. David Aikman, former Beijing bureau chief for Time magazine, suggests in his book Jesus in Beijing that Christians may number as many as 80 million.
​

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[Gxg (G²)]

The simple word, "faith."

Faith doesn't explain anything anymore than one saying they have faith that the moon is green - not saying faith is an issue....but part of being in the thread is explaining what one means point for point with scriptural basis thereof.

If it's the dynamic of "I just have faith because.." - as opposed to saying "This is what the scriptures say - which inform my faith - and this is what has actually played out for verification."

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

Powerful scripture and thank you for sharing it

 

[Willie T]

Faith doesn't explain anything anymore than one saying they have faith that the moon is green - not saying faith is an issue....but part of being in the thread is explaining what one means point for point with scriptural basis thereof.

If it's the dynamic of "I just have faith because.." - as opposed to saying "This is what the scriptures say - which inform my faith - and this is what has actually played out for verification."

Not into games. Sorry.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Not into games. Sorry.

Not into them either - hence, why I asked you to do as the OP noted when it came to taking the matter seriously/sharing based on SCRIPTURE and history - not just "I have faith"..if one can't do that, that's fine - but refusing to do so in a thread asking for that to occur/dismissing requests on the matter comes off as a game rather than respecting what the OP specifically was about. If you cannot verify your points from scripture (or history), then the thread is not for you - and thus, as said before, one needs to actually show (not simply claim) where you can verify your point that was made earlier when claiming " it never WAS supposed to be a clear, undeniable path. I think that has always been the whole point... will we trust what we think could be better done "OUR WAY"?"


You made a claim (consistent in many ways with prior claims as it concerns your views on Church Tradition not being important and other things noted) and claiming "the simple word 'faith'' doesn't cut it anymore than one claiming "I think FOLLOWING Christ was not meant to be understood" and saying their basis was "faith" as if that's sufficient ...even though scripture doesn't verify or show that. As it concerns respectfully backing it up, one can either do so or not. But not doing so and making claims alone (or attempting resorting to mockery if asked on it) is not the focus - there are other threads one can do that. Period

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have read books (biographies) of people who were in non-Christian places (one was a Muslim woman, one I believe was in India) as well as a number of shorter pieces about people who recognize that there is a God, and He responds to them apart from the church.

To deal with the isolation is a very real reality that can be hard to handle - yet it's interesting what can come of it. I just feel saddened when others (on their own) find ways of reaching others because they had to be innovative in times of loss - and yet when connecting with the larger Church, it's claimed "What you did was worthless" as if their work was dismissed by the Lord.

 

[TillICollapse]

Not really rare, IMHO - sometimes, people tend to focus on the wrong things and end up missing where many good things occur/are normative - and no, I don't really concern myself with teaching to preach. I hope that's not your mindset either - if you were joking.

No my mindset is not posting to teach/preach either. That would be intellectually dishonest imo lol

"Again" wouldn't need to be left out if one were accurate - as it happening for a second time would indeed be just that.

Okay I disagree. So before I say why I disagree, let me make sure I'm understanding the way you are viewing God revealing Himself to Abraham and what a "second time" would entail ..

How one takes that verse makes a myriad of difference - obviously, believers teach one another and we're called to do so repeatedly by the Apostles since it wasn't just a "Me and Holy Spirit are all we need - so you can't TEACH ME anything - the Spirit will show me!!"

Yes I understand the "All I need is God, not YOU!" mentality, and I wasn't advocating that (refer to my first post in this thread ). However telling someone to know the Lord, is different than a group of children learning about their Father and each other together. So yes, I understand no man is an island, etc.

<snip> And yet we have the Holy Spirit who teaches His Church. And like Abraham, the Lord can work with us individually ...
More than understand where you're coming from - many have also experienced and noted this when it came to learning on what the early Church noted and went through...being amazed at thinking they were the only ones considering something when in fact they were tapping into an Eternal memory of what had already occurred and been present in the Church. But even if that record of what the Church experienced wasn't there, God is faithful and His Spirit can still work within us - even when the vernacular may not be there like it was for others, in the same way others may end up working with nature using a specific method to grow something even though what it was called before was different.

Of course, some people may end up doing something RADICALLY different with something that was not meant to be used in a certain way

And being radically different, is often where the rubber meets the road. If I am saying, "God wants me to do this," and someone else is saying, "No, God doesn't," ... we have an issue. And it's not that I think those issues are bad ... it's an opportunity to perhaps separate the wheat from the chaff, actually. Perhaps.

Interesting take on what Luke 18 noted when it came to praying/not giving up and yet noting that faith on the Earth is something that He wondered whether he'd find....

THere's nothing saying that what he noted can only play out with the Church existing on the Earth and PLENTY of people having faith the way that He had in mind - as the faith he was noting may've been the dynamic of having faith in prayer the way he noted in his analogy with the Widow/judge .....but it could also be related to faith being either rare or something that wouldn't be found in the Earth.

That is perhaps a good point to consider, in what manner was He referencing "faith" ? Hmm ...

Things can be tweaked and sadly this has happened before as well - even went down in Communist Russia at one point when it came to the Church being controlled by the State and altered a lot....with those in the real church having to go underground.

But on the same token, people can also tweak things in the reverse by assuming that everything tradition wise must be suspected as if it IS off - like those saying "Christianity was really based in Egyptology and the Pharaohs of old " or saying Jesus was a myth that cannot be verified in history and that one should trust no one due to all the suspicion of things being tampered with.

Things have arguably been tweaked since Adam, Eve, and the snake decided to make their choices in regards to what was said by God and what was meant, and what to do with that. Personally, the simple answer would have been to *clarify* with God directly. Take what the snake said, their confusion, what they wanted and didn't want ... and go reclarify with God what was true or not. But instead they acted on a guess when they knew better. One could say they set the very first tradition of man right then and there as it regards religion: Attempting to discern truth by listening to those God has given to help us (even though it contradicts what God said directly to them), and also attempting to listen to other influences, without clarifying any of them personally or *collectively* with God.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No my mindset is not posting to teach/preach either. That would be intellectually dishonest imo lol

Cool

Okay I disagree. So before I say why I disagree, let me make sure I'm understanding the way you are viewing God revealing Himself to Abraham and what a "second time" would entail ..

To be clear, obviously I don't say "Second time" as in an absolute sense of it being the SECOND time literally - he did so repeatedly in history and it's said as a Generalization to make the point of God doing the same thing. However, what I am saying is said in the sense that the dynamics of how God spoke to Abraham may come around - abeit in a different culture...

Yes I understand the "All I need is God, not YOU!" mentality, and I wasn't advocating that (refer to my first post in this thread ). However telling someone to know the Lord, is different than a group of children learning about their Father and each other together. So yes, I understand no man is an island, etc.

Read your first post already - but I understand where you're coming from..

And being radically different, is often where the rubber meets the road. If I am saying, "God wants me to do this," and someone else is saying, "No, God doesn't," ... we have an issue. And it's not that I think those issues are bad ... it's an opportunity to perhaps separate the wheat from the chaff, actually. Perhaps.

St. Paul had that to a degree.

As another noted best (even though I don't agree with all the views/opinions of the author or site) for brief excerpt:

In the books of Acts, we have an example of people giving Paul directional guidance and Paul ignoring it, even though it was from the &#8220;Spirit.&#8221; Here is the passage: &#8220;After looking up the disciples, we stayed there [Tyre] seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem&#8221; (Acts 21:4). From Tyre they journeyed to Ptolmais and then Caesarea. There a prophet spoke about Paul&#8217;s trip:

As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, &#8220;This is what the Holy Spirit says: &#8216;In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.&#8217;&#8221; When we had heard this, we as well as the local residents began begging him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, &#8220;What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.&#8221; (Acts 21:10-13)​

First the Spirit spoke through believers that Paul should not go to Jerusalem and then a valid prophet spoke by the Holy Spirit telling Paul what would happen if he did go. Yet Paul went. If guidance that we know (through the inspired writer Luke) was from the Spirit was not binding on Paul, how much less is subjective guidance that we do not know is from the Spirit binding on decisions that are within the realm of Christian liberty? The story of Paul&#8217;s journey to Jerusalem also invalidates the idea that decisions by the church about what the Spirit is saying are binding on the individual. Earlier in Acts we read: &#8220;Now after these things were finished, Paul purposed in the spirit to go to Jerusalem after he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, saying, &#8220;After I have been there, I must also see Rome&#8221; (Acts 19:21). Paul&#8217;s own decision to go the Jerusalem was not overridden by future words from the Spirit or prophecy from the church. Furthermore, once the church realized that Paul had made his own decision, we read this: &#8220;And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, &#8216;The will of the Lord be done!&#8217;&#8221; (Acts 21:14). God&#8217;s will was not revealed by the Spirit speaking through church members or by a prophet, but by Paul&#8217;s decision. Thus God&#8217;s providential will in matters of Christian liberty is made known by the decision of the person involved.




​

Not all the Apostles themselves agreed at all points and even they had variation - Peter at odds with Paul at times and James being different than Barnabas....why we act as if there weren't different schools of thought is unfortunate.

That is perhaps a good point to consider, in what manner was He referencing "faith" ? Hmm ...

It would interesting to study...

Things have arguably been tweaked since Adam, Eve, and the snake decided to make their choices in regards to what was said by God and what was meant, and what to do with that. Personally, the simple answer would have been to *clarify* with God directly. Take what the snake said, their confusion, what they wanted and didn't want ... and go reclarify with God what was true or not. But instead they acted on a guess when they knew better. One could say they set the very first tradition of man right then and there as it regards religion: Attempting to discern truth by listening to those God has given to help us (even though it contradicts what God said directly to them), and also attempting to listen to other influences, without clarifying any of them personally or *collectively* with God.

Good point..

There's a dynamic of always going by second-hand information or ignoring what God has said on the issue - and not asking the Lord to confirm it or seeing the fruit thereof as to whether it leads to being more like Christ in the end of it all.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If I am saying, "God wants me to do this," and someone else is saying, "No, God doesn't," ... we have an issue. And it's not that I think those issues are bad ... it's an opportunity to perhaps separate the wheat from the chaff, actually. Perhaps.

I don't think disagreements automatically become a "Wheat separate from Chaff" dynamic - as has often been noted in the history of the Church when it came to misunderstanding in communicating ideas and assuming the worse of another before seeing what they actually said.

 

[TillICollapse]

Cool
To be clear, obviously I don't say "Second time" as in an absolute sense of it being the SECOND time literally - he did so repeatedly in history and it's said as a Generalization to make the point of God doing the same thing. However, what I am saying is said in the sense that the dynamics of how God spoke to Abraham may come around - abeit in a different culture...
Read your first post already - but I understand where you're coming from...

Ohhhhh okay, I gotcha
Yes that makes sense you were using "second time" in that context then, considering the ideas of "reboots" and such.

ASt. Paul had that to a degree.

Yes I was thinking of Paul as being an example of it par excellence, but I didn't point it out. I don't know why lol

As another noted best (even though I don't agree with all the views/opinions of the author or site) for brief excerpt:

In the books of Acts, we have an example of people giving Paul directional guidance and Paul ignoring it, even though it was from the “Spirit.” Here is the passage: “After looking up the disciples, we stayed there [Tyre] seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem” (Acts 21:4). From Tyre they journeyed to Ptolmais and then Caesarea. There a prophet spoke about Paul’s trip:

As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” When we had heard this, we as well as the local residents began begging him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 21:10-13)​

First the Spirit spoke through believers that Paul should not go to Jerusalem and then a valid prophet spoke by the Holy Spirit telling Paul what would happen if he did go. Yet Paul went. If guidance that we know (through the inspired writer Luke) was from the Spirit was not binding on Paul, how much less is subjective guidance that we do not know is from the Spirit binding on decisions that are within the realm of Christian liberty? The story of Paul’s journey to Jerusalem also invalidates the idea that decisions by the church about what the Spirit is saying are binding on the individual. Earlier in Acts we read: “Now after these things were finished, Paul purposed in the spirit to go to Jerusalem after he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, saying, “After I have been there, I must also see Rome” (Acts 19:21). Paul’s own decision to go the Jerusalem was not overridden by future words from the Spirit or prophecy from the church. Furthermore, once the church realized that Paul had made his own decision, we read this: “And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, ‘The will of the Lord be done!’” (Acts 21:14). God’s will was not revealed by the Spirit speaking through church members or by a prophet, but by Paul’s decision. Thus God’s providential will in matters of Christian liberty is made known by the decision of the person involved.​

Hmmmmmmmmm ........ this is a nice rabbit trail I'm going to have to think on this one, esp the bolded part. Nice Dude lol

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Not all the Apostles themselves agreed at all points and even they had variation - Peter at odds with Paul at times and James being different than Barnabas....why we act as if there weren't different schools of thought is unfortunate.

Well, that they were at odds with each other at times doesn't really bother me all that much. I can see why it might some, but I see it almost like ... different options per person/task, same foundational freedom throughout.

 

[Gibs]

There is one Church the originator of, of which did not fall. He gave us His Word it would not, so it does exist today however few the members.

Here is is,

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Rightly discerned it was Himself the Rock He built it upon, He being the Chief Cornerstone.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Ohhhhh okay, I gotcha
Yes that makes sense you were using "second time" in that context then, considering the ideas of "reboots" and such.

Cool - when keeping things in mind regarding the "reboot" dynamic (like what occurred in the Matrix film trilogy ), it can make more sense..

Yes I was thinking of Paul as being an example of it par excellence, but I didn't point it out. I don't know why lol

Cool to kn

ow you were considering St. Paul..

Hmmmmmmmmm ........ this is a nice rabbit trail I'm going to have to think on this one, esp the bolded part. Nice Dude lol

Well, that they were at odds with each other at times doesn't really bother me all that much. I can see why it might some, but I see it almost like ... different options per person/task, same foundational freedom throughout

That's a good way of considering it - unity within diversity.....not conformity. How this plays out is an ever-continual debate - some good places for reference being The Ecumenical Early Church: A Reply to Pastor Wedgeworth | Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy and Eclectic Orthodoxy | Gospel and Church Fathers (as well as here in Unity in Diversity: The Opportunities and Challenges )

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There is one Church the originator of, of which did not fall.

Of course...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hmmmmmmmmm ........ this is a nice rabbit trail I'm going to have to think on this one, esp the bolded part. Nice Dude lol
t.

I thought it was relevant since it was evident that believers were led by the Spirit of God to warn Paul - even though Paul claimed he was led by the Spirit in going to Jerusalem and it came down to a matter of realizing that what would happen would be the final factor in seeing what may have been God's Will. As it concerns the OP issue, if things started over again in the light of churches/Bibles being gone and reboot, I wouldn't see it as a problem for things to be in clashes at times since what will be will be - just like the Protestant Reformation, Counter-Reformation and many other movements (in addition to what the Orthodox Church was doing prior with their own debates....Non-Chalcedonian vs Chalcedonian, etc.) all seemed to developed in different ways yet many are of the mindset that such movements were allowed by the Lord in His Wisdom (even though it doesn't make full sense to us) - and likewise, if it started again, differing thoughts and divisions would have similar dynamics.

 

[Noxot]

I think the church is always looking different since she is still growing.

reminds me of:

Jer 51:12-19 (SLT)
Lift ye up a signal against the walls of Babel, strengthen the watch, set up the watchers, prepare the ambushes: for Jehovah also purposed and also did what he spake to the inhabitants of Babel. Dwelling upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end came, the measure of thy plunder. Jehovah of armies sware by his soul: That if I filled thee with men as with locusts, and they struck up a shout against thee. He made the earth by his power, he prepared the habitable globe by his wisdom, and by his understanding he stretched forth the heavens. For a voice he gives a multitude of waters in the heavens; and he will bring up the clouds, from the extremity of the earth, making lightnings to the rain, and he will bring forth the wind from his treasures. Every man was brutish from knowledge; every founder was ashamed from his carved image: for his founding is a falsehood, and no spirit in them. They are vanity, the work of delusions: in the time of reviewing they shall perish. Not as these the portions of Jacob; for he the former of all: and the rod of his inheritance: Jehovah of armies his name.

Matt 6:19-23 (SLT)
Treasure not up to you treasures upon earth, where moth and gnawing destroy, and thieves dig through and steal: But treasure to you treasures in heaven, where neither moth, nor gnawing destroy; and where thieves dig not through, nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye; if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be dark. If therefore the light which in thee is darkness, how much the darkness.

humans can be hindered but God can not be, I suppose if we depend to know God based on things in this earth then we would really be in trouble but if people are in Christ they can easily do whatever God wants them to do. knowing God has nothing to do with anything of this reality, of this physical universe, it comes directly from God and only children need people over them, which is the whole point of the earthly church. humans tend to take what they know and then slay themselves with that and so it hardly matters what they think they know if they are not abiding in God they are already deceived and very greatly deceived at that. any real saint of God will tell you that they did not get their teachings of themselves but rather God gave it to them, and so everything is fine unless God is not fine, since he is the source of the knowledge and the truth. seems like lots of people depend on their churches to know God, they should rather seek to know God for themselves. if they are seeking God, why would they keep on believing that God is far away? the prophets did not believe such things but often they were persecuted by people who said they know God, the chief example being Jesus himself.

humans have for far to long depended on the scriptures to know God. the scriptures are from God but the word of God is the Son of God in the heart, it is "Christ in me, the hope of glory":

Luke 8:10-18 (SLT)
And he said, To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: and to the rest in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. And this is the parable: The seed is the word of God. And they by the way are they hearing; then comes the devil, and takes away the word from their heart, lest having believed, they should be saved. And they upon the rock, who, when they hear, with joy receive the word; and they have no root, who for a time believe, and in time of trial fly away. And that having fallen into thorns, and they are they having heard, and with cares and riches, and pleasures of life going forth, are choked, and bring not to maturity. And that in the good earth, they are they which, in a fair and good heart, having heard, keep the word, and bring forth fruit with patience. None, having lighted a light, covers it with a vessel, or puts under a bed; but sets upon a candlestick, that they entering might see the light. For there is nothing hid, which should not be made manifest; nor concealed, which should not be made known, and come clear. See therefore how ye hear: for whoever should have, shall be given him; and whoever should not have, and what he seems to have shall be taken away from him.

the root of truth is not the bible, it is the Spirit of God. if you only depend on the bible to know God you have already fallen away from God, because atheist read the bible and it is not to their salvation at all and so we must grow stronger roots, in God himself, as opposed to any secondary object. the whole point of the bible is for us to live the life with God, and so what is the point if you are not close to God? and if you are, then why would someone worry so much about the bible being destroyed, when they themselves become the son of God?

Matt 4:4 (SLT)
And he having answered, said, It has been written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word going forth through the mouth of God.

or for a more full explanation of what happens when we do not abide by every word that comes from the mouth of God:

Deut 8:2-20 (SLT)
And remember thou all the way which Jehovah thy God caused thee to go this forty years in the desert in order to humble thee, to try thee, to know what is in thy heart, whether thou shalt watch his commands or not. And he will humble thee, and cause thee to hunger, and will give thee to eat manna which thou knewest not, and thy fathers knew not; so that he caused thee to know that upon bread only man shall not live, but upon all going out of the mouth of Jehovah shall man live. Thy garments decayed not from thee, and thy feet swelled not this forty years. And know thou with thy heart that as a man will chastise his son, Jehovah thy God chastises thee. And watch thou the commands of Jehovah thy God, to go in his ways and to fear him. For Jehovah thy God brings thee to a good land, a land of torrents of water, fountains, and depths going forth in the valley and in the mountain; A land of wheat and barley and the vine and the fig tree and the pomegranate, a land of the olive tree, of oil and honey; A land where thou shalt eat bread in it not with poverty; thou shalt not want any thing in it; a land whose stones, iron, and out of its mountains thou shalt hew out brass. And thou atest and wert satisfied, and didst bless Jehovah thy God for the good land which he gave to thee. Watch to thyself lest thou shalt forget Jehovah thy God, not watching his commands and his judgments and his laws which I command thee this day: Lest thou shalt eat and thou wert satisfied, and thou wilt build good houses and thou dwelt; And thy cattle and thy sheep shall multiply, and thy silver and thy gold shall multiply to thee, and all which is in thee shall multiply; And thy heart was lifted up and thou didst forget Jehovah thy God bringing thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of servants; He causing thee to go in the great and fearful desert, the fiery serpent and the scorpion, and a thirsty land, where is no water: he bringing forth to thee water from the rock of flint; He giving thee to eat manna in the desert which thy fathers knew not, in order to humble thee, and in order to try thee to do thee good in thy lost state: And thou saidst in thy heart, My strength and the bone of my handmade for me this wealth. And remember Jehovah thy God; for he gave to thee strength to make wealth in order to set up his covenant, which he sware to our fathers, as this day. And it was, if forgetting, thou shalt forget Jehovah thy God, and thou wentest after other gods, and served them and worshipped to them, I testified against you this day, that perishing, ye shall perish. As the nations which Jehovah destroys before you, so shall ye be destroyed, because ye will not hear to the voice of Jehovah your God.

if all history was destroyed it could do us evil or good, which ever we pick.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

Well .. since people only come to Jesus by the father drawing them . it might actually help the message .

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think the church is always looking different since she is still growing.

reminds me of:

Jer 51:12-19 (SLT)
Lift ye up a signal against the walls of Babel, strengthen the watch, set up the watchers, prepare the ambushes: for Jehovah also purposed and also did what he spake to the inhabitants of Babel. Dwelling upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end came, the measure of thy plunder. Jehovah of armies sware by his soul: That if I filled thee with men as with locusts, and they struck up a shout against thee. He made the earth by his power, he prepared the habitable globe by his wisdom, and by his understanding he stretched forth the heavens. For a voice he gives a multitude of waters in the heavens; and he will bring up the clouds, from the extremity of the earth, making lightnings to the rain, and he will bring forth the wind from his treasures. Every man was brutish from knowledge; every founder was ashamed from his carved image: for his founding is a falsehood, and no spirit in them. They are vanity, the work of delusions: in the time of reviewing they shall perish. Not as these the portions of Jacob; for he the former of all: and the rod of his inheritance: Jehovah of armies his name.

Matt 6:19-23 (SLT)
Treasure not up to you treasures upon earth, where moth and gnawing destroy, and thieves dig through and steal: But treasure to you treasures in heaven, where neither moth, nor gnawing destroy; and where thieves dig not through, nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye; if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be dark. If therefore the light which in thee is darkness, how much the darkness.
.

Good scriptures to keep in mind and thanks for sharing them

humans can be hindered but God can not be, I suppose if we depend to know God based on things in this earth then we would really be in trouble but if people are in Christ they can easily do whatever God wants them to do. knowing God has nothing to do with anything of this reality, of this physical universe, it comes directly from God and only children need people over them, which is the whole point of the earthly church. humans tend to take what they know and then slay themselves with that and so it hardly matters what they think they know if they are not abiding in God they are already deceived and very greatly deceived at that. any real saint of God will tell you that they did not get their teachings of themselves but rather God gave it to them, and so everything is fine unless God is not fine, since he is the source of the knowledge and the truth. seems like lots of people depend on their churches to know God, they should rather seek to know God for themselves. if they are seeking God, why would they keep on believing that God is far away? the prophets did not believe such things but often they were persecuted by people who said they know God, the chief example being Jesus himself.


humans have for far to long depended on the scriptures to know God. the scriptures are from God but the word of God is the Son of God in the heart, it is "Christ in me, the hope of glory":

Luke 8:10-18 (SLT)
And he said, To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: and to the rest in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. And this is the parable: The seed is the word of God. And they by the way are they hearing; then comes the devil, and takes away the word from their heart, lest having believed, they should be saved. And they upon the rock, who, when they hear, with joy receive the word; and they have no root, who for a time believe, and in time of trial fly away. And that having fallen into thorns, and they are they having heard, and with cares and riches, and pleasures of life going forth, are choked, and bring not to maturity. And that in the good earth, they are they which, in a fair and good heart, having heard, keep the word, and bring forth fruit with patience. None, having lighted a light, covers it with a vessel, or puts under a bed; but sets upon a candlestick, that they entering might see the light. For there is nothing hid, which should not be made manifest; nor concealed, which should not be made known, and come clear. See therefore how ye hear: for whoever should have, shall be given him; and whoever should not have, and what he seems to have shall be taken away from him.

the root of truth is not the bible, it is the Spirit of God. if you only depend on the bible to know God you have already fallen away from God, because atheist read the bible and it is not to their salvation at all and so we must grow stronger roots, in God himself, as opposed to any secondary object. the whole point of the bible is for us to live the life with God, and so what is the point if you are not close to God? and if you are, then why would someone worry so much about the bible being destroyed, when they themselves become the son of God?

Matt 4:4 (SLT)
And he having answered, said, It has been written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word going forth through the mouth of God.

or for a more full explanation of what happens when we do not abide by every word that comes from the mouth of God:

Deut 8:2-20 (SLT)
And remember thou all the way which Jehovah thy God caused thee to go this forty years in the desert in order to humble thee, to try thee, to know what is in thy heart, whether thou shalt watch his commands or not. And he will humble thee, and cause thee to hunger, and will give thee to eat manna which thou knewest not, and thy fathers knew not; so that he caused thee to know that upon bread only man shall not live, but upon all going out of the mouth of Jehovah shall man live. Thy garments decayed not from thee, and thy feet swelled not this forty years. And know thou with thy heart that as a man will chastise his son, Jehovah thy God chastises thee. And watch thou the commands of Jehovah thy God, to go in his ways and to fear him. For Jehovah thy God brings thee to a good land, a land of torrents of water, fountains, and depths going forth in the valley and in the mountain; A land of wheat and barley and the vine and the fig tree and the pomegranate, a land of the olive tree, of oil and honey; A land where thou shalt eat bread in it not with poverty; thou shalt not want any thing in it; a land whose stones, iron, and out of its mountains thou shalt hew out brass. And thou atest and wert satisfied, and didst bless Jehovah thy God for the good land which he gave to thee. Watch to thyself lest thou shalt forget Jehovah thy God, not watching his commands and his judgments and his laws which I command thee this day: Lest thou shalt eat and thou wert satisfied, and thou wilt build good houses and thou dwelt; And thy cattle and thy sheep shall multiply, and thy silver and thy gold shall multiply to thee, and all which is in thee shall multiply; And thy heart was lifted up and thou didst forget Jehovah thy God bringing thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of servants; He causing thee to go in the great and fearful desert, the fiery serpent and the scorpion, and a thirsty land, where is no water: he bringing forth to thee water from the rock of flint; He giving thee to eat manna in the desert which thy fathers knew not, in order to humble thee, and in order to try thee to do thee good in thy lost state: And thou saidst in thy heart, My strength and the bone of my handmade for me this wealth. And remember Jehovah thy God; for he gave to thee strength to make wealth in order to set up his covenant, which he sware to our fathers, as this day. And it was, if forgetting, thou shalt forget Jehovah thy God, and thou wentest after other gods, and served them and worshipped to them, I testified against you this day, that perishing, ye shall perish. As the nations which Jehovah destroys before you, so shall ye be destroyed, because ye will not hear to the voice of Jehovah your God.

One scripture that came to mind...

John 5:39
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that ..You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, et you refuse to come to me to have life.
​

N.T Wright actually had an amazing review on scripture I appreciated - as seen in How Can The Bible Be Authoritative? by N.T. Wright - NT Wright Page

N.T. Wright on How Our Worldview Impacts Our Reading of Scripture - YouTube
N.T. Wright on the Authority of the Bible 7 - YouTube

It is interesting to see the way we end up worshipping scripture so much that we end up devaluing it and what it was meant to help us on - and we end up missing the Lord.

It is because of that dynamic that I've often wondered how the world would be if Scripture wasn't present - or at least less present than what we see today. Would people still worship it or would they be transformed by it - or would people end up abusing it and enshrining it? We already see it where scripture has been used to harm others - and the way that has occurred cannot be escaped..

You make a lot of good points as it concerns the way things develop...

if all history was destroyed it could do us evil or good, which ever we pick

Very true...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well .. since people only come to Jesus by the father drawing them . it might actually help the message .

Why would you say that?