If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
]n all of these things, we get to "practice" and we learn and are made into His image as we cooperate with Him and love one another.

There is also the old trick - have you known a schoolteacher who assigned one student to teach another who was just barely below their level? In teaching material, we tend to learn it better ourselves, and examine it more. I think it works even better for conscientious adults than for children. ;) But in teaching, preaching, studying together, and so on, we are able to sharpen our own skills and knowledge - iron sharpens iron.

I think we benefit one another in ways like this, as well as having the honor of working alongside Him. I believe the way it is "set up" is really all for our own benefit.

At least that's what I think. :)
It occurred to me recently that learning together can be just as damaging as not learning at all.....specifically if/when it leads to bad things taught in the group - and in a world without Bibles/Church history and starting over, that'd be a big factor I think....
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Gxg (G²);65160293 said:
It occurred to me recently that learning together can be just as damaging as not learning at all.....specifically if/when it leads to bad things taught in the group - and in a world without Bibles/Church history and starting over, that'd be a big factor I think....

Certainly bad learning is a problem. We have seen cults and heresies ...

But on the other hand, if each person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we have much "witness" as to the truth or lie of a teaching. It may not be a perfect situation - we may ignore what God teaches, or we may heed evil influences or let our own hearts lead us astray. So the need for really and truly seeking God and being as close to Him as possible to prevent error.

With a community consisting all or mostly of people like that, the chance of error should be greatly reduced (especially if one man is not placed TOO highly so as to be in a position to lead the others into error against their consciences).

Not perfect, but it can be safer than "going it alone" ... where one is very prone to being led astray by one's own heart.

You do have a point though. If one is leaning carefully on God, and He is keeping one in the Truth, then exposing oneself to potentially false teachers can also be dangerous.

I think it depends on the situation and goes both ways. But the more we depend, and the more of us depend, and are truly surrendered to God - the better off we must be.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Certainly bad learning is a problem. We have seen cults and heresies ...
Indeed - lots of them (more in http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture27b.html ) ...and all of them able to spread when the means of communication were available for a certain area that the Church didn't have - and in other places, things could spread quick when there was a massive disconnection and the Church found out on it months later after getting letters saying ideas dominated a certain area. The people growing up learning of the idea/having that be their first exposure to Christ wouldn't know any better - nor would they think they were isolated - yet the outgrowth of what happened was just that.


But on the other hand, if each person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we have much "witness" as to the truth or lie of a teaching. It may not be a perfect situation - we may ignore what God teaches, or we may heed evil influences or let our own hearts lead us astray. So the need for really and truly seeking God and being as close to Him as possible to prevent error.

With a community consisting all or mostly of people like that, the chance of error should be greatly reduced (especially if one man is not placed TOO highly so as to be in a position to lead the others into error against their consciences).
Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit does make a world of difference....although in light of a world without Scripture, how to understand what the Holy Spirit was about would be difficult. There'd surely be some trial and error for a time - and thus, allowance for bad ideologies to flourish since there'd be no barometer to gauge things by as in the Scriptures/Tradition...

Not perfect, but it can be safer than "going it alone" ... where one is very prone to being led astray by one's own heart.

You do have a point though. If one is leaning carefully on God, and He is keeping one in the Truth, then exposing oneself to potentially false teachers can also be dangerous.

I think it depends on the situation and goes both ways. But the more we depend, and the more of us depend, and are truly surrendered to God - the better off we must be.
Seeing that nothing is perfect and things can spread, I've always wondered how that would play out if things began again since people can be sincere in their devotion even though their application may be off - thinking they are following True Teachers when in fact what they're in may be false..
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Gxg (G²);65160512 said:
Indeed - lots of them (more in Lecture 27: Heretics, Heresies and the Church ) ...and all of them able to spread when the means of communication were available for a certain area that the Church didn't have - and in other places, things could spread quick when there was a massive disconnection and the Church found out on it months later after getting letters saying ideas dominated a certain area. The people growing up learning of the idea/having that be their first exposure to Christ wouldn't know any better - nor would they think they were isolated - yet the outgrowth of what happened was just that.


Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit does make a world of difference....although in light of a world without Scripture, how to understand what the Holy Spirit was about would be difficult. There'd surely be some trial and error for a time - and thus, allowance for bad ideologies to flourish since there'd be no barometer to gauge things by as in the Scriptures/Tradition...

Seeing that nothing is perfect and things can spread, I've always wondered how that would play out if things began again since people can be sincere in their devotion even though their application may be off - thinking they are following True Teachers when in fact what they're in may be false..

One of the things I am thankful for is that heaven is apparently not about those who have the best theology are the ones that get in. Jesus said the Kingdom of heaven was made up of "such as these" ... little children.

I have wondered how God will handle the situations where those with sincere hearts were misled. But I know that He is loving and just.

And yes, without Scriptures, it would be MUCH harder to follow the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that He could do it, but as for me that is often how I know what I know.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
One of the things I am thankful for is that heaven is apparently not about those who have the best theology are the ones that get in. Jesus said the Kingdom of heaven was made up of "such as these" ... little children.

I have wondered how God will handle the situations where those with sincere hearts were misled. But I know that He is loving and just.

And yes, without Scriptures, it would be MUCH harder to follow the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that He could do it, but as for me that is often how I know what I know.
Would you say that, in a world where both scripture and Church history was effectively eradicated, there'd be a set-up for others to be placed back in the roles the Apostles were in - or that the Church would end up going back to previous models of development? I agree, by the way, with the mindset that God is faithful to work with His people in any point of existence....
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Gxg (G²);65161613 said:
Would you say that, in a world where both scripture and Church history was effectively eradicated, there'd be a set-up for others to be placed back in the roles the Apostles were in - or that the Church would end up going back to previous models of development? I agree, by the way, with the mindset that God is faithful to work with His people in any point of existence....

Well, any answer on my part is purely speculation.

I don't know that I would say that the Twelve would be "replaced", but ...

What we do know is that we benefit from each other, we grow, we learn from each other. Those the are spiritually mature naturally guide those who are new in the faith.

I suspect that new "Fathers" of a sort would be raised up. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by previous models of development beyond that?

One thing that really bears considering, when I look at what the saint endured during early church history, and how fast the church grew, and also the situation with the persecuted church in China, and yet their growth ... it seems to me to be unavoidable to realize that the blood of martyrs and the pressures of persecution grow the REAL church.

(Mega churches in the US might not be the best example.)

If the Bible is eradicated (God forbid!) then one would have to assume there was likely persecution (or else global calamity) of some sort. But yes, I think the Holy Spirit would guide, God would reintroduce His word (through whatever means He deems fitting - anything from inspiration to angels to who knows what?), and there would come of that believers who would grow in the faith and then transfer that knowledge to others and help them to grow.

That's what I think anyway. :)
 
Upvote 0

DarylFawcett

Ticket Support Manager
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2005
46,363
4,137
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟981,204.00
Country
Canada
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
When Christ raised up the church, the devil tried to destroy that church by having the Christians fed to the lions, etc. The problem was there were more taking the place of those who were killed, therefore, the church continued to grow instead of diminish. This was when the church was basically outlawed by the then ruling government.

When the devil saw that the church was growing, the devil changed his tactic by no longer outlawing the church. The devil influenced the acceptance of the church. The devil then began to contaminate the church with false doctrine and continues to do this to this very day. Remember that Paul warned us about wolves in sheeps clothing infiltrating the church. Why destroy that which can be infiltrated?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟22,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
As it is a hypothetical that would never happen because of the promise of Christ in Matthew, I don't know if the hypothetical is truly worth discussion.

However, I hypothesize that those who came after would be utterly confused. Sola Scriptura would predict that they would come to the truth, but this means simply that Baptists would think they would come to Baptist theology, Methodists would think it would be Methodist Theology.

However much we claim to worship the same God, with no offense intended, we do not. We can all claim to be Christians, but many of us, when asked to describe God, would describe God in a way differently than others here.

This is not to say that we do not WISH to serve and follow the same God. But we describe God differently, and, in effect, therefore follow different God and gods.

And this is true even for people within the boundaries of the same creed. We Orthodox, together, may be worshiping the same God in practice. But when we sin, we sometimes say to ourselves, "God didn't really mean it when He commanded us to pray, or fast or _____". By thus doing, we replace God with a more palatable fantasy deity.

This is intentional idolatry.

However, there is unintentional idolatry, which, more often than we would like to admit, is the reason for so many schisms that we have lost count (well...Someone probably counted, but it wasn't me).

Here is an example:

John describes God as an all-powerful being Who controls the destiny of every person. John's theology is described by Jacob and Jingleheimer-Schmidt, behind his back, as God the Micromanager. John says that there is literally nothing he can do, or should do, for salvation, but that God has already decided. As a result, rather than evangelize, John logically decides that he should stay at home, rationalizing that God wants him to do that or else he wouldn't do that.

Jacob Describes God as an all powerful being Who gives salvation to those who only ask. He also states that after you ask, nothing more is necessary for this salvation. John and Jingleheimer-Schmidt describe this theology as "The benevolent Contract-Writer". Because of this, Jacob is faithful to come to visitation and is active as a teacher in Sunday School. However, when not in the presence of church members, he continuously sins, never looking to defeat sin, because he needs not worry about that since his salvation is secure forever.

Jingleheimer-Schmidt describes God as an all powerful being Who gives salvation in reward for obedience. He believes that his good works are necessary to complete salvation. John and Jacob describe his theology as the "cruel Taskmaster". Jingleheimer-Schmidt is as outwardly religious as some monks, and more so than others. He is involved in 15 different ministries, and he is always found working for one of them. Because of this, however, he is stressed and burning out, as he does not see God as a Gracious Lifegiver, but as a Judge only.


These three men claim to be worshiping the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and the Apostles. They can even be found, in a lot of cases, in the same parish (or congregation). There are a few Jingleheimer-Schmidts in my own parish. John and Jacob are very frequent visitors, too.

However, If you were to put these descriptions of God on a paper side by side, nobody would say they were the same. They may intend to worship the same God, and God certainly has mercy on those who try to worship Him. But the God they individually view is different, because the very nature is different from the nature of other views of God.

I will postface this with the fact that this is not to say you do not worship God. It is saying that, in effect, many denominations worship the same God in the same way that Muslims do. We might call them the same, but it is intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

That all said, divorced from a connection to the Apostles, I don't think they would be able to come to the fullness of the Truth, unless God sent divine revelation again.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
As it is a hypothetical that would never happen because of the promise of Christ in Matthew, I don't know if the hypothetical is truly worth discussion.
Seeing how Churches/their memory physically has been wiped out in many places and others not even aware of the Gospel or its roots in the culture for ages (including places never reached with the Gospel at all/closed off), it's not really 100% hypothetical in actuality - the focus is simply on the dynamic of what would occur from a Global perspective - and on the issue, what is beyond question is that God would win when it comes to spreading His truth.

How that occurs is a different issue - the promise of Christ in Matthew 16 isn't something I'd see at any point as preventing the situation of a physical wipe-out of the Church since it is victorious in CHRIST ...who is beyond the reach/control of those in the world wishing to eradicate Him - He's outside of their jurisdiction and so is His ability to provide the memory of what His Church is about even when they try to wipe it out.
However, I hypothesize that those who came after would be utterly confused. Sola Scriptura would predict that they would come to the truth, but this means simply that Baptists would think they would come to Baptist theology, Methodists would think it would be Methodist Theology.
In a world where there was Sola Scriptura as the sole focus, I could definitely see that - although there'd be no guarantee that you'd end up with the same theological systems developed today to make Baptist culture or Methodist since both of those groups had political/social realities that helped shape them into where they are today (from the Radical Reformation with the Anabaptists/Baptists to the Great Awakening/Second Great Awakening ).

And as times change and the events surrounding people have altered, the catalysts for developments would be different as well - so who knows what other groups would come up.
However much we claim to worship the same God, with no offense intended, we do not. We can all claim to be Christians, but many of us, when asked to describe God, would describe God in a way differently than others here.

This is not to say that we do not WISH to serve and follow the same God. But we describe God differently, and, in effect, therefore follow different God and gods.

And this is true even for people within the boundaries of the same creed. We Orthodox, together, may be worshiping the same God in practice. But when we sin, we sometimes say to ourselves, "God didn't really mean it when He commanded us to pray, or fast or _____". By thus doing, we replace God with a more palatable fantasy deity.

This is intentional idolatry.

However, there is unintentional idolatry, which, more often than we would like to admit, is the reason for so many schisms that we have lost count (well...Someone probably counted, but it wasn't me).

Here is an example:

John describes God as an all-powerful being Who controls the destiny of every person. John's theology is described by Jacob and Jingleheimer-Schmidt, behind his back, as God the Micromanager. John says that there is literally nothing he can do, or should do, for salvation, but that God has already decided. As a result, rather than evangelize, John logically decides that he should stay at home, rationalizing that God wants him to do that or else he wouldn't do that.

Jacob Describes God as an all powerful being Who gives salvation to those who only ask. He also states that after you ask, nothing more is necessary for this salvation. John and Jingleheimer-Schmidt describe this theology as "The benevolent Contract-Writer". Because of this, Jacob is faithful to come to visitation and is active as a teacher in Sunday School. However, when not in the presence of church members, he continuously sins, never looking to defeat sin, because he needs not worry about that since his salvation is secure forever.

Jingleheimer-Schmidt describes God as an all powerful being Who gives salvation in reward for obedience. He believes that his good works are necessary to complete salvation. John and Jacob describe his theology as the "cruel Taskmaster". Jingleheimer-Schmidt is as outwardly religious as some monks, and more so than others. He is involved in 15 different ministries, and he is always found working for one of them. Because of this, however, he is stressed and burning out, as he does not see God as a Gracious Lifegiver, but as a Judge only.


These three men claim to be worshiping the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and the Apostles. They can even be found, in a lot of cases, in the same parish (or congregation). There are a few Jingleheimer-Schmidts in my own parish. John and Jacob are very frequent visitors, too.

However, If you were to put these descriptions of God on a paper side by side, nobody would say they were the same. They may intend to worship the same God, and God certainly has mercy on those who try to worship Him. But the God they individually view is different, because the very nature is different from the nature of other views of God.
If one was going to go with the understanding that having differing perspectives equates to having differing gods, one would logically have to apply that same concept to the history of the saints throughout Scripture - as those in the OT era didn't understand the name Jesus nor what he was doing in His time....and their practices differed from era to era based on what God had said.

But we see His grace on the issue - and our understanding alone is not the same as God's Mercy or Grace. One of the reasons why (no offense) I don't see where those in the Church ever have grace to go past the concept of "We know where God is - we don't know where He isn't" when it comes to salvation/his working in others. To do so would be an act of idolatry in/of itself since it is us exalting our own perspective as to who is or isn't in the kingdom based on the level of understanding they have - when God alone can see the hearts (which we cannot) and even others without ANY knowledge of the Kingdom of God as fully as another will make it before others having all of the answers INTELLECTUALLY and yet having hearts full of pride (I John 2:19-20) that we'd not know about.

The John - Jacob - Jingleheimer-Schmidt analogy is similar to the old parable of the Elephant with the three blind men all seeing something different with the body of a dead elephant, even though the person saying all three are off is not guaranteed that his vision is accurate

God never shows us ALL of the sins we commit daily or the sins we've all committed - as no one would be able to handle it......

And the same concept was shown throughout the OT when it came to GOD working with others who had MANY issues within their lives which were sin and yet the Lord only later confirmed it to future generations - for He understood men at certain times were never ready to handle seeing the fullness of all things he'd see as a sin or a problem and thus he worked with them where they were at. From Jacob/his two wives and the things that happened with them in favoritism tearing up his family ( ) to Judah (as it concerns the Tamar incident in Genesis 38 when sleeping with his daughter disguised as a prostitute ) to Levi/Simeon being cursed by their father for being violent to avenge the rape of their sister - a daughter of Leah whom Jacob SHOULD have defended and not given to people he wasn't meant to be in covenant with ( ) and yet still being blessed by the Lord later.

As said before elsewhere with the sins being covered dynamic, we can see this with the formation of the Torah. One does not need to look at the actions of what would be sin according to ADDITIONAL LAW through Moses, nor even our modern views of right and wrong. A reason for considering this is because there was discrepancy between the common views (interpretations) concerning Abraham and Sarah, and statements made about them in scripture itself. Without going into detail concerning various scripture and what brought me to this APPROACH to Genesis, I will sum it up instead. I believe Genesis is a book showing "faith", "The law of faith", as it operated in a certain time in history, the beginning. What this approach does is leaves off the normative ideas of cause and effect. Namely, things we perceive as sin, being the cause of "problems" later on. Such is the case with Sarai, Abraham, and Hagar. Many look at all that they perceive as "problems" being the result of not having faith. Yet many only see it as sin because they find polygamy repugnant. But nowhere is polygamy a sin in scripture. And nowhere does scripture say Sarai, or Abram acted in faithlessness. Scripture says they were faithful according to Hebrews 11.

The actions we clearly find "WRONG", Somehow are made acceptable if we do not acknowledge them as binding on Abraham etc. But, ALL ACCEPT JUST THAT WHEN ABRAHAM OFFERED ISAAC UP AS A HUMAN SACRIFICE. We do not fear, that somehow we today need to think of this as anything than what it was. DISTINCT for its own purpose, distinct for its own time, distinct for an idea. You certainly may disagree with this approach, and it may even be wrong. But so far I have not found it to be so. Instead of looking for "SIN" in Genesis, I look for faith in the actions of these individuals. For sin is not reckoned to them, and faith was. Which faith there was no law against. So what do I do with LYING, etc? The same thing you all do with HUMAN SACRIFICE. What was Gods purpose in it, in a DISTINCT TIME, WITH DISTINCT INDIVIDUALS, FOR A DISTINCT PURPOSE?


There are multiple other examples of this.... polygamy BEING one of them. As it concerns the subject of polygamy, its error for others trying to say others were "wrong" for condoning it. It was a cultural practice of the time, as it still is in some nations like West Africa for example. Even in the time of the Mosaic Law, it was not explicitly condemned except in the case of those who were kings...and even that had exceptions at times. God made rules for polygamy just as he did with divorce, as seen in Deuteronomy 21:14-16. ..and others with the Law still did so ( Judges 8:29-31 , 1 Samuel 1:1-3 , 1 Samuel 25:42-44 , 1 Samuel 27:2-4 , 1 Samuel 30:4-6, 2 Samuel 2:1-3, 2 Samuel 12:7-9 , 2 Samuel 19:4-6 , 1 Chronicles 4:4-6, 1 Chronicles 14:2-4 , 2 Chronicles 13:20-22 , 2 Chronicles 24:1-4, etc ). Though Jesus says that God's best/ideal was ONE spouse (Matthew 19:1-14) as Genesis 1, he still made clear God allowed it to occur.

Another example would be prostitution. Scripture RECORDS events that may not always be an indication of something being right. That'd be like one reading of what happened with Judah marrying the daughter of a Canaanite man in Genesis 38:1-2 was "God's Best" since God still blessed his inheritance/the fruit of his loins and tribe----never mind that there was already NUMEROUS instances where the Canaanites were not favored by the patriarchs and told to be AVOIDED in marriage (Genesis 24:1-14, Genesis 26:34, Genesis 28:1-3, Genesis 28:6-9, etc). For all of the times where God told His people to avoid mixture with the Canaanites, its interesting enough already how the very Sons of Judah were mixed in with that already....and the line continued with them in it (I Chronicles 2:3-

It is from here that the story of Judah/Tamar in Genesis 38 (Genesis 38:1-20) is relevant...as it concerns assuming that the methods Tamar used to gain a son through her father-in-law and God blessing the birth was all justified. Indeed, there's a law in Deuteronomy 25:5-10 about marrying a widow in the family...with the purpose intended to ensure that a childless widow would have a son who would recieve her late husband's inheritance and who, in turn, would care for her. Judah's sons were killed by the Lord for wickedness....and at one point, Judah would not give up his son to Tamar to have children. Because Judah's son (Tamar's husband) had no children, there was no family line through which the inheritance and the blessing of the covenant could continue. Judah lacked SUBSTANTIAL integrity when examining how he went to prostitutes....and then tried to discuss how his daughter was in "sin" for showing up pregnant. Its amazing seeing how Judah was so open about his relations with a prostitute, yet ready to execute his daughter-in-law for being one (Leviticus 21:9, Deuteronomy 22:21-22). Some of the dynamics are due to culture, of course. For in the land of Canaan, a woman's most important function was bearing children who would perpetuate the family line. To ensure that children belonged to the husband, the bride was expected to be a virgin and the wife was expected to have relations only with him. If a wife committed adultery, she could be executed. Some women, however, did not belong to families. They might be shrine prostitutes supported by offerings or common prostitutes supported by the men who used their servuces. Their children were nobody's heirs...and men who hired them adulterated nobdy bloodlines.

Judah saw no harm in hiring a prostitute for a night....but he was ready to execute Tamar because if she was pregnant as a result of prostitution, his grandchild would not be part of his family line. Sadly, the question of sexual immorality never entered Judah's mind as his concern was for keeping his inheritance in the family. ...

Ironically, it was TAMAR, not Judah, who acted to provide him with legal heirs. By seducing him, she acted more in the spirit of the law than he did when he refused to send his third son to her. The story in no way winks at prostitution since throughout scripture, prostitution is condemned as a serious sin. But it does show how even mistakes can be utilized of the Lord as apart of his plan. Incidently, Judah and TAMAR are listed as direct descendants of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1-6).

But all of that is to say that God is faithful working with others where they are at - we don't know His full works and it'd be dishonest to say otherwise as if we were on His level.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
These three men claim to be worshiping the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and the Apostles. They can even be found, in a lot of cases, in the same parish (or congregation). There are a few Jingleheimer-Schmidts in my own parish. John and Jacob are very frequent visitors, too.

However, If you were to put these descriptions of God on a paper side by side, nobody would say they were the same. They may intend to worship the same God, and God certainly has mercy on those who try to worship Him. But the God they individually view is different, because the very nature is different from the nature of other views of God.

I will postface this with the fact that this is not to say you do not worship God. It is saying that, in effect, many denominations worship the same God in the same way that Muslims do. We might call them the same, but it is intellectually dishonest to say otherwise..
.


As it concerns differing understandings, the very history of the Church bears this out significantly when it comes to the differing trajectories that occurred at various Councils....long before the Great Schism. From EO referencing Saints from OO - from St Ephraim's in his works to St. Anthony to St. Isaac the Syrian and several others - to discussing other battles Orthodox are having to deal with (be it in discussions such as Why we are divided till now ?!! or Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II or Your View on the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonians). There have been dialogues/meetings on many issues between Oriential and Eastern - as well as others involved - with there needing to be unification at many points and yet there's still a healthy recognition of where Unity is present (as one thing that is refreshing in Eastern" Christianity is that many things are not dogmatic and there's room for diverse views when considering Apostolic history). I do like the model currently being practiced in Europe -- joint social and charitable actions between OO and EO parishes.

Fr. Thomas Hopko did an excellent presentation on the matter entitled how there's The One True Church - not EO or OO exclusively.. The Church. And others a part of the Church we don't even know of and have no right to assume we can know fully who they are..

Fr Thomas Hopko - Part 2 - Faith and Church Unity - YouTube
Many have noted the ways the Assyrian Church of the East, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox all had issues that centered extensively around language (all Apostolic Churches) when it came to assuming others promoted a differing nature of Christ that was not God - yet many noted in those times (as well as today) how those differences led to greater expansion of the Gospel amazingly....and others able to work together today. Others do the same even in the Protestant world, even if it may be the case they have less information available than the Early Church did...

As another individual noted when it came to issue of noting the way we're all on journey and the understandings we have play a major impact:


Everyone who is seeking God is on a path, or road, to finding Him. When you drive down any given road there are things put in place to help you stay on the road and know how to get to your destination: pavement, lane dividers, signs, guard rails, lights, etc. The more of those things there are, the better chance you have of staying on the road. But the more of those things you take away, the more likely it is that you might lose your way, veer off the road, and not get to your destination.

What one loses by not being Orthodox is all these "helps" on the road. All that Christ has given the Church was given to her in order to help us stay on the right road, going in the right direction. The Scriptures, Councils, icons, incense, etc, are there in order to help us stay on the path of finding the True God and coming to know Him. The farther one goes from Orthodoxy, the more of these aids one loses, and the more likely it is that one will no longer be seeking the true Christ.

To be sure, just because one is Orthodox doesn't mean that one will stay on the road. I can ignore the signs and drive off the road thinking I know my way better than the Church. Also, many people who are not Orthodox are on a path to finding Christ, and just because someone doesn't have all the benefits that Christ has given to the Church doesn't mean that they will necessarily veer off the road or that they won't reach their destination. So not only can we not say that non-Orthodox will not be saved, but we also cannot say that all Orthodox will be saved. The signs and guardrails on the road do not guarantee a successful trip, nor does the lack thereof guarantee a disaster.
Gxg (G²);64344361 said:
As another noted best when it comes to the issue of crossing over and how that occurs (for a brief excerpt):
I am glad in that my former home church provided me with a warm Christ centered fellowship where I could study Scripture, and read up on theology and church history. I found it quite frustrating that many of my Evangelical friends were not able to understand the questions I had about the basis for Protestant theology. So when I became Orthodox, many were surprised and a little confused, but we remain friends. My experience has been more like a friendly border crossing. I picked up my belongings and one Sunday morning I crossed the border into the Orthodox Church. ...I feel sad for those whose transition has been marked by suspicion and judgment. It is my hope that open relations between Protestants and Orthodoxy will not be replaced by a Cold War atmosphere marked by barbed wires and aloof guards with grim stares. Barbed wires and restricted exit are signs of defensiveness and tyranny. An open and healthy society is marked by hospitality to strangers and mutual respect among its members. More preferable is a Glasnost in which Protestants can read up on the early church fathers and the Ecumenical Councils, and investigate the issues of icons, the Virgin Mary, and liturgical worship. In this period of openness curious Protestants should feel they have the freedom to visit the Orthodox worship services and come back with questions about what they saw. The best defense is not: “Those people are wrong!” but “Come and see!”

All Truth is God's Truth - and we may end up hurting believers more so than aiding in healing when not responding properly. Thankfully, there's a real awareness by many of how the Church has survived the very human messes within it -- and in this is evidence of God's majesty and promise as well as of human weakness. And as Warren quoted near the end when speaking of his son/remembering his son's struggles and the way the Lord worked through it.., "In God's Garden of Grace, even broken trees bear fruit...."

Fr. Ernesto Obregon from OrthoCuban did a wonderful job of addressing the issue in the following:

The Lord is in control of His Church and was long before we arrived - and I pray that the conversation that Rick was involved in helps others to see that more and more..

[/QUOTE]


Everyone is at a different place - and there are thankfully practical examples of others seeking to aid in that process of learning, regardless of how fast or slow people go.

That all said, divorced from a connection to the Apostles, I don't think they would be able to come to the fullness of the Truth, unless God sent divine revelation again

Seeing that the knowledge of the Apostles is within the Lord and never lost in Him, I don't see how they would not be able to come to fullness of Truth since God would be able to send Divine Revelation again somehow - or get Himself to others since the Apostles themselves were messengers of the Message made by the Lord and He had other disciples :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
God's good news is the word proclaimed, not his words in a book on a shelf.
Practically, what you are meaning is that God's Good news may be present within the Scriptures (even on the shelf) but not limited to it....and thus, His Word can be shared at any time - correct?


/URL][/CENTER]
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟22,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
Gxg (G²);65187601 said:
Seeing how Churches/their memory physically has been wiped out in many places and others not even aware of the Gospel or its roots in the culture for ages (including places never reached with the Gospel at all/closed off), it's not really 100% hypothetical in actuality - the focus is simply on the dynamic of what would occur from a Global perspective - and on the issue, what is beyond question is that God would win when it comes to spreading His truth.

How that occurs is a different issue - the promise of Christ in Matthew 16 isn't something I'd see at any point as preventing the situation of a physical wipe-out of the Church since it is victorious in CHRIST ...who is beyond the reach/control of those in the world wishing to eradicate Him - He's outside of their jurisdiction and so is His ability to provide the memory of what His Church is about even when they try to wipe it out.

The promise was that PEOPLE are the Church. If the Church were wiped from the face of the planet, then there would be none of the people of the Church. On earth, the Church would have been defeated in its primary purpose, which is to spread the gospel in obedience to the great commission.

Since Christ did not establish a disorganized disunited gaggle, but rather an organism of people in unity; we can assume that the Church He established continued in unity, existence, and organization under a single set of Dogma given by Christ once for all Saints (Jude 3, Romans 12:4-5, I Corinthians 12:12-26, Ephesians 4:1-6). We can assume this because we must assume that Christ meant His promise ONLY for the Church HE established, in concert with those that remain in Communion with the Church HE established, and not for a doctrinally divided, disorderly and bickering army of confused people.

In a world where there was Sola Scriptura as the sole focus, I could definitely see that - although there'd be no guarantee that you'd end up with the same theological systems developed today to make Baptist culture or Methodist since both of those groups had political/social realities that helped shape them into where they are today (from the Radical Reformation with the Anabaptists/Baptists to the Great Awakening/Second Great Awakening ).

And as times change and the events surrounding people have altered, the catalysts for developments would be different as well - so who knows what other groups would come up.

However, if you believe that you follow God in Spirit AND in Truth, then you would logically assume that the majority, or at least a large number, would come to a belief nearly identical to yours.

However, evidence has proven otherwise. Scripture alone is a belief subscribed to by thousands of denominations. They cannot all be worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, because that would mean they would be in perfect unity.

If one was going to go with the understanding that having differing perspectives equates to having differing gods, one would logically have to apply that same concept to the history of the saints throughout Scripture - as those in the OT era didn't understand the name Jesus nor what he was doing in His time....and their practices differed from era to era based on what God had said.

---Snipped to conserve space and to combat giant walls of text---

But all of that is to say that God is faithful working with others where they are at - we don't know His full works and it'd be dishonest to say otherwise as if we were on His level.

The problem with your analogy is that you assume the blind men are all looking at the same animal, which is not implied in today's culture without moral relativism. This is not a question of opinion. This is a question of DOGMA. One, and ONLY one view is right. The Truth is mutually exclusive in relation to dogma. Anything that contradicts the Truth is thereby false. God is not all views of salvation at once. He does one or the other. The views themselves are mutually exclusive.

One blind man feels a feathery wing, the other feels a compound eye, and yet another feels a tusk. Are they all giving a perception of the same animal?

Whether they know it or not is another question. However, one thing is true:

Apostolic Christian dogma is not up for debate, it is unchanging, and anything that contradicts the dogma of the Apostles is, by definition, heresy. Those who actively teach heresy, whilst knowing that they teach a lie, are heretics. Those who believe a heresy, but still seek after God without being aware of their heresy, are extended Grace by God according to His great riches in mercy, while heretics are judged according to His great holiness.
 
Upvote 0

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟22,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
Gxg (G²);65187605 said:
As it concerns differing understandings, the very history of the Church bears this out significantly when it comes to the differing trajectories that occurred at various Councils....long before the Great Schism. From EO referencing Saints from OO - from St Ephraim's in his works to St. Anthony to St. Isaac the Syrian and several others - to discussing other battles Orthodox are having to deal with (be it in discussions such as Why we are divided till now ?!! or Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II or Your View on the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonians). There have been dialogues/meetings on many issues between Oriential and Eastern - as well as others involved - with there needing to be unification at many points and yet there's still a healthy recognition of where Unity is present (as one thing that is refreshing in Eastern" Christianity is that many things are not dogmatic and there's room for diverse views when considering Apostolic history). I do like the model currently being practiced in Europe -- joint social and charitable actions between OO and EO parishes.

Fr. Thomas Hopko did an excellent presentation on the matter entitled how there's The One True Church - not EO or OO exclusively.. The Church. And others a part of the Church we don't even know of and have no right to assume we can know fully who they are..

Fr Thomas Hopko - Part 2 - Faith and Church Unity - YouTube
Many have noted the ways the Assyrian Church of the East, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox all had issues that centered extensively around language (all Apostolic Churches) when it came to assuming others promoted a differing nature of Christ that was not God - yet many noted in those times (as well as today) how those differences led to greater expansion of the Gospel amazingly....and others able to work together today. Others do the same even in the Protestant world, even if it may be the case they have less information available than the Early Church did...

As another individual noted when it came to issue of noting the way we're all on journey and the understandings we have play a major impact:




Everyone is at a different place - and there are thankfully practical examples of others seeking to aid in that process of learning, regardless of how fast or slow people go.



Seeing that the knowledge of the Apostles is within the Lord and never lost in Him, I don't see how they would not be able to come to fullness of Truth since God would be able to send Divine Revelation again somehow - or get Himself to others since the Apostles themselves were messengers of the Message made by the Lord and He had other disciples :)[/QUOTE]

There also has to be a realization that, on dogma, only one side is correct. There are not multiple true dogmas that contradict eachother.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The promise was that PEOPLE are the Church. If the Church were wiped from the face of the planet, then there would be none of the people of the Church.
Seeing that people exist already in Christ, the argument you made only works if people cease existing once they die - they don't - hence why the Early Church had no issue when believers were wiped out entirely in areas and churches were made elsewhere since the Church continued. If the Church were wiped physically from the Earth, you'd have to show God lost the Church from existence or that he was not able to start over with others on the Earth again - and that has happened before. No way around it if one truly believes in the Church - or the way God went into nations BEHIND them when the Gospel was never preached and others came to awareness of Christ via dreams/visions or being directed somehow to find others He'd send. We cannot limit God and simultaneously claim to trust in Him.

The view of the Church having to be present at ALL times on the Earth also goes counter to a host of views for the End Times when it comes to the saints/Remnant being wiped out but preserved while the Earth suffers judgement - they didn't get lost in the data banks of the universe.
Since Christ did not establish a disorganized disunited gaggle, but rather an organism of people in unity;
we can assume that the Church He established continued in unity, existence, and organization under a single set of Dogma given by Christ once for all Saints (Jude 3, Romans 12:4-5, I Corinthians 12:12-26, Ephesians 4:1-6)
Claiming an organism of people in unity does not show nor deal with where those people had disagreements and differing camps...Peter not being the same as Apollos nor he the same as Peter (yet united in the Gospel). We cannot come after the fact with a scenario and lay that over what actually happened since differing expression was not the same as being "disorganized" as many are prone to say today despite the very nature of the Apostles and the Early Jewish Church. Unity never

And at the end of the day, the Church was nowhere near tidy when it came to full agreement on all points - even though there were various points of Dogma. Defending the Faith was NEVER the same as showing where there was UNIFORMITY at all points - that would circular like saying that something being able to fly requires that it has wings - and therefore, all birds HAVE to look like planes because they have wings just as planes do. In the Early Church, there was a wide range of experience and ability. This is a concept present within the Early Church as well.. as can be seen when studying the lives of Saints in times of immense persecution prior to the era of Constantine - and then studying those in the Constanine era (including the Desert Fathers) over the following 3 centuries...and then seeing what occurred in the Byzantine Empire and even seeing what occured with other Saints since then.

Monastics like the Desert Fathers didn't seem to agree with the concept of violence or war..and to say war was ever "just" is something I have not fully seen yet or been convinced of ....interesting when considering the perspectives of others who were soldiers and yet believers from an Eastern/Byzantine background and having a different view on what it means to battle (like or St. Sergius or St. Mercurius' ).

The military saints/warrior saints, such as Saint Demetrius of Thessaloniki (more here) or Saint Mercurius and how he (as a soldier) chose to die for Christ. and later St. Alexander Nevsky in the Russian world...their lives differ radically from what occurred with Fr. Zosima and St. Mary of Egypt (her account being a touching story of a woman who finds God in the desert. . The Life of Saint Irene Chrysovalantou - amazing as it was - would not be the same in experience of walking out holiness as with what occurred in Perpetua, who lived during the time of a great persecution of Christianity at the turn of the third century in Carthage, Northern Africa (now Tunisia) and who truly encouraged the saints by her testimony, noted in "The Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicity", written before she was martyred in the time of Emperor Septimius Severus.

The life of St.Moses the Black - whom I have been inspired by when it comes to working with those from crime/gang culture and rough backgrounds (more here/here ) - would not be the same as the life of Justin Martyr or Tertulian who has discussed Christian loyalty to the Emperor, whoever he may be...something that many other Saints may've disagreed on when it came to politics/various expressions of how one's faith in the Kingdom was lived out.

They all had a myriad of experiences where faith in the Lord was displayed in differing ways - and differing concepts seemed to be in place more so at times than others. Again, it seems the lives of Saints who were soldiers were different from those Saints who were Monastics or being persecuted/not having some of the same decisions - even though certain principles were transcendent/applicable to all. Seeing that has helped me see the reality of how living out your walk in the Lord will never look exactly the same as others who came before you - and thus, you find out how to not compare yourself to others.

It'd be like trying to take the life of Noah (if you were Moses) and thinking that you were not doing a good enough job with what you were assigned to do in your era with leadership in the wilderness/setting God's people free from Egypt.....and then finding yourself building a boat and telling others "Well Noad did this when God commanded him and he found favor with God as being set apart!!"...despite the fact that both Noah and Moses were in relationship with the Lord and had unique experiences neither shared - and for Moses to look back at Noah/try to emulate all aspects of what he did would not be good, just like it'd not be good for Esther to look back on Daniel (as they were contemporaries in the Persian Empire during the Jewish Diaspora for 70yrs) and assume she was not good enough in her actions because she wasn't doing fully what Daniel did in the courts - even though her actions differed from him and were necessary for where she was. All of those saints are in the Book of Hebrews (Hebrews 11 ) - the GREAT Hall of Faith - and yet they're all a part of God's story of what sainthood looks like.

And thus, unless you wish to take the stance of KNOWING - 100% - who is or isn't saved based on your own understanding of what it means to be confused - it's never wise to assume past what Orthodox have long noted when pointing out "We know where God is - we don't know where He isn't." As it concerns Orthodox working with others outside of their world, this really isn't a new concept. In basic example, It's always interesting to see the perspectives of others who were Evangelical in theOrthodox Church and others who journeyed into the camp (despite where many Evangelicals may critique Orthodoxy).Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has spoken on the issue before - and Bradley Nassif said best...

on dogma, only one side is correct. There are not multiple true dogmas that contradict eachother.
And as said before, there needs to be the realization that with Dogma, we already have Apostolic communities that have noted the issue when it comes to the ways others forget that DOGMA being central isn't the same as showing all things in the history of the Church to be DOGMATIC - or showing that differing understandings of events that were debatable are the same as showing that one advocates differing dogma. I appreciate where the Church has focused on this and noted it often...especially within the practical.

We must give honor where it's due when it comes to others fighting for the Gospel - and in example, there are things the West did which the East never accomplished - and thus, God was clearly at work. I've been thankful that Eastern Christianity has done much in regards to the dynamic of reflecting what the West has lost when it comes to contemplative nature and inward change ...as well as mysticism - the many ways in which the Christian East retained many things that the West lost, some examples coming to mind being places such as the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (also known as the Indian Orthodox Church) when seeing how Indian Orthodox Christians relate to and evangelize in their predominantly Hindu society and their emphasis on spirituality via deep meditation/contemplation and discipline just as other Christian Monastics and Christian Mystics have done for centuries (more shared here, here, here, here, and here in regards to how Orthodox Christianity Speaks To Eastern Religions quite well) - in the spirit of what Jewish culture was originally about since it was also very outward/inward focused simultaneously




But others outside of that have also done great work on the matter. Dr. Vishal Mangalwadi is someone who really opened my eyes to many things when it comes to both the good things as well as the bad things that can be found within Eastern religions. Found out on him after being blessed to be able to go to a musuem entitled "Passages"(as Shared before )....and at that gathering, I came across a book by Dr. Vishal Mandalwadi entitled The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization .


Mandalwadi, who comes from a Hindu background and used to be one of the most requested/recognized Hindu scholars did an amazing job in making the argument that no one can ever truly know western culture without reading and understanding the Bible, even if they happen to disagree with what it says..


Outside of him, I've been thankful for others such as Ravi Zacharias who've spoken on the issue of Eastern Spirituality as well and how often there are more things that can be made of it which are not necessary..one of the best places being his book entitled Jesus Among Other Gods



Many times Eastern Christians have been a minority/persecuted in Eastern religions, despite where they've also found ways to thrive in their practices AND represent Christ/His Work in the Church - and that is something that can never be belittled or underestimated..






[
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟22,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
Gxg (G²);65187703 said:
Seeing that people exist already in Christ, the argument you made only works if people cease existing once they die - they don't - hence why the Early Church had no issue when believers were wiped out entirely in areas and churches were made elsewhere since the Church continued. If the Church were wiped physically from the Earth, you'd have to show God lost the Church from existence or that he was not able to start over with others on the Earth again - and that has happened before. No way around it if one truly believes in the Church - or the way God went into nations BEHIND them when the Gospel was never preached and others came to awareness of Christ via dreams/visions or being directed somehow to find others He'd send. We cannot limit God and simultaneously claim to trust in Him.

The view of the Church having to be present at ALL times on the Earth also goes counter to a host of views for the End Times when it comes to the saints/Remnant being wiped out but preserved while the Earth suffers judgement - they didn't get lost in the data banks of the universe

No, but the Church militant was just as much a recipient of the promise as the Church triumphant. If the Church Militant vanishes, then the promise did not apply to all of the Church.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
No, but the Church militant was just as much a recipient of the promise as the Church triumphant. If the Church Militant vanishes, then the promise did not apply to all of the Church.
That's again a false dilemma - for the Church Militant did not cease to exist because of where it was absent in the Earth for a time or on the margins. That all goes back to where the PRIMARY existence of the Church is based on - and it's not in this realm of Earth. It's in Christ/Eternity - one of the reasons the Church Militant (all of its saints since the Early Church ) didn't cease the moment it was eradicated entirely in major parts of the world throughout history - it was simply moved from one spot to another....and even in not being present whatsoever, Christ still had His Word stand since he would/could bring it back.

One has to assume that both the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant have to be operating in the same place at the SAME time in order to assume that not having one present in this Earth means that NONE of it can exist - yet that's no different than one claiming Christ can't exist because He left/isn't seen presently in the Earth as He was. The Church Triumphant is not dependent on US - and for an excellent review on the matter, I'd recommend Triumphalism and the Church Triumphant – On Behalf of All

As long as the Church (the BODY of CHRIST as the Head - I Corinthians 12) exists in the Lord, it can never truly be destroyed 100% .....nor does it cease being triumphant or militant since eternity doesn't work the same as the temporal realm. Times of great militancy in one era doesn't mean that the future has to have the same going on in another - one can have an era of militancy not existing while the previous era is still reverberating in Eternity and the era after one not happening sees the Church be militant again.


However, if you believe that you follow God in Spirit AND in Truth, then you would logically assume that the majority, or at least a large number, would come to a belief nearly identical to yours.

However, evidence has proven otherwise. Scripture alone is a belief subscribed to by thousands of denominations. They cannot all be worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, because that would mean they would be in perfect unity.
Nonetheless, as said before, one cannot show that others would become Baptists as they are today since the concept of Baptist culture developed in a specific time frame and culture - of course others, reading scripture alone, would gravitate toward groups with similar thoughts - but that's not the same as showing Baptists would develop again in the same manner as they look now or that other groups now would come up again.

And again, unity is not nor has it ever been a matter of all seeing eye-to-eye in THIS life (as that doesn't even happen with the local family unit and yet we don't say "You're not a family because dad sees different than mom and they think different than the next family") - we are not to play games with the Gospel or even daring to assume we can read the hearts/minds of others. Of course, if and when having a mindset that only those who are Orthodox can be saved/go to Heaven, that's another issue. The scriptures repeatedly note others worshipping God in Spirit (His Spirit) and in Truth (earnest/zealous and sincere) even though they were partial in how much they were aware of at the time and they grew in time....they didn't cease being called disciples because of it. They were simply at another level of awareness that others didn't have.
The problem with your analogy is that you assume the blind men are all looking at the same animal, which is not implied in today's culture without moral relativism.
Actually it is - seeing how much others note moral relativism on the sole basis that others all see the SAME thing but with different perspectives. That was never disproven by yourself - unless, of course, showing other moral relativists who do not feel that way.

Of course, there are limits to this. I don't care for nor subscribe to idea that we should enjoy all forms of expressions... analogous to relativists saying all truth is relative, that there is no absolute truth. For absolute truth being valued doesn't equate to having no disagreements in any area of life nor do disagreements equate to a matter of not valuing absolute truth. One cannot say "I believe in Absolute truth - but I don't like blue cars - therefore, my love for blue cars is a matter of absolute truth and you disagreeing shows you don't value absolute truth just as the relativist!!!" -

Not even all people in the history of the Hebrew scriptures spoke the same language in the same areas - as it concerns the Hellenistic Judaism and the history of cultural interactions in the Bible - but their use of linguistic variation didn't mean they didn't believe there were no moral absolutes. The Early Church understood this concept very much and it's something we need to remember today
This is not a question of opinion. This is a question of DOGMA. One, and ONLY one view is right. T
Incorrect - and this goes back to the issue of one not bringing things into the thread that were not present nor focused on in the discussion. The subject is one of opinion primarily - how would God bring things back in the absence of Scripture or Church History? Simple as that - when one wishes to advocate Dogma, they bring in another argument that other threads were made for.
The Truth is mutually exclusive in relation to dogma. Anything that contradicts the Truth is thereby false. God is not all views of salvation at once. He does one or the other. The views themselves are mutually exclusive.
Nonetheless, as said before, one cannot assume and has zero basis assuming (when even the Early Church had diverse views on the matter - EOs differing from OOs who continued on as the Church understood things early on...and them differing from Assyrian Church of the East, which differs from the Reformed view and many others). Assuming that there's one view doesn't equate to you/whatever part of the CHurch you agree to having the main view that is the only one present - it's A false dilemma in the same vein of "America: love it or leave it!" or assuming one side is either right or wrong when the reality is that both sides could be correct and there's always a third perspective where BOTH camps may miss something and another view is being not seen fully or others closer to it than another.

Anything that contradicts God's Truth -found in Christ and what He advocated - is what is false - and anything else we interpret may be a matter of who is or isn't closer to understanding intent. There's nothing saying God ever had differing views/expressions of the MYSTERY (i.e. something that'll NEVER be understood fully in this life :) )of salvation as an issue. And there's nothing giving you or I the right to begin what is essentially policing anyone we feel doesn't hold to our view of salvation alone.
One blind man feels a feathery wing, the other feels a compound eye, and yet another feels a tusk. Are they all giving a perception of the same animal?

Whether they know it or not is another question. However, one thing is true:

Apostolic Christian dogma is not up for debate, it is unchanging, and anything that contradicts the dogma of the Apostles is, by definition, heresy.
Those who actively teach heresy, whilst knowing that they teach a lie, are heretics. Those who believe a heresy, but still seek after God without being aware of their heresy, are extended Grace by God according to His great riches in mercy, while heretics are judged according to His great holiness.
By definition - most of what you advocated would also be up for debate since it also goes counter to some of the things the Apostles supported by definition when it came to expression of thought and areas it varied. But differences are not the same as DOGMA - again, that's the nature of a false choice since things which are dogma are not the same as saying there are no differences at any point. Apostolic Christian Dogma has differed at various points throughout history - but of course, whatever branch one finds themselves on will determine what they DO or DON'T choose to fall on their sword for....and often times, they end up believing they are fighting heresy when they end up promoting heresy in the process with division - specifically the kind laid out in III John with Diotrophes who made it a point to denounce and place out all others hospitable to the Apostles/place himself first and had no idea of it since his behavior went against the command of Christ to love one's neighbors and believers (John 13).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0