I struggle with...

[Barry Desborough]

What, particularly, is alien?

I can assume where you are going, but I could be very wrong. Also, I am presenting myself with the caveat that my definition of "creationism" - even literally - still disagrees with colloquial creationism.

What is alien to me is how anyone can believe a woodenly literal interpretation Genesis.

 

[Barry Desborough]

I must have missed it. I believe the Bible because of the grace of God. Had God not given me grace then I would not believe in the Bible. No natural man, without the work of God, can come to belief in the Bible.

Sorry. This may as well be in a language I don't have. It looks like English, but carries no meaning for me.

 

[tstor]

Sorry. This may as well be in a language I don't have. It looks like English, but carries no meaning for me.

Precisely.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14; ESV)​

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Wha is alien to me is how anyone can believe a woodenly literal interpretation Genesis.

It works, and the apocryphal books back up the alleged allegory of Genesis.

One big thing that colloquial creationism seems to miss is that the earth/heavens are age old - literally here before the first interval of time was defined. Earth, by Genesis 1:1, is NOT 6,000 years old.

Humanity may be 6000 years old, but I doubt that even - considering again the apocrypha, historical, mythological and scientific sources. I would say humanity as we know it could be as much as 14,000 years old.

But, this also fails to account for the retardation and acceleration of time in nature itself (time does, in fact, accelerate and decelerate even in non-relativistic environments.)

 

[Barry Desborough]

Precisely.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14; ESV)​

So you are unable to explain. I can accept that admission.

 

[tstor]

So you are unable to explain. I can accept that admission.

You did not request an explanation. You simply said it had no meaning to you, which is a far cry from requesting an explanation.

 

[Barry Desborough]

You did not request an explanation. You simply said it had no meaning to you, which is a far cry from requesting an explanation.

Re-read my OP.

 

[Tree of Life]

...trying to understand the creationist mentality. I've been struggling with this for years. Is anyone prepared to give an honest, clear explanation as to why they believe in creationism?

As has been said, we believe in creation because we believe in God. Furthermore, we believe that God has spoken and that his word is found in Scripture. Thirdly, Scripture teaches the doctrine of creation. It's really very simple. But for someone who does not believe in God it's incomprehensible.

 

[tstor]

Re-read my OP.

Your first question was the following:

Is anyone prepared to give an honest, clear explanation as to why they believe in creationism?
​

I gave you my answer. You then asked another question, which is here:

And I asked you why you believe the Bible.​

I answered that question as well. Now I am supposed to assume you need an explanation to my second answer?

 

[Saint Beloved]

Using a word like 'faith' doesn't help explain anything. To me, it's just a noise.

Samantic satiation, eh? That's not surprising to us. The Creator tells us those who are in spiritual darkness cannot understand and that unless His Spirit hovers over the person and gives them light they remain in spiritual darkness. I know that sounds convenient but it's truth to us. There are two options open to us: We can pray over and for you that The Creator's Spirit hovers over you to bring you light and peace or you can choose to stay in spiritual darkness and this noise of ours remains between us. I say this not to hurt you but to explain as best I can the reason for this barrier.

I have no other word accept belief which is equally noise to you? Friend, I don't know how to explain mine or anothers peace in our Creator it just 'is' a tangible thing to us like your house keys or wallet is to you. The Creator and the reliability of Scripture to us is like your health insurance or highschool diploma, it's there, reliable, tangible, believable.

That's all I got for ya hopefully someone else can flesh it out a bit if need be!

Take care

 

[Barry Desborough]

As has been said, we believe in creation because we believe in God. Furthermore, we believe that God has spoken and that his word is found in Scripture. Thirdly, Scripture teaches the doctrine of creation. It's really very simple. But for someone who does not believe in God it's incomprehensible.

Yet another "We believe it because we believe it". I'm glad that you agree that such a view is incomprehensible. Perhaps this will help me desist from trying to understand. Thank you.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yet another "We believe it because we believe it". I'm glad that you agree that such a view is incomprehensible. Perhaps this will help me desist from trying to understand. Thank you.

No. I did not say "we believe X because we believe X". I said "we believe X because we believe Y" and X follows logically from Y.

This is really the only way to explain why anyone believes anything - by appealing to other beliefs that we hold. This eventually leads to axiomatic beliefs that have no other explanation than that we believe them.

The same is true for you. For example, if I asked you "why do you believe in evolution" you would say "because it's scientifically proven!" But what you're really saying there is "I believe in evolution because I believe in science". You believe because you believe.

 

[Barry Desborough]

Your first question was the following:

Is anyone prepared to give an honest, clear explanation as to why they believe in creationism?
​

I gave you my answer. You then asked another question, which is here:

And I asked you why you believe the Bible.​

I answered that question as well. Now I am supposed to assume you need an explanation to my second answer?

It all boils down to the same thing. Essentially, I asked you why you believe what you believe. Your replies essentially boil down to, "Because I believe it." I think the most honest answer has come from "Tree of Life", above. He/she says that your belief is incoherent.

 

[Barry Desborough]

No. I did not say "we believe X because we believe X". I said "we believe X because we believe Y" and X follows logically from Y.

This is really the only way to explain why anyone believes anything - by appealing to other beliefs that we hold. This eventually leads to axiomatic beliefs that have no other explanation than that we believe them.

The same is true for you. For example, if I asked you "why do you believe in evolution" you would say "because it's scientifically proven!" But what you're really saying there is "I believe in evolution because I believe in science". You believe because you believe.

Oh, I can go on at length about how science is the surest way to the surest knowledge (but never infallible). But that is not the subject of this thread.

 

[Tree of Life]

Oh, I can go on at length about how science is the surest way to the surest knowledge (but never infallible). But that is not the subject of this thread.

Nice dodge.

You believe that science is the surest way to knowledge. Christians believe that God's word is the surest way to knowledge but that science is also essential.

This is the big difference.

Because you don't like God you have a hard time imagining submitting to his word and it is thus difficult for you to make sense of the creationist mentality, as you say.

 

[Tree of Life]

Barry, why do you believe that science is the surest way to knowledge?

 

[Barry Desborough]

Nice dodge.

You believe that science is the surest way to knowledge. Christians believe that God's word is the surest way to knowledge but that science is also essential.

This is the big difference.

Because you don't like God you have a hard time imagining submitting to his word and it is thus difficult for you to make sense of the creationist mentality, as you say.

We can justify confidence in science using reasoned argument. Creationists, as the thread demonstrates, can only say they believe because they want to believe.

[Staff edit].

 

[Barry Desborough]

Barry, why do you believe that science is the surest way to knowledge?

Big question. Short answer. Falsifiability. Consilience. Parsimony. Pragmatics. A significant contrast to the claims of religionists.

 

[Tree of Life]

Big question. Short answer. Falsifiability. Consilience. Parsimony. Pragmatics. A significant contrast to the claims of religionists.

These are good reasons why the scientific process is reliable. But these do not explain why science is the most reliable means of getting to knowledge. If God exists, wouldn't his word be a greater justification of knowledge than empiricism?

 

[Saint Beloved]

I gave an honest answer.
Nothing I could have said long or short would have sounded any better to your ears unless I conformed to your opinion which I can't without damning myself. I don't think it has to be religion or science I think you can appreciate both. Science and archaeology have made leaps and bounds in the last few years backing up Scriptures. The Creator is a scientist, mathematician and an artist. Logical, orderly and creative.