If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

sculleywr

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The Church Militant, by definition, is those of us struggling together on earth, in perfect Communion TOGETHER with Christ. If there are none on earth, then the Church militant has disappeared, and all have been brought into the Church triumphant. The Church Militant will have been removed from the earth, meaning it is either the end, or Christ lied.

Is it narrow-minded? Yes.

But if there is no Church Militant, then the visible church has been prevailed over, because there is then no place for the Truth to be taught in its fullness, as it was intended. Were that possible, I would not be a Christian, because, honestly, that's plain depressing.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The Church Militant, by definition, is those of us struggling together on earth, in perfect Communion TOGETHER with Christ. If there are none on earth, then the Church militant has disappeared, and all have been brought into the Church triumphant. The Church Militant will have been removed from the earth, meaning it is either the end, or Christ lied.

Is it narrow-minded? Yes.

But if there is no Church Militant, then the visible church has been prevailed over, because there is then no place for the Truth to be taught in its fullness, as it was intended. Were that possible, I would not be a Christian, because, honestly, that's plain depressing.
Eschatology makes a world of difference, IMHO, when it comes to the issue of how one understands the Church Militant and struggle with Christ. For there are many schools of thought that see parallel dynamics when it comes to the Church Triumphant being HERE and still YET to come when it comes to the future intersecting with the past.....what has already occurred from God's perspective playing out in our time frame.

And for others, it's really not a matter of Christ lied since there were always various ways in which Christ was interpreted when it came to the way the Church Militant would be present. Many tend to have a view of Church Militant from a Futurist perspective - that all things must end at some point for the Church before Christ comes back - while others have a Partial Preterist perspective, that many things have already occurred and were not a clear-cut matter of "All saints disappear from the Earth - then Christ comes back." Some of this was discussed more in-depth elsewhere in #49

T.L. Frazier (an Orthodox Christian) made a solid case on the issue for not having a futurist perspective fully in one of the books he made - it's not partial-preterism per se so much as it's Amillennialism, which tends to carry partial-preterist tones in my opinion. It was a very compelling read, to be sure. It covers a broader spectrum of eschatological belief.... AND critiques (more accurately points out the lunacy of) some of the futurist nonsense that's been peddled the past half century, such as Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins and then the second half of the book discusses the historic Christian views in contrast to the futurist views. For more, one can investigate the following:

From where I've come from, it used to be a matter of believing the Church HAD to be on the Earth in order for God to reach the World - and then, once it left (per the End Times mindset I had), then the world would crumble. But in studying more on the issue and seeing partial preterism, I've come to understand how much it was never limited to that view alone when it comes to the Church Militant - and how much we end up making literal stances from things that were never clear cut from Jesus. A Church Militant not being present doesn't mean the Visible Church was prevailed over anymore than a Church hidden by God from persecution/having to remain underground and thus unknown to many above ground has been prevailed over because others may not know about it - in both the case of a Church hidden from others to preserve it and a Church wiped out but still present in Christ, the Lord is triumphant....and God's timing is everything.

If all churches were wiped out, I don't see how it would not be the case that Christ would simply not start over in sharing His revelation with another if it was HIS will that the Church continue on for others since he wishes none to perish and takes His time - it's not as if His hands are tied to the point where if all churches were instantly wiped out, his hand is forced and we end up doing things similar to what's advocated in much of Zionist thought when it comes to assuming we can speed up the hand of the Lord - a mindset many have had to combat for years:


https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/h...lse&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0</DIV>

Who's to say that the Lord could not easily replenish places where Churches were wiped out and share truth again in its fullness? Is anything too hard for the Lord? He's not trapped by man - and if it weren't possible for Him to do just that, I'd not find it wise to follow Him since he is controlled more by His creation than being in Control of all scenarios.... it's depressing to me to live in a world where God isn't capable of doing anything.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Well, any answer on my part is purely speculation.
Of course...
I don't know that I would say that the Twelve would be "replaced", but ...
I do think - since those roles were given to the Apostles - that there'd be some way the Lord would ensure others would learn of them and their history so as to know what occurred. Be it a vision or a download of some sort from the Lord - it's not impossible for such to occur anymore than it was for Enoch to be taken up to be with the Lord and allowed to witness what he did prior to his being taken up.
What we do know is that we benefit from each other, we grow, we learn from each other. Those the are spiritually mature naturally guide those who are new in the faith.

I suspect that new "Fathers" of a sort would be raised up. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by previous models of development beyond that?
Previous models of development was meant to imply the same way the Fathers developed up in the times they lived in (as well as how disciples developed) and seeing how they would format if it occurred again...

Nonetheless, indeed, I do think new "Fathers" of a sort would also arise to set the stage for the times they lived in..
One thing that really bears considering, when I look at what the saint endured during early church history, and how fast the church grew, and also the situation with the persecuted church in China, and yet their growth ... it seems to me to be unavoidable to realize that the blood of martyrs and the pressures of persecution grow the REAL church.

(Mega churches in the US might not be the best example.)
Persecution does help to spread things - and in theory, a total persecution/seemingly successful attempt to eradicate things would only lead to a STRONGER come-back when the Church was seen on the scene again.

Take the example of someone leading a rebellion to topple a corrupt regime - and then have them be given a fatal blow when their successful/organized resistance was wiped out. In doing so, it's more than possible that the person would be risen to legendary status amongst the downtrodden who still believed in them even though there were no more physical records/data of them existing and this would allow them to spark a planet-wide popular uprising, by making them into the "hero" who the dominant persecuting camp had failed to kill.

In the same way, it'd make sense (if it seemed the entire Church was wiped out on the Earth) for God to be glorified in it even when there was a lack of physical supplies documenting the history of the Church/its background or scripture - people being shown revelation from God on what actually happened....and bringing things back again would have a stronger resurgence in the belief system than before (especially when having access to the memory of how the Church was wiped off the planet before physically - but not eternally) - and they'd be more determined to spread the Word.

If the Bible is eradicated (God forbid!) then one would have to assume there was likely persecution (or else global calamity) of some sort. But yes, I think the Holy Spirit would guide, God would reintroduce His word (through whatever means He deems fitting - anything from inspiration to angels to who knows what?), and there would come of that believers who would grow in the faith and then transfer that knowledge to others and help them to grow.

That's what I think anyway. :)
Agreed :):amen:
 
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Noxot

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Gxg (G²);65156032 said:
Are you of the mind we're trying to survive via the present in more developed countries?

I do think the way survival has gone does make a difference on things...

If thinking the past of no relevance, there'd be no shock for others in churches being wiped out
and rediscovering what already happened since it wouldn't be valued if coming across it again...
just as it is with others disregarding history books..

I don't know what people are doing, most of them seem trapped in a psychosis and almost completely mad.
only in part though since there is also a good angel with all. in some sense history does not matter.
that is not the root of the problem of humanity. the problem is that they are not set free by God,
they are not spiritually mature, they do not have the responsibility of freedom that God gave us,
and thus there are many problems in the world. when more people are set free, there will be more heaven in earth and less hades.
history can teach us, if we were able to properly learn. our hearts could teach us, if they were not so hardened by the world and hades.
I don't think it matters what someone does if they are aware of what they are doing,
and if they are truly aware they don't do things that are evil because they are aware that what they do to themselves or others they do to God.
what i'm trying to say with all this is that the root of the problem is the human condition as opposed to what they do.
what they do naturally comes out of what condition they are in. ignorance births ignorance, love births love.

I honestly have no clue what ( for example ) my countries (USA) mindset is about. it got us this far,
but I saw a lot better things in heaven, if only they knew that heaven is what God offers to them,
that it is what he desires for this world. and yet I guess so many are waiting for the day they die for heaven,
or for the return of Jesus to make everything better. I used to be the same way, except now I realize that God
sent his Spirit here for a reason, to melt to world with his fire and then the evil elements will burn up.
I realized that Jesus never left and he is still working on humanity.

I guess that I am of the mindset that most people are sleeping and don't know it, that they are far more ignorant of
reality than what God desires us to be. awake and praying, like Jesus wanted, he finding even the disciples falling
to sleep at a crucial moment in his life, his very friend assisting in his torture and death, along with all the crowd who
stupidly went along with the insanity of the religious and government leaders condemning the innocent lamb.
but Jesus accepted it all as from his loving Father, knowing that God would use what satan means for evil, for the
most profound and greatest good.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I guess that I am of the mindset that most people are sleeping and don't know it, that they are far more ignorant of
reality than what God desires us to be. awake and praying, like Jesus wanted, he finding even the disciples falling
to sleep at a crucial moment in his life, his very friend assisting in his torture and death, along with all the crowd who
stupidly went along with the insanity of the religious and government leaders condemning the innocent lamb.
but Jesus accepted it all as from his loving Father, knowing that God would use what satan means for evil, for the
most profound and greatest good.

It can take time for people to truly wake up...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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without Scriptures, it would be MUCH harder to follow the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that He could do it, but as for me that is often how I know what I know.
So glad the Lord is who He is - able to do beyond what we could ever think or imagine!
 
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sculleywr

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Gxg (G²);65187865 said:
Eschatology makes a world of difference, IMHO, when it comes to the issue of how one understands the Church Militant and struggle with Christ. For there are many schools of thought that see parallel dynamics when it comes to the Church Triumphant being HERE and still YET to come when it comes to the future intersecting with the past.....what has already occurred from God's perspective playing out in our time frame.

And for others, it's really not a matter of Christ lied since there were always various ways in which Christ was interpreted when it came to the way the Church Militant would be present. Many tend to have a view of Church Militant from a Futurist perspective - that all things must end at some point for the Church before Christ comes back - while others have a Partial Preterist perspective, that many things have already occurred and were not a clear-cut matter of "All saints disappear from the Earth - then Christ comes back." Some of this was discussed more in-depth elsewhere in #49

T.L. Frazier (an Orthodox Christian) made a solid case on the issue for not having a futurist perspective fully in one of the books he made - it's not partial-preterism per se so much as it's Amillennialism, which tends to carry partial-preterist tones in my opinion. It was a very compelling read, to be sure. It covers a broader spectrum of eschatological belief.... AND critiques (more accurately points out the lunacy of) some of the futurist nonsense that's been peddled the past half century, such as Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins and then the second half of the book discusses the historic Christian views in contrast to the futurist views. For more, one can investigate the following:

From where I've come from, it used to be a matter of believing the Church HAD to be on the Earth in order for God to reach the World - and then, once it left (per the End Times mindset I had), then the world would crumble. But in studying more on the issue and seeing partial preterism, I've come to understand how much it was never limited to that view alone when it comes to the Church Militant - and how much we end up making literal stances from things that were never clear cut from Jesus. A Church Militant not being present doesn't mean the Visible Church was prevailed over anymore than a Church hidden by God from persecution/having to remain underground and thus unknown to many above ground has been prevailed over because others may not know about it - in both the case of a Church hidden from others to preserve it and a Church wiped out but still present in Christ, the Lord is triumphant....and God's timing is everything.

If all churches were wiped out, I don't see how it would not be the case that Christ would simply not start over in sharing His revelation with another if it was HIS will that the Church continue on for others since he wishes none to perish and takes His time - it's not as if His hands are tied to the point where if all churches were instantly wiped out, his hand is forced and we end up doing things similar to what's advocated in much of Zionist thought when it comes to assuming we can speed up the hand of the Lord - a mindset many have had to combat for years:


https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/h...lse&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0</DIV>

Who's to say that the Lord could not easily replenish places where Churches were wiped out and share truth again in its fullness? Is anything too hard for the Lord? He's not trapped by man - and if it weren't possible for Him to do just that, I'd not find it wise to follow Him since he is controlled more by His creation than being in Control of all scenarios.... it's depressing to me to live in a world where God isn't capable of doing anything.

To be quite honest, Eschatological views about the end times, as viewed by us who aren't in the end times, ends up with enough views, even within ORthodox circles, to warrant caution. It's kinda like the Jewish pictures of Messiah at the time Christ came. Bunches of ideas, but most, if not all, were wrong.

We lack the context of the occurrence of things prophecied with which to read Scriptures about the future.

Yes, the Lord COULD do whatever He wants. But Christ promised His Church would never be prevailed against by even the gates of hell. And since the Church still exists, trying to imagine a time without the Church is like trying to imagine a time without the sun.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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To be quite honest, Eschatological views about the end times, as viewed by us who aren't in the end times, ends up with enough views, even within ORthodox circles, to warrant caution. It's kinda like the Jewish pictures of Messiah at the time Christ came. Bunches of ideas, but most, if not all, were wrong.

We lack the context of the occurrence of things prophecied with which to read Scriptures about the future.
.
Indeed - eschatology can be quite the animal to tackle. One of the reasons why it has been wisdom whenever others note the ways that there should always be a dynamic of focusing on the here/now ultimately with how one lives for the Lord seeing that NONE of us were present in the timeframe Christ and the Apostles spoke on the End Times (nor do we know fully what they were thinking) to have the full picture in place. It's not necessarily a matter of all being wrong as much as all being incomplete and needing to understand we see in part/know in part.

The same dynamic also goes for the issue of the Church Militant and what that actually means - it always becomes problematic whenever people assume they know fully what that meant when even the Fathers themselves had debates on the subject.

But thankfully, there are others that done great presentations on the issue. Fr. Thomas Hopko, a long time minister in the Orthodox Church, once presented what I think is probably on of the best message on fulfilled eschatology (similar to partial preterism...) and the Kingdom/Gospel narrative I have ever heard....in line with the "heaven now" view present throughout Orthodox theology.




Technically, his views were a fusion of both partial prêterism and idealism - as Partial Preterism has been present throughout Eastern Orthodox theology since the early church and dealing with the importance of the destruction of the Jewish temple, the meaning of the "end of the age" and why Christians should be troubled by efforts to rebuild a temple in Jerusalem or what the End Times may look like shouldn't be something believers need to be afraid of tackling - it's not stopping anyone from ultimately seeing that the Kingdom of God is triumphant TODAY.

Yes, the Lord COULD do whatever He wants. But Christ promised His Church would never be prevailed against by even the gates of hell. And since the Church still exists, trying to imagine a time without the Church is like trying to imagine a time without the sun
Obvious is the case that the Church (thankfully ) still exists - and thankful for the work done. Nonetheless, Christ promising His Church would never be prevailed has never been universally agreed upon to be saying His Church would never have times of immense absence on the Earth (even though present in Him) or that it was possible that the Church may never have a visible presence on the world at times - to consider that things could be wiped out is no different than others considering what would occur if the Sun did go out and discussing how survival would occur. There's a reason scientists have actually made that a point of focus just as they have with other global catastrophes which could occur and knowing how to deal with them - it's not as if they choose to live as if those events are happening (as the sun hasn't gone out/turned into a Super Nova...even though stars like it will eventually...and it's not as if there is a meteor/asteroid that has hit the Earth yet, even though such has occurred before and people prepare for that).

There have been Ice Ages, times where the Sun couldn't get through to many parts of the Earth (Volcanos/ash clouds making a difference at times) and other ecological disasters - and simply because those may be things we're not experiencing today doesn't mean it's automatically a matter of it not being able to occur again or happen on a wide scale/become something others should not have prepared for. Witnessing a time where things were drastically bad on the Earth didn't stop one from appreciating solid weather (just as meteorologists and scientists noting how the climate can alter don't automatically ignore the climate present or man being able to adapt) - and likewise, IMHO, it is the case that understanding/considering the idea of the Church not being present physically on the Earth isn't automatically a matter of the Kingdom of God not prevailing - seasons can change very quickly, but God's Kingdom never ends. Christ in His Church will ALWAYS be Triumphant - how that plays out on the Earth below (Church Militant) is not a matter anyone can know fully (and that includes the issue of what happens on the world we live in).

What is known is that Christ ultimately WINS in the end - with the Resurrection being one of the ultimate signs of that, as the resurrection doesn't happen until the end of time, when "the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12)

There is one Church, one body of Christ (Eph. 4:4). And there are saints alive in heaven (Rev. 5:8; 6:9-11; 7:9-15), or as Hebrews puts it when speaking of the Old Testament saints: "we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1). And speaking of a Church triumphant gives full expression, and takes literally, the Scriptural passage which says that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt. 22:32). The saints are not disconnected from the body of Christ, but aware of what is going on, even participating with us in the spiritual life. There are a number of arguments based on St. Paul in Gal. 1:24 (fullfilling in his suffering what is lacking in Christ's passion for the sake of the Church ) that echo the race analogy of comparing
the Church to a relay race ( I Cor. 9:21, Gal. 2:2, Phil. 3:14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1 etc.) ....for the saints, who prayed for others during their lives, cannot stop now having won the prize and finished the race successfully until God feels that the race/gathering others into His Kingdom is done.

And it can never be as if the saints in the Heavens above (or the Lord) would freak out if all the believers on the Earth below were removed - if there's still a race to be done, having an interruption to that race or Track & Field event would not mean the other runners are done. It is simply a pause - the race continues until others at the Track Meet feel it is over...and likewise, with the Lord, when he says it's over, that's when it'll be over - but man removing the physical saints from the Earth wouldn't be the same as God saying "Now I'm gonna move in/end it all" since it's the Lord who handles it all....until He feels the Church has become Triumphant and is no longer needing to be Militant.​
 
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sculleywr

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Gxg (G²);65326172 said:
Indeed - eschatology can be quite the animal to tackle. One of the reasons why it has been wisdom whenever others note the ways that there should always be a dynamic of focusing on the here/now ultimately with how one lives for the Lord seeing that NONE of us were present in the timeframe Christ and the Apostles spoke on the End Times (nor do we know fully what they were thinking) to have the full picture in place. It's not necessarily a matter of all being wrong as much as all being incomplete and needing to understand we see in part/know in part.

The same dynamic also goes for the issue of the Church Militant and what that actually means - it always becomes problematic whenever people assume they know fully what that meant when even the Fathers themselves had debates on the subject.

But thankfully, there are others that done great presentations on the issue. Fr. Thomas Hopko, a long time minister in the Orthodox Church, once presented what I think is probably on of the best message on fulfilled eschatology (similar to partial preterism...) and the Kingdom/Gospel narrative I have ever heard....in line with the "heaven now" view present throughout Orthodox theology.




Technically, his views were a fusion of both partial prêterism and idealism - as Partial Preterism has been present throughout Eastern Orthodox theology since the early church and dealing with the importance of the destruction of the Jewish temple, the meaning of the "end of the age" and why Christians should be troubled by efforts to rebuild a temple in Jerusalem or what the End Times may look like shouldn't be something believers need to be afraid of tackling - it's not stopping anyone from ultimately seeing that the Kingdom of God is triumphant TODAY.

Obvious is the case that the Church (thankfully ) still exists - and thankful for the work done. Nonetheless, Christ promising His Church would never be prevailed has never been universally agreed upon to be saying His Church would never have times of immense absence on the Earth (even though present in Him) or that it was possible that the Church may never have a visible presence on the world at times - to consider that things could be wiped out is no different than others considering what would occur if the Sun did go out and discussing how survival would occur. There's a reason scientists have actually made that a point of focus just as they have with other global catastrophes which could occur and knowing how to deal with them - it's not as if they choose to live as if those events are happening (as the sun hasn't gone out/turned into a Super Nova...even though stars like it will eventually...and it's not as if there is a meteor/asteroid that has hit the Earth yet, even though such has occurred before and people prepare for that).

There have been Ice Ages, times where the Sun couldn't get through to many parts of the Earth (Volcanos/ash clouds making a difference at times) and other ecological disasters - and simply because those may be things we're not experiencing today doesn't mean it's automatically a matter of it not being able to occur again or happen on a wide scale/become something others should not have prepared for. Witnessing a time where things were drastically bad on the Earth didn't stop one from appreciating solid weather (just as meteorologists and scientists noting how the climate can alter don't automatically ignore the climate present or man being able to adapt) - and likewise, IMHO, it is the case that understanding/considering the idea of the Church not being present physically on the Earth isn't automatically a matter of the Kingdom of God not prevailing - seasons can change very quickly, but God's Kingdom never ends. Christ in His Church will ALWAYS be Triumphant - how that plays out on the Earth below (Church Militant) is not a matter anyone can know fully (and that includes the issue of what happens on the world we live in).

What is known is that Christ ultimately WINS in the end - with the Resurrection being one of the ultimate signs of that, as the resurrection doesn't happen until the end of time, when "the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12)

There is one Church, one body of Christ (Eph. 4:4). And there are saints alive in heaven (Rev. 5:8; 6:9-11; 7:9-15), or as Hebrews puts it when speaking of the Old Testament saints: "we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1). And speaking of a Church triumphant gives full expression, and takes literally, the Scriptural passage which says that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt. 22:32). The saints are not disconnected from the body of Christ, but aware of what is going on, even participating with us in the spiritual life. There are a number of arguments based on St. Paul in Gal. 1:24 (fullfilling in his suffering what is lacking in Christ's passion for the sake of the Church ) that echo the race analogy of comparing
the Church to a relay race ( I Cor. 9:21, Gal. 2:2, Phil. 3:14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1 etc.) ....for the saints, who prayed for others during their lives, cannot stop now having won the prize and finished the race successfully until God feels that the race/gathering others into His Kingdom is done.

And it can never be as if the saints in the Heavens above (or the Lord) would freak out if all the believers on the Earth below were removed - if there's still a race to be done, having an interruption to that race or Track & Field event would not mean the other runners are done. It is simply a pause - the race continues until others at the Track Meet feel it is over...and likewise, with the Lord, when he says it's over, that's when it'll be over - but man removing the physical saints from the Earth wouldn't be the same as God saying "Now I'm gonna move in/end it all" since it's the Lord who handles it all....until He feels the Church has become Triumphant and is no longer needing to be Militant.​


"immense absence"? Is this different in any way from complete absence?

If there is even ONE person in His Church, with real connection back to the Apostles, then the Church persists.

Let us who are here pray we never need to experience a time of immense absence.

Btw: Fr. Hopko is one of my subscribed podcasters :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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"immense absence"? Is this different in any way from complete absence?
You could say that - you can never truly eradicate the people of God or His Word in an ultimate sense anyhow

If there is even ONE person in His Church, with real connection back to the Apostles, then the Church persists.
Indeed - and thus, God will ALWAYS win...He's always ahead of the game, with people in places no one would ever know about that get activated even after the enemy thinks he has gotten them all (or before it even gets to that point).
Let us who are here pray we never need to experience a time of immense absence.
Amen..
Btw: Fr. Hopko is one of my subscribed podcasters :)
:):clap:

That's awesome to hear....He's truly a godsend..
 
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sculleywr

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Gxg (G²);65415400 said:
You could say that - you can never truly eradicate the people of God or His Word in an ultimate sense anyhow

Indeed - and thus, God will ALWAYS win...He's always ahead of the game, with people in places no one would ever know about that get activated even after the enemy thinks he has gotten them all (or before it even gets to that point).
Amen..:):clap:

That's awesome to hear....He's truly a godsend..

lol, I think we were debating against completely different things. lol.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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LittleLambofJesus

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If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

If there was no way the Gospel Message could continue, that is probably when the end of the world comes,
when Jesus comes to bring the Gospel with Him and Saints to preach the Gospel for a 1000yr period as shown in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation. IMHO

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-101/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Matthew 24:3
Yet of sitting Him upon the Mount of the Olives, toward-came to Him the Disciples, according to own, saying "be telling to us, when?! shall these-things be
and what?! the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>
and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age"

Reve 16:17
and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out great voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven from the throne saying "it is finished!"
[Daniel 12/Revelation 15:1]






.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Mod Hat...

This thread has undergone a substantial cleanup, so if your post is missing, it was either deleted for being off topic, or it replied to an off topic post.

Now, while I have you guys here, I'm going to review a few rules, the first is regarding staying on topic. All conversations evolve and drift; but there is a distinct difference between drift and a related side discussion and a derailment. It says:




It also is a very good to keep in mind that if one is going to report a post, and has good reason to do so, then that post is not worthy of responding to... so if you report, don't respond; if you respond, it tells staff that you feel that it can be refuted in thread, then don't report it.

These, and all of our rules can be found here: Community Rules Please review these rules and keep them in mind when posting.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact either myself or any of our other members of staff.

Blessings and peace,

Mark
Staff supervisor.

Thread is now open...

Happy posting!
:)

It was that bad eh? :D




.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Eschatological views about the end times, as viewed by us who aren't in the end times, ends up with enough views, even within ORthodox circles, to warrant caution..
Was very thankful for what was noted here, as seen in the following:

To understand eschatology we must begin not with the ‘last things’, but with the past. If eschatology is ultimately the coming of the Kingdom of God, then we must begin with the gospels, in which Christ proclaims that the Kingdom has arrived. This is illustrated in the miracles and exorcisms which Christ wrought. The kingdom of death and sickness was overthrown. And yet, Christ also speaks of a kingdom to come. He speaks also of His second coming and the last judgement. Herein lies the paradox of the Church in its eschatological dimension: the Kingdom of God has already arrived, and still it is yet to come. This is the basis of our understanding of the Church, of the Kingdom of God, of heaven and hell.


The Church is, in the words of Fr George Florovsky, “the image of eternity in time”. Thus it lives both in this age and in the age to come. The “eschatological” dimension of the Church begins with Christ’s Resurrection. This was the beginning of the end. The early Christians spoke of their living in “the last days”, not because they simply got it wrong, but because they understood that the age to come had already broken through in this present age because Christ had already raised human nature into the heights of heaven by His Resurrection and Ascension, and promised to return in glory.​
 
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Gxg (G²)

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If All Churches/Church History was Wiped out, how would the Gospel Message Continue?

If there was no way the Gospel Message could continue, that is probably when the end of the world comes,
when Jesus comes to bring the Gospel with Him and Saints to preach the Gospel for a 1000yr period as shown in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation. IMHO
That's possible...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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There are so many negative events happening in our world today - and it seems that many are fearful for the Church, as it concerns persecution and the potential for life as we know it to cease if the Church gets wiped out somehow.

I was talking with one of my mentors (older brother and priest) and he brought the issue to my attention with the books he was collecting over the years - in light of the ways that it seemed books were being targeted more and more for editing out key information for the sake of controlling traffic of thought/how others saw themselves. For knowledge of the Bible is being lost - as well as knowledge of Church tradition when it comes to seeing how the Bible was composed and interpreted. For secular society openly rejects the Bible as being the Word of God, but Christians are becoming so caught up in other functions of the church that they are losing that hunger for scripture that used to drive them to study and absorb God&#8217;s Word.


And as my mentor has noted, many have been of the same mindset that there's massive attacks happening on churches worldwide and it'd not take much for things to go crazy

If all the history books in the world were burned up - and all documentation of the Church councils or the stories of the saints were wiped out, some have felt that the church itself would not be strong since scripture alone without understanding how it was interpreted and what the Church did is a big problem.

In example - in our times, if you had a small parish that had a bishop with a little bit of scripture was teaching....how would those people in that one tiny parish, following that ONE faithful bishop, know that their bishop was the faithful one and all the others weren't if they were isolated in their knowledge? Obviously, they would look at Scripture and at the liturgical texts. They also would read the Fathers and the councils and compare all that to what was being taught by their bishop, and all the other bishops. Of course, belief in apostolic succession (and probably a much wider swath of material to sift through before deciding who is right) would make a significant difference in how they interpreted things - say in an Orthodox or Catholic parish - than a Baptist or Methodist one. But what's consistent is that they would have many resources to use and turn to.

However, if you take these well-meaning people, whose circumstances are beyond their control, and place them within an area where there are no faithful bishops or where nobody sounds like he's in accord with the early fathers and Scripture, it would seem as if they had hit the end of the line with regard to faithful bishops and translation of information.

And with each feeling they are a remnant due to know knowing what was up, you'd end up with an issue that asks "How would you go about deciding which bishop was faithful and which wasn't?"

I wrestled over that for sometime - wondering how to go about addressing the issue - and on the subject, this is what I came up with in my estimation.

Even without a history of the Bishops of the Church or Church tradition present (as has occurred in places where Christianity was eradicated), who's to say that the Lord couldn't speak to others in the same way he did with the Prophets and the Apostles so that they'd have insight in the same way that those with the traditions of the Church had?

God isn't limited by what men lose....as He's able to translate ideas to others and it's more than possible (and has occurred ) that people may not have a memory of a tradition valued in the Church and yet they may still - by the leading of the Lord - live out the very thing that the early Church valued anyhow. And their actions, if there is a gap in memory of what happened before, would simply be taken as the beginning of a new cycle and memories that future generations of the Church would look back to.

Middle Eastern/Near-Eastern culture is where the Israelites developed in - and of course, one could argue that it seems others today are not distinct in being recognized as other cultures connected with Middle-Eastern culture (as with Muslims) - but that even Muslim culture developed in architechture after stealing it from the Arabic Christians/Eastern Christians, reverse-engineering what they saw and then having all other preceeding generations assume that it was a "Muslim" innovation to have the buildings they turned into mosques be as they are. The architecture of the earliest minarets, which are square rather than round, unmistakably derive from the church towers of Byzantine Syria (and several other things that Muslims have a part of their culture already came from Eastern Christians/Jewish believers - as noted before.

Professor Philip Jenkiins Philip Jenkins noted it in-depth in his work entitled "The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia &#8212; and How It Died". It was very brilliant in discussing the many experiences of believers who literally spread around the world with the Gospel of Messiah---and yet experienced many pains/difficulties despite the victories they had.

As one review said best:

But just as he restores this lost history of expansion, he also gives due consideration to the near extinction of Christianity in these lands by about 1300. This requires a nuanced discussion of the "ferocious organized violence" (pp. 101, 141) of Islam that conquered many of these Christian lands, and Jenkins takes care not to say too much or too little. Between the years 1200 and 1400 most all of these churches had vanished except for significant remnants like Coptic Christians in Egypt. By around the year 1900, writes Jenkins, "the whole Middle East accounted for just 0.9 percent of the world's Christians" (155) &#8212; a stunning reversal of fortunes for a once powerful presence. In his final pages Jenkins moves beyond the confines of secular history to a "theology of extinction" (249).

He inquires what existential meaning for faith we might derive from this story of our Christian forbears. Even if some churches die, the Church lives on, and the possibility for resurrection rests in the recovery of historical memory.


Some of the largest Christian denominations during the much of European Middle Ages were in the camps of those Churches - especially in the Church of the East, which was a far reaching web reaching as far as Tibet and China. Along with the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Asian and African members of now almost forgotten churches dominated the Middle East in the centuries before the Muslim conquest and then provided most of the architectural, administrative, and scholarly backbone for the Arabic Empire....but when the sect of Islam began to rise in geographical locations, they took over and claimed the buildings made for themselves.


And yet, what they stood for found ways to arise again in different contexts even after many in Islam did everything possible to wipe them out - in some areas succeeding completely (just as it is happening unfortunately in Syria and as occurred in Iraq).

There seems to be the dynamic of seasons clearly involved----where the church at times had great persecution (Acts 8) and at others there were long times/periods of peace (Acts 9), where God prospered his people to do well for the purpose of helping others. And then there are times when the Lord may allow it for the Church to be wiped out in certain places only for it to develop elsewhere in another area/take on a differing development. Often one will read books on Church Growth, but not many have ever read a book on the death or extinction of a church even when in history, church death is a very common phenomenon. Christianity has within it a very migratory dynamic where it WILL survive and Christ will never shut down-----no matter what form of government exists--since Christianity moves from one area to another.

Though it may dies in areas where it has been strong, that is not something to be discouraged about....

For reference:


Yes, unfortunately, the history of those saints from the original Early Church would be lost if things started over again without the lessons from the past.....and it'd stink to not be able to remember them. Nonetheless, they are present within the Church Eternal and the Heavens with Christ - so the wisdom of God could continue on anew. Others would wrestle over issues just as the Early Church did all over again - and although new trajectories may occur (just as they did the first time and still are doing today), the same wisdom God gave the FIRST time would continue onward.

And it'd be like a tree being chopped down - but still having seeds planted by the one who made it originally - and those seeds coming up all over again..




~

On the issue, it may not be the best example - but I was challenged when remembering this scene from one of my favorite movies - called "Book of Eli" (with Denzel Washington) - where the future had it where all the Bibles/ties to the Church were destroyed after nuclear war nearly killed all of humanity and religion was blamed ...and where one man who was blind had enough vision to hide God's Word within Him so that it'd never be lost wherever you go. All the Bibles in the world were destroyed and memory of the Church lost - yet one man found a brail Bible to read that he was guided to....and even after losing that, he STILL was able to translate it.

The Book of Eli - Eli Cites Genesis 1 - YouTube

"There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD" (Proverbs 21:30) - and so true that you can pulp a story but you cannot destroy an idea, for that's ancient knowledge and glad that even if every page of every Bible everywhere was destroyed, God will make sure it will find a way to reprint itself again.

And even if men try to wage war against God with his own gifts (as every good thing we have is on loan from Him), God will find a way to take what men present and make it a present/gift to glorify Himself because that's who He is.

Eli End - YouTube

Does anyone else feel similar to what I've been noting? Do you feel that the Church could ever be rebooted so to speak or in danger of being wiped out - only for God to start over fresh with it? Or is that something that shouldn't even be a concern?

And if the Bibles and Church history was erased/destroyed but somehow managed to survive, do you feel that what would emerge afterward would look radically different than what we see now with all the different camps that have arisen (i.e. Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etc.) or would groups formulate again that'd be exactly the same to what happened before?

Glad Dr.Jenkins did a video presentation on the concept of having a THEOLOGY of extinction...

 
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Noxot

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Jesus had a lot of the answers already.

people seem to have a natural bias for secondary things and they tend to put secondary things as the head and forget who is the one who truly matters. it is the entire problem of the difference between the soul and the spirit.
Matt 19:16-26 (YLT)
And lo, one having come near, said to him, `Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have life age-during?' And he said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One--God; but if thou dost will to enter into the life, keep the commands.' He saith to him, `What kind?' And Jesus said, `Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, honour thy father and mother, and, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' The young man saith to him, `All these did I keep from my youth; what yet do I lack?' Jesus said to him, `If thou dost will to be perfect, go away, sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me.' And the young man, having heard the word, went away sorrowful, for he had many possessions; and Jesus said to his disciples, `Verily I say to you, that hardly shall a rich man enter into the reign of the heavens; and again I say to you, it is easier for a camel through the eye of a needle to go, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God.' And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?' And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'

I mean, can something that is dead earnestly behold you?

see how some men are bound by mere compulsion to repeat what has already been done? I know that tradition is a good thing but most things can become good or evil. see how Jesus explains how in the spirit a person is existing in reality and not mere abstract thinking? abstract thinking and set rules and laws have their use and are part of reality but "the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." reality often logically explains itself because God is the mind behind it. the spirit gives life and without it what are we left with but the old or death or secondary things? if death is destruction and life is preservation then it is the spirit or person that makes the outer garment worthy and God has always refreshed us because he is the Father of lights who gives every perfect gift.
Matt 9:14-17 (YLT)
Then come to him do the disciples of John, saying, `Wherefore do we and the Pharisees fast much, and thy disciples fast not?' And Jesus said to them, `Can the sons of the bride-chamber mourn, so long as the bridegroom is with them? but days shall come when the bridegroom may be taken from them, and then they shall fast. `And no one doth put a patch of undressed cloth on an old garment, for its filling up doth take from the garment, and a worse rent is made. `Nor do they put new wine into old skins, and if not--the skins burst, and the wine doth run out, and the skins are destroyed, but they put new wine into new skins, and both are preserved together.'

so in the spirit we fast and are poor when we are deaf and blind and the spirit makes us rich and able to see but if we are forgiven and then we beat those who have slighted us then have we not thrown away our inheritance in debauchery and forgotten what is greater than riches? all things are pure to the pure but who is your everything?
 
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