If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

Gregory Thompson

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Gxg (G²);65150067 said:
Why would you say that?

well if people no longer would hold the past against the church today . and all the culturalisms picked up from the societies we've been ambassadors to throughout the ages were purged .. people would get the straight gospel . the mystery straight up . in that each would be like a living sacrament of the mystery .. christ in you . the hope of glory .
 
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Gregory Thompson

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so yes . if the subject of this thread happens . there would be hope . trust to love . to hope beyond hope . there would be much more hope than any could imagine now . because with God . anything is possible . and nothing is impossible .

because in the darkest of nights . this is when light shines the brightest . and i know .. that he lives . and this will never change .
 
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Noxot

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the church should look new and different every single time someone becomes fully mature in God. that is why we are all unique individuals, yet not all of us are that free, which is why the church is what it is today.

the effect of wiping out the past would most likely result in very powerful spiritual revival and very powerful resistances. but it is already that way in the world. the structure of the world is that it has both hades and heaven in it. humans would have to develop new traditions. God would remind people of somethings and also use it as an opportunity to inject newer things into the stuff we beforehand confused as the truth but really just did not have the right capacity to fully grasp the depth of the meaning expressed by this or that saint. plus over time culture and language changes which to various degrees has impacts on the thoughts of the individual... though those who want to be free often desire to be free from everything so that they can get a pure and divine understanding not tainted by the world, inasmuch as that would be possible.

what is interesting is that we are now more connected in this world which would be different if say 1000 years ago everything was wiped clean. lots of stuff would happen, God would do as he pleases and humans would do what they do as well and the devil would still be a big jerk to everyone I suppose.

I think that christian mysticism would vastly increase in this world if we had to start from scratch. then lots of people would think they understood them, then lots of doctrines would be made out of it, by that time the manna would be full of worms but then God will send someone else and the pattern in the wilderness would repeat over and over ( like it does in this world ) until people are crucified with Christ and then they shall see the face of God. then wolves would creep in and kill off the little ones. then one day a bear will come by and decide it needs a rib and then the next thing you know, eve is again dead. but the soul shalt not forever be dead for the beast has it's end.

would humans keep on trying to preserve what they believe to be the truth? yes and they would often eat worms became of it, just the same others shall taste of it in heaven and live forever. the truth is that the church in this world is not static, because it exist in a temporal and changing reality. to objectify the church is to quench the spirit. maybe if everything got wiped out, it is because God wanted it to. and so we would all have to be very humble and depend on God for everything and not trust in anything but God alone. or you could just do that now if you wanted to be with God, or you could just find God with what other people say, that helps a lot of people too.

nothing would really change because things only change as much as the humans change and for great change requires a death of the monkey and a living of the life God breaths into us.

really it is a huge subject to be talking about because you are talking about reality and this crazy world and Gods responses to it.

but surly lots of people would simply recreate the gospels and the bible in general? or we would have large portions of the bible preserved, and traditions too. since no on can wipe our minds ( and with the grace of God our memories won't distort it in a bad way ). if there was anyone that could recall any quote of the scriptures they would surly write them down. if no one was left to memorize any scriptures and we started off as blank with nothing to go by we should look and see what kind of cultures develop in this world that are cutoff from everything. some seem better than others, I believe due to the different types of souls and where God decides it is best for them to be born at. they might have weird traditions though, like not wearing any clothes and males not being so attracted to womens breast... those are real life examples. it might be worth looking into that kind of stuff, but I suppose even they have traditions... the videos you posted were interesting. thanks.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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well if people no longer would hold the past against the church today . and all the culturalisms picked up from the societies we've been ambassadors to throughout the ages were purged .. people would get the straight gospel . the mystery straight up . .

in that each would be like a living sacrament of the mystery .. christ in you . the hope of glory
You'd still have, nonetheless, a CURRENT culture people were in who were being witnessed to - and thus, the Gospel filtered through that lens just as it was with past culturalisms (which weren't bad in/of themselves since that was even present in the time of Christ - how Samaritans interacted with Christ differed from how Gentiles or Jews did so).

Some cultural dynamics that may be a hinderance to seeing Jesus as He was and yet well entrenched in our world may be a problem - and wiped out so others could get things more (like the mindset that Jesus automatically was European looking due to centuries of damage from colonialism in the world and devaluing other ethnic groups).
 
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Gxg (G²)

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so yes . if the subject of this thread happens . there would be hope . trust to love . to hope beyond hope . there would be much more hope than any could imagine now . because with God . anything is possible . and nothing is impossible .

because in the darkest of nights . this is when light shines the brightest . and i know .. that he lives . and this will never change .
:thumbsup:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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the church should look new and different every single time someone becomes fully mature in God. that is why we are all unique individuals, yet not all of us are that free, which is why the church is what it is today.
Every one has a unique thumb print - showing God's care for all of us as people made in His Image. And the same applies when it comes for us gathering together - thankful God has given His people gifts in every circumstance that have helped the Church thrive and continue in every era. Someone like a George Washington Carver isn't the same as a Corrie Ten Boom - but both were used dramatically to impact the Body of Christ and the world for the Lord....

the effect of wiping out the past would most likely result in very powerful spiritual revival and very powerful resistances. but it is already that way in the world. the structure of the world is that it has both hades and heaven in it.
Funny you should mention that - as MLK noted when it came to the Kingdom of God and the many ways Heaven/Hell are present realities experienced in this life as well as the life to come, "only a 'dry as dust' religion prompts a minister to extol the glories of Heaven while ignoring the social conditions that cause men an earthly hell."

In every era, you'd have others resisting the system and those a part of it - and as Jesus noted in John 16, there can be no escaping the fact that those who are chosen out of the world are others whom the world will hate because they do not belong to it. And if they hated Christ, they will also end up hating those who seek Him.

I John 3 notes that:

1 John 3:13

More on Love and Hatred

11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.


In a world where that scripture was never known, you'd still have that reality played out just as it did when Scripture was NOT existent and yet Cain still managed to murder His brother in Genesis 4 (recorded after the fact). And thus, it would perhaps take some time to develop where things became codified again - but the Lord would reveal the concept of loving neighbors/serving Christ in righteousness (as Abel did faithfully - Hebrews 11) and faith. How resistance to that would occur would be interesting....
humans would have to develop new traditions. God would remind people of somethings and also use it as an opportunity to inject newer things into the stuff we beforehand confused as the truth but really just did not have the right capacity to fully grasp the depth of the meaning expressed by this or that saint.
I agree - there are some things that can only be understood in Eternity because it would take that long to get it - and thus, the Lord only shows us so much of who He is in THIS lifetime (even though that's a lot). Thus, I'd not be surprised if there were other things He revealed to us in time which we'd be processing in that time/era rather than the one we're in now since the times would perhaps alter the way we think and what we need to know.

Some say this is the dynamic of progressive revelation and the Lord gradually teaching us things in time...


plus over time culture and language changes which to various degrees has impacts on the thoughts of the individual... though those who want to be free often desire to be free from everything so that they can get a pure and divine understanding not tainted by the world, inasmuch as that would be possible.
That makes sense....and when considering how culture and language shift, it is significant to see how things are understood..

what is interesting is that we are now more connected in this world which would be different if say 1000 years ago everything was wiped clean. lots of stuff would happen, God would do as he pleases and humans would do what they do as well and the devil would still be a big jerk to everyone I suppose.
With the DIGITAL age we live in, things have changed a lot..

It has connected people a lot more and the world has definitely become so much smaller....whereas before, it wasn't the case.
I think that christian mysticism would vastly increase in this world if we had to start from scratch. then lots of people would think they understood them, then lots of doctrines would be made out of it, by that time the manna would be full of worms but then God will send someone else and the pattern in the wilderness would repeat over and over ( like it does in this world ) until people are crucified with Christ and then they shall see the face of God. then wolves would creep in and kill off the little ones. then one day a bear will come by and decide it needs a rib and then the next thing you know, eve is again dead. but the soul shalt not forever be dead for the beast has it's end.
I'm curious as to why you'd advocate that Christian Mysticism would be what would vastly increase - as opposed to other ideologies.

would humans keep on trying to preserve what they believe to be the truth? yes and they would often eat worms became of it, just the same others shall taste of it in heaven and live forever. the truth is that the church in this world is not static, because it exist in a temporal and changing reality. to objectify the church is to quench the spirit. maybe if everything got wiped out, it is because God wanted it to. and so we would all have to be very humble and depend on God for everything and not trust in anything but God alone. or you could just do that now if you wanted to be with God, or you could just find God with what other people say, that helps a lot of people too.
How people act in times of survival is interesting to witness...

nothing would really change because things only change as much as the humans change and for great change requires a death of the monkey and a living of the life God breaths into us.

really it is a huge subject to be talking about because you are talking about reality and this crazy world and Gods responses to it.
How much one feels God is involved in the world - and whether it's primarily based on His work in the Church or a part from it - makes a difference. Some take a more Deistic approach to things whereas others have a perspective of the Lord that is Theistic on a personal level .....both sides reading scripture and seeing manifestations of both.

And others feeling like the Lord Jesus came into the world to show men how to live, their mindset is that Christ does not need to be extensively involved in answering prayers since his focus was on mankind being the answer to their prayers in how they choose to live in light of His example. Others in the Christian world who note how Christ's death was beyond a matter of securing forgiveness AND looking to Him to answer prayers - as the book by N.T Wright is very excellent on the matter... called Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church.


Christ showed in his death and life how man was meant to live...and in regard to the Incarnation/Heaven on Earth, this is what N.T Wright said in interview

N.T. Wright on Heaven & Rapture Theology - YouTube N.T. Wright on Heaven & Rapture Theology - YouTube ).


"N.T. Wright - Death, Resurrection, and Afterlife"( N.T. Wright - Death, Resurrection, and Afterlife - YouTube )

"Rethinking Life After Death (NT Wright) ( Rethinking Life After Death (NT Wright) - YouTube )

N.T. Wright Acts Part 3: Salvation - YouTube

NT Wright Acts part 1: Kingdom - YouTube

Evil and the Justice of God - NT Wright - YouTube



but surly lots of people would simply recreate the gospels and the bible in general? or we would have large portions of the bible preserved, and traditions too.
If all memory of the Gospel was wiped out as well as the Bible, that would mean that preservation would not be present and adds to the dynamic of seeing how the Lord would get the message across again.....in light of what he has done before when it was not present.
since no on can wipe our minds ( and with the grace of God our memories won't distort it in a bad way ).
What I am noting from the OP is that all believers who have memory would be wiped out as well - and thus, you would have unbelievers who were aware of how others used to live...but they'd not have the same memories as the believers. So in that scenario, how would things go..
if there was anyone that could recall any quote of the scriptures they would surly write them down. if no one was left to memorize any scriptures and we started off as blank with nothing to go by we should look and see what kind of cultures develop in this world that are cutoff from everything. some seem better than others, I believe due to the different types of souls and where God decides it is best for them to be born at. they might have weird traditions though, like not wearing any clothes and males not being so attracted to womens breast... those are real life examples. it might be worth looking into that kind of stuff, but I suppose even they have traditions...
Very good points - and on the issue, it makes you wonder - if the Gospel was developed in a culture that was NON-European and having different values, would it look radically different than what has been associated with the Gospel historically when it was European culture that ended up bringing the Gospel to the World and yet adding much onto it.

the videos you posted were interesting. thanks.
Not a problem and glad they blessed you :)
 
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BobRyan

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Gxg (G²);65137377 said:
If all the history books in the world were burned up - and all documentation of the Church councils or the stories of the saints were wiped out, some have felt that the church itself would not be strong since scripture alone without understanding how it was interpreted and what the Church did is a big problem.

In example - in our times, if you had a small parish that had a bishop with a little bit of scripture was teaching....how would those people in that one tiny parish, following that ONE faithful bishop, know that their bishop was the faithful one and all the others weren't if they were isolated in their knowledge? Obviously, they would look at Scripture ...


And if the Bibles and Church history was erased/destroyed but somehow managed to survive, do you feel that what would emerge afterward would look radically different than what we see now with all the different camps that have arisen (i.e. Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etc.) or would groups formulate again that'd be exactly the same to what happened before?


Imagine if you will that all the churches today were Southern Baptist. No other kind of church.

Then someone in New Jersey stood up and said "no wait a minute!! I am the Pope, when I speak ex-cathedra I am infallible. And there is a Purgatory, and you have to earn indulgences and... I can confect the body of Christ at the time my congregation celebrates the Lord's Supper".

Do you "really think" that church would even get off the ground??

Seriously??

As for the scenario you post above.

Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the APOSTLE Paul were so"

Gal 1:6-11 "Though WE (Apostles) or an ANGEL from heaven should preach to you a different Gospel other that you have - let them be accursed".


Mark 7:6-13 "In vain do they worship Me teaching for doctrine the traditions of men...13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down;".

Looks like the sola scriptura model is not as untrustworthy as some have supposed.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Imagine if you will that all the churches today were Southern Baptist. No other kind of church.

Then someone it New Jersey stood up and said "no wait a minute!! I am the Pope, when I speak ex-cathedra I am infallible. And there is a Purgatory, and you have to earn indulgences and... I can confect the body of Christ at the time my congregation celebrates the Lord's Supper".
A
Do you "really think" that church would even get off the ground??

Seriously??
.
Honestly ^_^

The scenario you brought up isn't one that is that far-fetched in light of how the Early Church was very much in the same dynamic - it was Catholic in reflection and during the Protestant Reformation everything changed with the ways differing groups rose up in opposition to much of what used to be....and of course, in movements that followed it from the Second Great Awakening and Restorationist era (i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc.), the same dynamic occurred. It only takes the right circumstances, time and opportunity for things to get off the ground .....

So yes, SERIOUSLY (if dealing with what has happened historically when how the Church looked uniformly altered drastically - starting with small leaders who went into different directions and ended up gathering immense followings after themselves....the reason why there were so many heresies to begin with that the Church had to fight against)...

As for the scenario you post above.

Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the APOSTLE Paul were so"

Gal 1:6-11 "Though WE (Apostles) or an ANGEL from heaven should preach to you a different Gospel other that you have - let them be accursed".


Mark 7:6-13 "In vain do they worship Me teaching for doctrine the traditions of men...13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down;".

Looks like the sola scriptura model is not as untrustworthy as some have supposed
Sola Scriptura was never the main model the believers had - seeing that the Scriptures they studied also had a tradition that they were interpreted in (hence, why the Jewish people didn't do as other Gentiles did in reading the Torah and Tanak scrolls and making up any interpretation that claimed Jews were hated by God as others did when not understanding context). for in the Protestant world, the scripture is focused on (often as an end in/of itself) while in the Orthodox world, scripture is seen through the lens of Tradition. Some of this was discussed more in-depth as seen here from previous discussion:
The establishment of SS requires that someone/s state:
"I CANNOT be wrong! What I say, God says! Sola Scriptura is the sole authoritative norming praxis !"

But, in fact, as God has not commanded SS as the sole norming praxis, those who establish SS as the sole norming praxis place themselves above God !
Gxg (G²);58757852 said:
There was actually an excellent book on the issue that I greatly appreciated, entitled Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism-- edited by Brad Nassif, James J. Stamoolis. Bradley Nassif has always done an excellent job advocating for Orthodoxy when it comes to clarifying what Sola Scriptura is meant to portray in connection with Church Tradition..as the two don't HAVE to be seperate. ...

Also, there was actually an excellent book I was able to read on the issue not too long ago. It was a book that my brother loaned to me recently that has been a huge blessing, called "Common Ground"


51RB1VME5XL._SS500_.jpg
On chapters from the book, one can go here to see it in full. It is recommended on many Orthodox sites...and it has some very key information (especially for me and my family) as it concerns those coming out of Fundamentalism.

I thought it was a very brilliant presentation on the subject of the concept of "Sola Scriptura" and how the term itself has often been misrepresented to mean that all one must do is go to the scriptures/any interpretation is valid as long as its done via looking at the scriptures....and I appreciated how he clarified the ways that both those within Orthodoxy and the Protestant Movement get misrepresented in the process. I appreciated his making a distinction on what Sola Scriptura meant and how it was never meant to mean that only Scripture alone was what was authorativite since many of the scriptures themselves were viewed according to TRADITION, as it concerns what the applications always were historically.

Jordan Bajis noted in “Common Ground” how the first generation of western reformers did not view the doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the same way its defenders do today. As another Orthodox individual noted best on the issue:
Am re-reading “Common Ground” by Jordan Bajis for about the tenth time. This workbook is an excellent primer on Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism. This is the best easiest to read and well documented book with this purpose that I have found yet.

Luther and Calvin, he shows, were well aware that to KNOW the Scriptures alone was not sufficient. For them, Sola Scriptura was “not a call to see the Bible as the authority of the Church, but a call FOR THE CHURCH TO ONCE AGAIN INTERPRET THE SCRIPTURES IN ACCORD WITH THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH (emphasis mine).


The first generation Reformers were not against true Tradition, they sought to recover it (from within the corrupt context of Rome, and other factors of the time – RAS) by uncovering the Biblical message the fathers had faithfully defended.” As a response to Rome (not to the Orthodox – they were separated by geography and Islam and not involved in the conflict, although they fully would concur that Rome had departed from the genuine faith) the Reformers “held up the Bible and the doctrine of sola scriptura as a SHIELD.

Reformers of LATER generations reshaped this shield into a SWORD against Rome by proclaiming the Bible as the sole authority of the Church.” It is clear that Zwingli, and the Anabaptists took this path to the extreme by rejecting all church history and history of theology, and we see the fruit of confusion, division (and in some cases plain nonsense) that this developed doctrine since the western reformation has in modern western Christendom today.


The Orthodox would have no problem with the first generation of reformers view of the scriptures (especially in battling against Rome’s claims), although Prima Scriptura would probably be a more accurate phrase to clear up the confusion. Bajis does a wonderful job of showing why the doctrine of Sola Scriptura as held by protestants today is WEAK. He demonstrates, from an Orthodox viewpoint 10 reasons why. I summarize them here, quoting and adding my comments.
1. A “perfect “ Bible does not ensure correct interpretation. A sharp and perfectly designed scalpel does not insure a successful operation. [Examples amongst hundreds : The Lord’s supper, views on war, salvation, baptism and its significance, church administration, Bishops, end times etc etc etc. Many essentials of the faith]


2. Christian doctrine is misunderstood as something solely rational. Under the influence of Melanchthon and Protestant Scholasticism, faith became an intellectual concept. This may have been useful against battling Rome, but was an approach foreign both to the mind of the early church and the Bible itself.


3. A view of scripture which denies its human element ignores the church’s role in compiling the books of the Bible. The scriptures were not viewed as “being dropped from heaven” (like the Koran or Book of Mormon) but born and confirmed within a believing community.


4. A Literal interpretation of the bible can replace the Holy Spirit. An atheist can uncover the literal sense of Biblical passage, but to rightfully interpret the Scriptures one must submit to the guidance of the Spirit (John 16:13 ff). Neither Luther nor Calvin ever confused the written texts of the Bible with “the Word of God’ which is Christ Himself. [See for example, Luke 18:34 ; John 14:26 ; John 15:26 ; Matthew 22:29 ]

5. An anti-intellectual interpretation equates naiveté with spirituality. The educated vs. the uneducated battle


6. Private interpretations of Scripture compromise the Bible through “individual traditions.” Private judgment (which characterizes Protestantism) results in scripture losing its authority. [The Jehovah Witnesses and other cults (and heretics such as the Arians and Pelagians in the early church for examples) assert the Bible to be the sole authority behind their teachings.]


7. “The Bible Alone” was not sufficient to defend the Christian Faith in the past. Councils were called to defend the faith and ended using terms which appear nowhere in the Bible. If the Christians of the time of Nicea, for example, could have defended Christ’s divinity by “bible alone”, the Council of Nicea (325 AD) and the creed which it authored would never have been needed in the first place !!! [The Nicean Creed (and for the Orthodox all Seven Ecumenical Councils) is viewed as authoritative by even some Protestants !!! An example of the Holy Spirit leading the CHURCH into all truth. (John 16:13 ; 1 Timothy 3:15 for example)]


8. The Bible alone approach has failed to bring agreement in doctrine. Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and many Anabaptists (the major players influencing the Reformation) believed that if all followed the teachings of scripture, it would be natural for everyone to be in agreement with each other. [We are not talking about differences in minor teachings, but major differences in the ESSENTIALS of the faith. Hence, a Protestant Church opposite from each other on every street corner (I come from Grand Rapids, MI).]

9. A Bible Alone philosophy denies the legitimate place of Divine Tradition. For example, the Westminster Confession states the doctrine of the Trinity (II, 3) and the person of Christ (VIII, 2) in language almost VERBATIM from the Athanasian Creed and the Chalcedonian Creed but WITH NO ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF ITS SOURCE leaving the uninstructed reader to suppose it was the work of the Westminster Divines. [And why is the Westminster Confession (Heidelberg Catechism, Canons of Dort etc) AUTHORITATIVE? Demonstrates the folly of “Bible Alone.”]

10. A Bible Alone Philosophy ignores the Holy Spirit’s Ministry in the Church for 1500 years. This is the biggy for me, and the height of Protestant arrogance in my opinion. “Yes, each Christian has the Holy Spirit, but His indwelling in the individual was never meant to substitute for His presence in the universal Church.”

My conclusion – Sola Scriptura in its modern form can actually lead Christians away from the Truth. Prima Scriptura in the context of that which “has been believed by everyone, everywhere, and at all times” is what is needed as a rule in the modern Western Church today. When Evangelicalism fully collapses soon, may Christians in the West (as myself has already discovered) rediscover the ageless faith of the ancient Church – an Orthodox Faith.



As said before to you in #92 , Scripture was never written in a vaccum nor did it come down from Heaven out of nowhere - but suffice to say, what you shared was not the issue of the OP. For the OP noted what would occur in the ABSENCE of scripture - Church History and the Gospel ....we already know and see in the word where others searched the Scriptures to test what occurred.

But the OP is focused on what would occur in light of the Scriptures/Gospel not being present and how would things re-develop again if there was no memory of it.
 
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well if people no longer would hold the past against the church today . and all the culturalisms picked up from the societies we've been ambassadors to throughout the ages were purged .. people would get the straight gospel . the mystery straight up . in that each would be like a living sacrament of the mystery .. christ in you . the hope of glory .
One must wonder which culturalisms would not be good to maintain...
 
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Gxg (G²);65151609 said:
I'm curious as to why you'd advocate that Christian Mysticism would be what would vastly increase - as opposed to other ideologies.

I think this is a root of Christianity. it is what I would consider one of the main aspects of the life of Jesus and those who are considered saints and prophets. the relationship that Jesus had with his Father and thus with all humans was a very different thing than what so many of us have lived out due to our sinful nature which kills the truth and turns it into something less than what it is. I think if most thoughts of Christianity were wiped out God would send a powerful influx of those types of people that were the prophets and those saints that seems to have a rather close connection and spiritual authority with God and Christ. i don't believe christian mysticism has ever been fully realized yet in the church to large degrees and that it's time has been coming for a while now, with various saintly "first fruits" throughout history. it is one component that might fully burn out all religions, not just Christianity as it is today. since all religions have to various degrees mystics and sometimes they have more in common with christian mysticism than all the various Christian denominations do with each other. but it would be a kind of spiritual surge of growth that would transcend everything and unify everything and clear up many contradicting statements that are created by a lack of spiritual knowledge. "spiritual knowledge" as opposed to the "rationalistic knowledge" that so many religious and non-religious people have in this day and age which often tends to compare component parts of something and attempt to build a foundation of truth out of proofs. "spiritual knowledge" is something more of direct experience, that is what mysticism is, direct relationship with God that transcends human understanding. mysticism at it's core is simple, it has to do with the 2 greatest commandments. I see the rationalistic mindset of logical positivism and that kind of stuff as forcing a spiritual revival due to the hunger in humanity ( the God void in the heart ) desiring something more profound than what human experience and interaction alone can accomplish. but the logical way of thinking is not an enemy, it is one side of the coin, as is seen in the way the human brain is, it has a more logical side and a more creative side, i am speaking about both sides coming to a more full capacity. the Logos of God is the reasoning of God and thus even humanities logical aspect has yet to fully grow and develop.

Gxg (G²);65151609 said:
How people act in times of survival is interesting to witness...

Gxg (G²);65151609 said:
Very good points - and on the issue, it makes you wonder - if the Gospel was developed in a culture that was NON-European and having different values, would it look radically different than what has been associated with the Gospel historically when it was European culture that ended up bringing the Gospel to the World and yet adding much onto it.

it certainly can have a huge impact on how things play out. not many of us in many of the more developed countries are really trying to survive according to the past. so that is already a shift in view for how some of us understand things. it comes with new darkness and light just as everything can. our vices are a bit different, things such as convince are a high priority in some places of the world. in the developed world there are all kinds of things that we are exposed to that people from 2000 years ago were not exposed to in the same exact way. with everything so connected it might mean more slavery to certain people in the world. the size of the mass followings of certain people has a wider audience nowadays. also of note, the world has a ton more people than it did in the past. billions and billions of people.... this is just another factor in the equation of what would happen in the now world as opposed to how Christianity developed in the past. since everything is more connected it means more and more cultures can be mixed in with each other or they might alter faster or completely go away faster.
 
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BobRyan

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As for the scenario you post above.

Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the APOSTLE Paul were so"

Gal 1:6-11 "Though WE (Apostles) or an ANGEL from heaven should preach to you a different Gospel other that you have - let them be accursed".


Mark 7:6-13 "In vain do they worship Me teaching for doctrine the traditions of men...13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down;".

Looks like the sola scriptura model is not as untrustworthy as some have supposed
=========================================



Sola Scriptura was never the main model the believers had - seeing that the Scriptures they studied also had a tradition that they were interpreted in (hence, why the Jewish people didn't do as other Gentiles did in reading the Torah and Tanak scrolls and making up any interpretation that claimed Jews were hated by God as others did when not understanding context).

Gxg (G²);65153654 said:
Sola Scriptura was never the main model the believers had - seeing that the Scriptures they studied also had a tradition that they were interpreted in (hence, why the Jewish people didn't do as other Gentiles did in reading the Torah and Tanak scrolls and making up any interpretation that claimed Jews were hated by God as others did when not understanding context). for in the Protestant world, the scripture is focused on (often as an end in/of itself) while in the Orthodox world, scripture is seen through the lens of Tradition. .

The detail you are missing is that in Acts 17:11 these are not Christians interpreting Paul via the OT using the circular method of Paul's own lens for interpretation to test Paul.

"They" (non Christians - not at all pre-biased in favor of Paul) "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so" (not having already accepted Paul but to test Paul).

This is the worst case scenario for the RCC because it is NON-Christian tradition being used to validate/test/discard-or-accept first century Apostolic teaching!..

There is no way to escape this.

And if the method is to be applauded even for non-Christians - how much more for actual Christians!

And of course in your OP that is precisely the method that you left with given that all of history and all of tradition is "wiped out" in your opening context.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Imagine if you will that all the churches today were Southern Baptist. No other kind of church.

Then someone it New Jersey stood up and said "no wait a minute!! I am the Pope, when I speak ex-cathedra I am infallible. And there is a Purgatory, and you have to earn indulgences and... I can confect the body of Christ at the time my congregation celebrates the Lord's Supper".

Do you "really think" that church would even get off the ground??

Seriously??

.

Note that "Protestants" were "ALL Catholic" and it is the Catholic scholars/priests themselves that start the "Protesting reformation" because they had access to actual scripture and were able to detect the problem that had crept in over the centuries since the days of the NT writers.

Thus the current list of objections to the RCC that many Protestants will admit to ...

=======================


Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. Mariolatry.
2. Confecting the Body and blood of Christ.
3. Indulgences.
4. Purgatory.
5. Prayers to the dead.
6. Claims to infallibility
7. Persecution of dissenters
8. Bible burning
9. Reliance on tradition rather than testing it against the Bible as the final rule of all faith and doctrine. Sola Scriptura
10. Protestants appeal to Christ alone as the source of salvation so then not the RCC.
11 Protestants appeal to Faith alone not magic sacraments - enables the lost to accept the Gospel, enter into the New Covenant, receive the graces found in the Gospel, be born again, forgiven of sins etc.




And for many Protestants today -

1. The use of images in worship is objected to .
2. Claiming that the New Covenant is confined to the Catholic Mass
3. Priests with magic powers to confect Christ and forgive sins (powers that are retained supposedly even if the priest is defrocked).
4. Authority of the Papacy -- denied by many/most Protestants.

And I have one or two others I suppose.

And of course I would not want to forget that bit about the Protestant opposition to the supposedly infallible ecumenical council of Lateran IV calling for "extermination" of heretics and outlining civil penalties for any governing body that fails to comply.

Even EWTN's Dr. William Carroll admitted that men such as Billy Graham would be burned alive if they were to preach in the dark ages - what they preached in the 20th century.

=== And of course all of it objected to not only by Protestants today - but it would be objectionable in the scenario where everyone was Southern Baptist and then "tomorrow" the "Catholic Church of New Jersey" suddenly appeared claiming all the items listed above.

It simply would not fly.


Gxg (G²);65153654 said:
Honestly ^_^

The scenario you brought up isn't one that is that far-fetched in light of how the Early Church was very much in the same dynamic - it was Catholic in reflection and during the Protestant Reformation everything changed with the ways differing groups rose up in opposition to much of what used to be....and of course, in movements that followed it from the Second Great Awakening and Restorationist era (i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc.), the same dynamic occurred. It only takes the right circumstances, time and opportunity for things to get off the ground .....

So yes, SERIOUSLY (if dealing with what has happened historically when how the Church looked uniformly altered drastically - starting with small leaders who went into different directions and ended up gathering immense followings after themselves....the reason why there were so many heresies to begin with that the Church had to fight against)...

In your OP I thought you were proposing that today - we suddenly had a wiping out of all history and tradition that preceded us - so that we only had the 66 books of scripture to go on.

I then start with a group (The SBC) that is known for a "66 books and nothing more" policy and propose a scenario where the "Pope of New Jersey" suddenly appears with all the same claims as the RCC makes today.

I think we would all agree that such a group simply would not get off the ground today - given the context of your OP.

Your argument is that in fact historically the RCC did evolve over time and come into being given a sola-scriptura starting point in the first century. But that was due to a unique situation in Rome regarding the bishop of Rome and the fact that Rome was the head of the entire Roman Empire - and that Emperor Constantine converts his entire Army to the religion of the Bishop of Rome who would later be handed even more control when the capital was moved to Constantinople.

The church-state scenario the flooded the Christian church brought about an influx of pagan practices into the Christian church that even the RC historian Thomas Bokenkotter could not ignore.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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The detail you are missing is that in Acts 17:11 these are not Christians interpreting Paul via the OT using the circular method of Paul's own lens for interpretation to test Paul.


"They" (non Christians - not at all pre-biased in favor of Paul) "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so" (not having already accepted Paul but to test Paul).
b
The detail you attempted to bring up is without historical merit - one cannot argue via assertion since the reality of where the Bereans were at is that Greek culture NEVER kept scriptures from the Jews on hand for the sake of study - that was not relevant to Greek culture to begin with. In Athens, the Torah/Scrolls were found at the synagogues - and in CONTEXT, Paul came to a Jewish synagogue in Acts 17:10-11 when it notes plainly "When they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue - these Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the Scriptures every day...."

And as they were Jews in the synagogue, a basic would be seeing the scriptures from how the synagogue interpreted them - and verifying, which St. Paul could handle since He himself was a Jew and understood how Jewish people thought. when it came to Liturgy, Rabbinical customs/argumentation and Jewish Logic amongst other things.

And the Scriptures were NOT the Cannon of the Bible that we have today. They were the Tanak (i.e. Torah, Historical writings, Prophets) and the Psalms - the very things Jesus used to verify His own identity. They had a Jewish understanding one needed to have to get what was said since plenty outside of the Jewish culture made up anything and everything in the name of "The texts says!!" rather than addressing how it was understood.

There were never any Jews who did not accept what Paul said on the basis of it not lining up with what was said previous. St. Paul himself noted the same thing in Acts 24:12-16 when pointing out nothing of what he did was inconsistent with the Law or what was written in the Prophets - just as the Lord Jesus did so in Luke 24:44-48 when going through everything written in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. And to be clear, . Of course, there's nothing wrong with the Oral traditions in and of themselves - as discussed more elsewhere in A Few Facts Why the Talmud (oral law) is a hoax and #34 or #35

And the Early Church understood this concept very well when it came to the issue of consistency with the culture of the Hebrews while also connecting it to the Gentile world - The Pre-Constantinian Origins of the Church Year is a good place to go for review, as well as the thread entitled Happy Hanukkah
This is the worst case scenario for the RCC because it is NON-Christian tradition being used to validate/test/discard-or-accept first century Apostolic teaching!..
Therre really isn't a real argument claiming via begging the question that RCC is Non-Christian (seeing how extensively the Early Church was indeed Catholic in practice and many of those practices were directly in line with First Century Apostolic Traching from a Jewish perspective....one of the reasons why many Jews went to the Catholic Church and continue to do so).

And the validation that has been done via testing is repeatedly done for the majority of things on the basis of whether it goes with what Early Jewish believers in history did - of course, there's the Gentile perspective as well since the Church wasn't called to look Jewish in all things and there's the reality of freedom to advocate for things that didn't have their basis solely in the Christian world - just as we use the internet or cars or other innovations even though Christians didn't make them.

But it'd be spurious to claim it's non-Christian stances that validate RCC. People have said the same with SDA when it comes to the context it developed in and how much it itself may be disconnected from the Early Church in practices ...but with Catholicism, there's a lot more basis. The The Constantine Creed had many in the Jewish world advocating for it and still does today....and there was a reason why other holidays were developed for the sake of outreach to the Gentile world.


This is something I've seen with many Jews who were reached out to by camps in Apostolic Christianity and noted the ways that they saw more things connected with Judaism (more shared here in Jews in the Family: A Conversation with Father Paul Schenck | The Groom's Family and here in A Brief History of Jewish Conversion | The Groom's Family). Someone like Father Bernstein (one of the founder leaders of Jews for Jesus and a Jew who grew up in Orthodox Judaism) comes to mind when seeing how he saw connection to priesthood, the Temple Worship and Christ in liturgical camps such as Orthodoxy:

The Jewish Roots of Orthodox Christian Worship - Fr. A.J. Bernstein - YouTube
Fr James Bernstein on: Processions in Orthodox Worship - YouTube

The connections happen in Orthodoxy as well as other places when seeing the formats and practices based on the Temple System and many other things - more on this discussed in places such as Eastern “Blind Spot” or “Cross-Pollination”? | Orthocath ....or Protestantism’s Eastern Blind Spot | Orthocath and http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/afdocumentaries/wheaton_and_the_fathers.

For Evangelicals tend to have a “blind spot” when it comes to Church history, especially with regards to the Eastern Church since it's the case that many Evangelicals think Church history jumps from the book of Acts to Martin Luther in 1517 AD. And “blind spot” often becomes real apparent when Evangelicals discuss historical theology and only mention Catholic writers from the West. We see this when traditional Evangelical Protestant apologetics countering the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist most likely will focus on medieval Catholic writers and the Catholic council that defined Transubstantiation - and yet Byzantine, Syrian, and Coptic Christian writers from the Early Church on the Real Presence are routinely ignored since the average Evangelical believes that the idea of Real Presence dates from the thirteenth century and was one of those “Roman inventions.”.....but belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was a universal belief of the Ancient Church and is lost on most Evangelicals, often because many of them don’t even know about the Eastern Christian Churches. It's bad enough many Evangelicals confuse Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, let alone Coptic, Syrian or Armenian Orthodoxy.

There is no way to escape this.

And if the method is to be applauded even for non-Christians - how much more for actual Christians!

And of course in your OP that is precisely the method that you left with given that all of history and all of tradition is "wiped out" in your opening context.

in Christ,

Bo
Of course, as said before - if truly believing God is all-powerful and able to do all things - the OP focus is what cannot be escaped when actually dealing with the history behind CHURCHES that were eradicated and areas where the Gospel was shut out and God still found ways to get into the areas that no one could foresee..

The OP issue you're avoiding is addressing what would happen in light of history where all of history was left out and yet God could get around it - and how that would look like. By your own logic, if advocating for SDA, your history would ALSO be wiped out in the OP scenario (including the aspects of it that were never based solely in Christian thought or origins) - and what was asked to be focused on was how that would come about again.....or if it would given that there's no scripture, no churches and no Biblical history.

Not really that complicated of a question...
 
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Gibs

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Ro 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1 Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1 Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
 
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Gibs

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Gxg (G2)

My posts are only to contend with a point you have brought up. You are a very prolific writer and you bring up many points of contention.

If I start a thread on this site I assure you that you are welcome to question and to contend with whatever you like. I like that, it helps to get to the solid truth and if it gets off track I don't care as the OP of it I will bring it back on when a point is settled.

May you be blessed of His Truth.

Bro. Gibs

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Ro 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1 Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1 Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
And again, as said before if one persists in being disrespectful by not addressing the OP and refusing derail, it is reported. None of the scriptures have anything to do with the issue - nor is the thread a place to even attempt advocacy for "All denominations are wrong!!!Diversity bad" logic via misuing the scriptures you attempted which don't even support the point ..

Again, if continuing with more of the same on posts, it'll keep getting reported. You were already warned on making discussion elsewhere if you could not respect it here - as it doesn't take much for one to make another thread in response to a topic rather than trying to make the thread they were interested in about what they wish - that was not done nor was it necessary to do as you've done. Thus, it's reported.

Gxg (G2)

My posts are only to contend with a point you have brought up. You are a very prolific writer and you bring up many points of contention.
.
Gibbs..

It is inconsequential talking on points you wanted to deal with when you were already disrespectful in avoiding the OP/posting on whatever you wanted to post on as if the thread is for that - this is not the place for that whatsoever if one can neither stay on topic as others have or remain focused.


If I start a thread on this site I assure you that you are welcome to question and to contend with whatever you like. I like that, it helps to get to the solid truth and if it gets off track I don't care as the OP of it I will bring it back on when a point is settled.

May you be blessed of His Truth.
Bro. Gibs

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world
Doesn't matter, Gibbs - as this is not the thread for off-topic commentary nor a time/opportunity to be opinionated in trying to slip in "Well, if it was my thread..." - it isn't and it's rude trying to bring up discussion on that, hence why it's reported as with other things since one cannot restrain themselves properly. It's no different than one walking into the house of another with muddy shoes/not leaving them at the door - and then when asked "Please take the shoes off" one retorts "Well, if it was my house, I'd not have to take my shoes off..." - for none of the commentary is warranted when one already crossed boundaries and needs to be respectful.


#55 I] and #59 (where you already said "Well, I will leave" ) were places I already noted one can leave some of the dynamics for elsewhere - and either was respected or going to be ignored/up to report. Thus, it was reported

Move on ...
 
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Yes I posted those verses as I see no Jewish roots in Christianity. Jesus Christ only is the Rock and because my soul is rooted to the eternal Rock and as Christians we all should be. I am not a Judeo Christian.

Beginning with Christ a Jew is one who is one inwardly and not outwardly.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
 
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Note that "Protestants" were "ALL Catholic" and it is the Catholic scholars/priests themselves that start the "Protesting reformation" because they had access to actual scripture and were able to detect the problem that had crept in over the centuries since the days of the NT writers.
None of that has any relevance to the discussion of the OP issue since we're not talking on the background of the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic scholars (like Desmisus Erasmus) who were who protested against it - although it has been discussed elsewhere if wanting to pursue that train of thought, as seen in " The Renaissance vs Reformatiom: Which One Advanced Mankind Further?.

And with the Bible not given to the masses line, that really is not historically accurate - nor is it complete when others forget that there were many who went against others going counter to the Church by assuming all practices within it were not on point - the Bible line being one of the basics. As another noted best:

People have a problem of always equating what we have now to another period of time. Thus when they hear that Bibles were chained in the churches, they just assume that the Church just withheld those Bibles and prevented the people from getting their hands on them, because today Bibles are so easy to get. That hasn't always been the case.

I mean I got probably 10 to 15 Bibles at my house, could you imagine how much they would be worth 1000 years ago? If they were written in Latin of course.
The lie that I am referring to is the one propagated by many ignorant Protestants that the Church withheld the Scriptures from the masses. That is a lie that has no foundation in history.

Where the Bibles chained in many churches? Yes. Why? Was it to keep the peasant from having one? No. It was keeping someone from stealing them, because a Bible during that time was a small fortune. On average it took a monk about 20 years to copy the Bible. 20 years! Not a few hours, not a few days, not a few weeks, not even a few years. Bibles were in short supply and it wasn't possible for individuals to have their own, unless they spent the time copying the words of the Bible for themselves.

Instead of giving the people their own individual Bibles, the Church did the next best thing. She read it to them, in the Mass and in the Divine Office each day. She illustrated it to them through the Sacred Art found in the Churches. She sang it to them through the Sacred Music offered.

The people then probably knew the Bible better than the people today, even though everyone has access to the Bible. Because the people then knew just how precious the Word of God is.


Thus the current list of objections to the RCC that many Protestants will admit to ...

=======================


Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. Mariolatry.
2. Confecting the Body and blood of Christ.
3. Indulgences.
4. Purgatory.
5. Prayers to the dead.
6. Claims to infallibility
7. Persecution of dissenters
8. Bible burning
9. Reliance on tradition rather than testing it against the Bible as the final rule of all faith and doctrine. Sola Scriptura
10. Protestants appeal to Christ alone as the source of salvation so then not the RCC.
11 Protestants appeal to Faith alone not magic sacraments - enables the lost to accept the Gospel, enter into the New Covenant, receive the graces found in the Gospel, be born again, forgiven of sins etc.​


On most of those things, Protestants have already done - we had Bible burnings from Protestant camps against other camps - the Anabaptists are one example of this with the Radical Reformation as well as what occurred with the Anglican/Church of England when they persecuted Catholics and many fled to the New World (as well as burning of Churches - we see that plainly with the history of churches in the U.S - especially the South when it came to the experiences of Blacks who were terrorized or denied the Bible as well....more shared on that elsewhere on the history of Black Christians and how they often experienced many of the same things Protestans accuse Catholics of doing with Inquisitionsl). Protestants also have denied the concept of Faith Alone - as well as ignored where Catholics never advocated something such as "Faith alone" -

As another noted best:

The standard Protestant view is monergism with respect to justification: God alone renders us just or righteous in his sight, without our co-operation. But most Protestants would add that sanctification is a co-operative enterprise in which our will and work have a necessary role to play, working together with the grace of God. So most Protestants are monergists about justification but synergists about sanctification. And since justification by faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation, most Protestants are also monergists about salvation.​

More was discussed elsewhere on the issue, as seen here - as well as the historical backgroundof what the Jews did and why in Early Judaism praying for the dead was done by believers...as seen in Why did early Christians pray for the dead?.....and on the ways others misrepresent respect/high reverence for Mary as being about worshipping her (even though that has NEVER been advocated any more than one saying "Abraham is the Father of our faith" means they worship Abraham), one can go to places such as Hail Mary = God centered prayer. and Why was it important that Mary was Virgin before she had Christ?.

On Mary, What concerns me is when my fellow Protestants take their concerns over Marian devotion too far. Take John Knox for example. He tells the story, possibly referring to himself, of a Catholic Priest telling a man (Knox?) to kiss a picture of Mary. Instead the person grabbed the picture, cast it into the sea, and stated, "Let our Lady now save herself: she is light enough: let her learn to swim." And I ask myself, is this what Jesus had in mind when he, from the cross, commanded his disciple to care for his mother?

In the end, have there been times and places where Marian devotion turned into Mary worship? I'm sure that there have been. But this is neither what others believe as Protestants who respects Mary, nor what the Catholic or Orthodox have ever officially taught. Certainly there have been people throughout history who took it too far, but that is true of every doctrine, not just Mary. Mary deserves our respect and love. And As the angel said, "Hail Mary! Full of Grace the Lord is with thee! Blessed art though amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!"


But with everything else in the list you gave, Protestants have all done as well - thus, it is a bit of a false scenario presented and not histroricaly accurate.

And on the issue of Tradition, the same dynamic cannot be escaped when it comes to seeing what developed first - Scripture or the Tradition that determined whether or not it was to be included as Scripture.



And for many Protestants today -

1. The use of images in worship is objected to .
2. Claiming that the New Covenant is confined to the Catholic Mass
3. Priests with magic powers to confect Christ and forgive sins (powers that are retained supposedly even if the priest is defrocked).
4. Authority of the Papacy -- denied by many/most Protestants.

And I have one or two others I suppose.
Again, it should be noted that the focus of the OP isn't really on any of the things you brought up. I'll address them in this post only - but that's as far as it goes since it doesn't address the OP topic..

=== And of course all of it objected to not only by Protestants today - but it would be objectionable in the scenario where everyone was Southern Baptist and then "tomorrow" the "Catholic Church of New Jersey" suddenly appeared claiming all the items listed above.

It simply would not fly.
None of that deals with the issue, of course, of how that scenario already played out during the Protestant Reformation with many other groups claiming to "reform" the Church even though others within the Catholic Church who saw abuses realized those splinter groups gaining influence by virtue of the fact that they had an audience - and thus, the scene changed. Moreover, seeing how the groups have continually evolved to our era, it's incomplete saying things wouldn't develop in light of what has already happened in history.

There's no objective way of showing that a world where all churches were Southern Baptist wouldn't have it where another doing things opposite of that could rise up and gain influence.

But even in disagreeing with that, as I already noted, the topic is off course since what was noted was what would occur in a world WITHOUT ANY CHURCHES - your scenario was off to begin with since it started with Baptists being the ones in existence.....not starting with no churches being in existence and going from there based on how things have played out in Church history.



In your OP I thought you were proposing that today - we suddenly had a wiping out of all history and tradition that preceded us - so that we only had the 66 books of scripture to go on.
I then start with a group (The SBC) that is known for a "66 books and nothing more" policy and propose a scenario where the "Pope of New Jersey" suddenly appears with all the same claims as the RCC makes today.
You missed the purpose of the OP - and as it concerns the OP, I spelled that out directly....what was focused on was having ALL SCRIPTURE, all TRADITION/Churches WIPED OUT....and seeing how the Lord would start things again or if He would. Moreover, I never was focused on the 66 books alone.

I think we would all agree that such a group simply would not get off the ground today - given the context of your OP.
Not really - seeing that it was never noted that groups diverging greatly from what already was present before have gotten off the group before repeatedly - and that's something even Luther and others noted in their era as well as other groups reforming the Church from within and yet being amazed at how quickly other groups began.

The same goes for churches in areas where there's a dominant practice - but another one starts with a different view and changes in time. We see this dynamic even with what has occurred within the Pentecostal world..and as said before elsewhere:

Gxg (G²);64660248 said:
I think one has to first examine what the whole of scripture says before claiming that theology is shaped according to the needs of communities - for this is something that Christ and the Early Church/Prophets spoke on when it came to the issue of theological forms of ministry varying based on the age and the time.

And sometimes, due to differences (As my friend noted best), it was deemed "bad theology."


Miracles didn't always happen in every age - as the time would've required focus on economic concerns (As with the Book of Amos) .....while at other times fire came from heaven as with the Prophets like Elijah - and other times, the dead were raised or God answered dreams. With the 3rd world, many often assume there's no careful or sober/peer-reviewed scholarship going on because others go past boundaries they are comfortable with - yet the reality of the matter is that the boundaries they placed up were ones others BEFORE them felt were past what others needed to be in check.

Something being different doesn't always mean that it needs to be placed in check...and sometimes, it is the reach of others trying to control it that can be what really needs to be checked.

GG..
Your argument is that in fact historically the RCC did evolve over time and come into being given a sola-scriptura starting point in the first century
. But that was due to a unique situation in Rome regarding the bishop of Rome and the fact that Rome was the head of the entire Roman Empire - and that Emperor Constantine converts his entire Army to the religion of the Bishop of Rome who would later be handed even more control when the capital was moved to Constantinople.

The church-state scenario the flooded the Christian church brought about an influx of pagan practices into the Christian church that even the RC historian Thomas Bokenkotter could not ignore.

in Christ,

Bob
Nowhere close to the argument being advocated - and that is your own interjection since I never mentioned focusing on the RCC. You did that - and I already noted what the focus of the OP was about.

As said before, the central question was the following:
Gxg (G²);65137377 said:
Do you feel that the Church could ever be rebooted so to speak or in danger of being wiped out - only for God to start over fresh with it? Or is that something that shouldn't even be a concern?

And if the Bibles and Church history was erased/destroyed but somehow managed to survive, do you feel that what would emerge afterward would look radically different than what we see now with all the different camps that have arisen (i.e. Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etc.) or would groups formulate again that'd be exactly the same to what happened before?


One needs to go back and read the rest of the ORIGINAL post topic if continuing in discussion - and again, for the sake of clarification, one can go to #8 #10 - and Kylissacaught exactly where I was coming from, as seen in #14
 
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Gxg (G2)

Yes I posted those verses as I see no Jewish roots in Christianity. Jesus Christ only is the Rock and because my soul is rooted to the eternal Rock and as Christians we all should be. I am not a Judeo Christian.

Beginning with Christ a Jew is one who is one inwardly and not outwardly.

1 Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Once again, off-topic and avoiding dealing with the OP. '


We we go to Members Complaint Forum next if it continues with disrespecting the OP - and it is already inconsistent with the text of Scripture as well as the practices of the Apostles when it came to the culture scripture was written in (i.e. idioms, metaphors, historical references) being in the Jewish world - that is necessary for understanding the full background of what Christ said repeatedly and this was noted often in the Early Church. Moreover, it is Anti-Semitic to claim that the beginnings of Christianity itself are not Jewish - seeing that the early followers were just that.

Dr. Michael Brown (one of the foremost scholars within Messianic Jewish culture) has spoken in-depth on the issue as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjUf9FLODiY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJtqzT4HsF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO_hZBaPQQw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P45BHDRA7pU

Paul already noted directly in Romans 11-15 the concept of what it meant to be Jewish - his notes in Romans 2 were on the issue of God looking at the heart when it came to others who didn't have the Torah still being evaluated...it was never a concept saying that being Jewish had no relevance when it came to understanding scripture - but a matter of saying all would be judged, even those without the Law/Torah (as noted in Romans 7). considering Paul in Romans 1:18-28 on the issue of all men being without excuse because God's Law is written already on their very hearts - with evidence of him also seen in creaton. And this is also what Paul notes in Romans 2 with the Gentiles being a law unto themselves even without the knowledge of God'S Torah/God judging them based on what they already know.
Romans 1:18-23
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


Romans 2:12-14
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,”[c] as it is written.

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Paul very specifically teaches that the primary issue is not whether one is Jewish or Gentile (circumcised or uncircumcised), but what matters is “the keeping of the commandments of God”

And when Paul stated that, he actually went further in expressing to the Gentiles he worked with how what was expected was simple walking in love.
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Romans 13:7-9, Romans 13 and Galatians 6:1-3 all echo the same theme...

Yeshua echoed the SAME thoughts in Luke 10:25-39 when it came to the parable of the Good Samaritan, with the subject of whether or not love was shown as the ultimate focus.


...On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”


“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

He answered: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” (Luke 10:25-37)




Those priding themselves on trying to "observe law" in the above story not only did not help the half-dead man, but when they saw him they actually passed by on the other side of the road. Considering their positions as Priest and Levite, they considered the man who lay dying on the side of the road to be unclean, as not only did they not want to help (touch) him, they went to the other side of the road to avoid any possible contact with him. They were more concerned for their own “clean-ness” than they were for the very life of the man bleeding, obviously needing aid, lying at the side of the road. Who did Jesus say to imitate? The consummate Law Keepers, a Priest and a Levite? No. He instructed the expert in the law to imitate the unclean man, a Samaritan.


Why was IT so significant for Jesus to speak in parables regarding the usage of Samaritans? Or why the lawyer in the story couldn't even say "Samaritan" when ASKED who in the story did good? For much of what went down indeed dealt with the issues of ethnicity/cultural heritages---and the Jews forgetting what it was they were called to be to others, as well as looking down upon others when they had no right to do so, Deuteronomy 9:4-6/ Deuteronomy 9 Romans 3:28-30 / Romans 3. Cultural barriers (and for that matter, the old sin of prejudice/racism) wasn't a new issue that just came up in the 1700's-1960's (during the time of Slavery to the CIVIL Rights time)....and if we were to be honest for a moment, regarding the issue, I think that we are often moreso like that Lawyer and the others in that parable than we’d want to believe. We treat the TOPIC as an topic for discussion like the Lawyer did with the wounded man, or we act like the priest and treat the man as a topic to avoid or an object of curiousity and go about our buisness for the “Lord” like the Levite……rarely acting like the Samaratin and acting out of love---and still seeing others as too "dirty" to deal with. This is seen across the wall in the Body of Christ when certain groups we avoid quickly...


TheGoodSamaritanStoryRevisited.gif

…For it’s much more easier to talk about the Lord within the realm of our OWN CULTURES than outside of it....and forgetting that we're all connected


responsibility.jpg




On the parable of the GOOD Samaritan issue, the lawyer raised his question---and in response,Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

If we were to be honest for a moment, regarding the AIDS issue, I think that we are often moreso like that Lawyer and the others in that parable than we’d want to believe. We treat the AIDS Topic as an topic for discussion like the Lawyer did with the wounded man, or we act like the priest and treat the man as a topic to avoid or an object of curiousity and go about our buisness for the “Lord” like the Levite……rarely acting like the Samaratin and acting out of love. And like the Lawyer/Levite and Priest in the story, we all tend to act first out of our prejudices and build our theology from there. For example, there was a deep hatred that existed between the Jews and the Samaritans.....and Jesus had to address that squarely..



It’s a perfect example of the change and the freedom in behavior Jesus was ushering into the world with the New Covenant forged in His blood. No longer was one to be bound by the restrictions of the Law, which, in the hands of humans could not be possibly be met by any stretch anyway, because Jesus met the requirements of the Law on our behalf (Romans 7:4-6) .

Under the New Covenant, the Law of Christ, the believer is now free to love their neighbor without restriction. We are able to bend down into the dirt of life and minister to those in need and love them with the love that comes from the very Holy Spirit of God.

Why? Because we are cleansed with the Blood of Christ, not merely covered by the blood of animals. Our state of redemption and “clean-ness” is permanent and irrevocable – incorruptable – enabling us to obey both parts of the commandments (instructions) of Jesus – Love God, Love others, whatever the circumstance.

1John 5:2–3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His
commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
__________________
Amen..

Thankully, John clarified what those commandments were in the New Covenant, as John sought to sum them up into the simple reality of LOVING your neighbor ( 1 John 4:20-21 , 1 John 3:22-24, )

2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:5-7/ 2 John 1

 
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Gxg (G²)

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it certainly can have a huge impact on how things play out. not many of us in many of the more developed countries are really trying to survive according to the past. so that is already a shift in view for how some of us understand things. it comes with new darkness and light just as everything can.
Are you of the mind we're trying to survive via the present in more developed countries?

I do think the way survival has gone does make a difference on things...

If thinking the past of no relevance, there'd be no shock for others in churches being wiped out and rediscovering what already happened since it wouldn't be valued if coming across it again...just as it is with others disregarding history books..
our vices are a bit different, things such as convince are a high priority in some places of the world. in the developed world there are all kinds of things that we are exposed to that people from 2000 years ago were not exposed to in the same exact way. with everything so connected it might mean more slavery to certain people in the world. the size of the mass followings of certain people has a wider audience nowadays. also of note, the world has a ton more people than it did in the past. billions and billions of people.... this is just another factor in the equation of what would happen in the now world as opposed to how Christianity developed in the past.
Hadn't consider the aspect of the population size - in addition to the mass developments in technology - shaping things further. That is a very big deal - and although we have modern day slavery occurring, I'm not certain if slavery would happen again in the same exact way ...


If things got reintroduced, one has to wonder if the Bible and Church history would be seen in the sense of entertainment/myth rather than what it was valued as in the past when it seemed the world had a higher view of God than it does today in the age of Science and Rationalism.
since everything is more connected it means more and more cultures can be mixed in with each other or they might alter faster or completely go away faster.
__________________
Good point..
 
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