I struggle with...

[Silmarien]

Now, my question would be, even if God did dictate to Moses how he created the universe, does anyone really think he was going to give a complicated scientific explanation to an ancient people? Start off with a lesson in astrophysics, maybe? I wouldn't consider myself an Old Earth Creationist, but I am intrigued by the idea that there might be something to the order of events in Genesis 1 if you get around the storybook presentation.

You asked why creationists accept creationism. I told you that I accept creationism because it is taught in the Bible. You asked if it really was taught in the Bible. I said yes. The reason I believe the Bible teaches creationism is because it is explicitly taught through the text of Scripture, starting with Genesis 1. The only way around these explicit teachings is to deny the historical understandings of the Jews and the church regarding these passages. As well, one must deny the plain language of the text.

Plenty of people in the Early Church, especially in the School of Alexandria, were allegorists who wouldn't have understood Genesis literally. Even Saint Augustine thought that all of Creation was brought into existence in a single moment, and he's one of the most influential theologians in Western Christianity.

 

[Tree of Life]

We can justify confidence in science using reasoned argument. Creationists, as the thread demonstrates, can only say they believe because they want to believe.

I think we're just coming from different starting points. Your starting assumptions are:

1. Human perception and reason is reliable
2. There is no God

Then you work it out from there.

My starting assumptions are:

1. There is a Creator
2. He has revealed himself through creation and Scripture

 

[Barry Desborough]

I think we're just coming from different starting points. Your starting assumptions are:

1. Human perception and reason is reliable
2. There is no God

Then you work it out from there.

My starting assumptions are:

1. There is a Creator
2. He has revealed himself through creation and Scripture

Please don't tell me what my starting assumptions are.

They are, actually,

1) Human perception may be fallible, but it may be possible to compensate for the fact, to a degree.
2) There may or may not be a "God".

 

[Barry Desborough]

These are good reasons why the scientific process is reliable. But these do not explain why science is the most reliable means of getting to knowledge. If God exists, wouldn't his word be a greater justification of knowledge than empiricism?

Presupposes 1) that "God" is something, and 2) that the Bible is his word, and 3) that you are interpreting it correctly. All unsupported assertions.

 

[Tree of Life]

1) Human perception may be fallible, but it may be possible to compensate for the fact, to a degree.

How do you know this?

 

[Barry Desborough]

How do you know this?

Read my comment again.

 

[Tree of Life]

Read my comment again.

No comments that you've made answer my question.

 

[Barry Desborough]

No comments that you've made answer my question.

Remind me.

 

[Tree of Life]

Remind me.

How do you know that human perception is reliable, although fallible?

 

[Barry Desborough]

How do you know that human perception is reliable, although fallible?

For the most part, it works. See Veritas: What is True?

 

[Tree of Life]

For the most part, it works. See Veritas: What is True?

What does "works" mean in this context?

 

[Barry Desborough]

What does "works" mean in this context?

Science, as the most advanced of human enterprises (built on human perception and experience), has: Cured diseases. Taken us to the Moon. Built the internet. Discovered exoplanets. Explained how new species arise. Given us Teflon, and 4K TV screens. Need I go on? [Staff edit].

 

[Saint Beloved]

Science, as the most advanced of human enterprises (built on human perception and experience), has: Cured diseases. Taken us to the Moon. Built the internet. Discovered exoplanets. Explained how new species arise. Given us Teflon, and 4K TV screens. Need I go on?

I believe God created everything seen and unseen from nothing so that trumps anything humans 'make'. Why is my opinion less valid to you than yours is to me?

 

[Barry Desborough]

I believe God created everything seen and unseen from nothing so that trumps anything humans 'make'. Why is my opinion less valid to you than yours is to me?

Evidence.

 

[Saint Beloved]

Evidence.

God has given His evidence to me multiple times.
I don't ask to see your evidence to validate your opinion.
You erase my opinion because it's beyond you.
Your opinion is beyond me but I accept it as being truth to you.

 

[Barry Desborough]

God has given His evidence to me multiple times.
I don't ask to see your evidence to validate your opinion.

If you say you don't want to see my evidence, that is an admission that your mind is closed and that there is nothing I can say to you that is worth saying. But I'd really like to know: Why are you posting here in my thread?

 

[USincognito]

This is the best argument (with science) for creationism I have ever heard. It makes quite a lot of sense.

.

Ugh, the only thing worse than the content was his presentation.

 

[Wolfe]

You expect me to watch 1:20 hours of this? Precis please.

So you're looking for the truth, and answers to your questions, and possibly a life changing revelation, and you can't spare and hour and a half?

 

[Saint Beloved]

If you say you don't want to see my evidence, that is an admission that your mind is closed and that there is nothing I can say to you that is worth saying. But I'd really like to know: Why are you posting here in my thread?

That's interesting that's the same point I made earlier which you dismissed. Interesting that it's valid if you use it though.
Even if you showed me your evidence I wouldn't understand it to appreciate it! Haha, that's honesty not closed mindedness.
God has revealed Himself to me in a way that I can understand I don't know the whole of Him or pride myself that I ever will.

[Staff edit].

As for why I am in your thread I popped in earlier to answer in my own special way your question.

 

[Wolfe]

Evidence.

Ahh like, the observable evidence of evolution? Oh.. there is none, dang.
So, the evidence that the world manifested out of nothing? Ahh, again, none.
Oh here's one! Science completely explains, morality, love, art, and consciousness.
Nevermind, seems it doesn't.

What evidence do you have exactly to support your worldview?