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Jimmy D

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wait a moment...I keep forgetting that if you are responding to me than I can read your post for what it says in relation to my argument...so what you are saying here then is that you disagree with Hawking...you believe that the chance is NOT small as Hawking and I say but rather the chance is huge...please back up your claim and show any scientist or other public figure that agrees with you on this matter....thanks, I'll try to keep in mind that I can read your posts as if they are directed at what I say and not your reinvention of what I say.

Reading comprehension letting you down or just a straw man? I never said that, no need for a lengthy diatribe about my reading comprehension, a post number where I did will do. If you'd like to know my opinion on the probability of life arising through natual proccesses (which I assume you're referring to), I would say such a thing is impossible to calculate, there are just too many unkown variables..... the atmospheric conditions prevelant at the time, the chemical ingredients necessary, the reactions that must have taken place etc. I don't pretend to know the answers but there is plenty of scientific research being done in the area....

In 2001 Louis Allamandola demonstrated that organic material can be synthesized in deep space using a "Chill vacuum chamber"--a lot of biomolecules: nitriles, ethers, alcohols, ring-like hydrocarbons, and others.[8] [9]

In a complementary experiment, Jennifer Blank at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory reported: "Through subsequent chemical analysis, the team discovered that the initial amino acids in the mixture had linked together to form peptides, from which proteins can be formed."[10]

In 2010 Craig Venter and his colleagues inserted a wholly artificial chromosome into a bacterial cell and produced the first artificial life form (a.k.a. "dial-a-genome").[11] While it may seem like artificial abiogenesis, it nevertheless involved some major cheating: the artificial chromosome was constructed using gene sequences of an existing organism.

As of 2011, Lee Cronin at the University of Glasgow is trying to start an evolutionary process in polyoxometalate-based "cells".[12]

In 2014 a group of researchers managed to produce all four components of RNA by simulating an asteroid impact in primordial conditions.[13]

A 2015 paper showed that the chemical precursors for the synthesis of amino acids, lipids and nucleotides, which would be required in a primitive cell, could have all arisen simultaneously through reactions driven by ultraviolet light. [14]

In 2015 the lander Philae discovered 16 organic compounds, four of which had never been detected on a comet before, on the comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko. Many of the organic compounds are important building-blocks of life.[15] [16][17]

In 2015, NASA scientists studying the origin of life managed to reproduce uracil, cytosine, and thymine from an ice sample containing pyrimidine under conditions found in space.[18][19]

A 2016 study showed that the building blocks of life can be replicated in deep-sea vents. These experiments have for the first time demonstrated that RNA molecules can form in alkaline hydrothermal chimneys.[20][21]



Maybe have a read of this one:

https://phys.org/news/2015-06-evidence-emerges-life.html

Obviously professional scientists see some merit in the idea.

I don't see why this is a particular issue anyway, you yourself suggested that Geneisis is neither a scientific treatise nor specific enough to suggest how the creating was done, which I agree with.

It does raise the question of why you feel the need to insist that Genesis is confirmed by science in the first place - which leads us back to the OP. Why reject evidenced scientific facts to try and demonstrate that what is basically a poem about the ancient Hebrew relationship with God is a factual history of our origins.

Before complain that you aren't rejecting science please see the next post.....
 
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Jimmy D

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oh come on, you have to be better at reading for comprehension than this...what did I say? I said that I find the fossil record inconclusive because X, Y, and Z...I then compared that to why I also find the prophecy to be the weakest evidence for God and scripture and then...just to not leave any doubts, I went to non creation sites and showed that even scientists find the fossil record to be very weak evidence. Wow...your attacking me for agreeing with scientists that the fossil record is very weak evidence and you think that is wise? How? What do you gain from mocking me for agreeing with science and scientists?

Sure, you said that the fossil record is inconclusive but frankly you say a lot of things that are unsupportable.

My point is that science does not confirm the creation story as you claim, our study of the fossil record shows.......

The evolution of birds began in the Jurassic Period, with the earliest birds derived from a clade of theropoda dinosaurs named Paraves.[1] Birds are categorized as a biological class, Aves. The earliest known is Archaeopteryx lithographica, from the Late Jurassic period, though Archaeopteryx is not commonly considered to have been a true bird. Modern phylogenies place birds in the dinosaur clade Theropoda. According to the current consensus, Aves and a sister group, the order Crocodilia, together are the sole living members of an unranked "reptile" clade, the Archosauria. Four distinct lineages of bird survived the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event 66 million years ago, giving rise to ostriches and relatives (Paleognathae), ducks and relatives (Anseriformes), ground-living fowl (Galliformes), and “modern birds” (Neoaves).

Evolution of birds - Wikipedia

The evolution of birds began in the Jurassic, when creatures had been walking the Earth for over a hundred million years.

We also have evidence of life existing six hundred million years ago, over one hundred million years before the first plants appeared on land. Not to mention the fact that we have evidence of the earliest plants developing in the sea.

Evidence for the appearance of the first land plants occurs in the Ordovician, around 450 million years ago, in the form of fossil spores.[7] Land plants began to diversify in the Late Silurian, from around 430 million years ago, and the results of their diversification are displayed in remarkable detail in an early Devonian fossil assemblage from the Rhynie chert. This chert, formed in volcanic hot springs, preserved several species of early plants in cellular detail by petrification.[8]

Evolutionary history of plants - Wikipedia

You can argue about whether or not you accept that, but it is the scientific consensus backed up by mountains of research and evidence. Therefore science does not concur with the creation account.

For clarification here is a diagram showing the timescale of the emergence of different forms of life. Sure, it's only a simplistic diagram but it serves a purpose for a demonstration of the topic at hand.


upload_2017-6-13_9-20-13.png
 
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Jimmy D

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oh come on, you have to be better at reading for comprehension than this...what did I say? I said that I find the fossil record inconclusive because X, Y, and Z...

Your "reasons" for rejecting the fossil record are unjustifable. It's obviously you only hold this view because it conflicts with your religious beliefs, but let's look at your justifications....

I shouldn't have to explain to you why that is about as flimsy of evidence as it gets, so let me just say this....whereas the fossil record is the strongest evidence we have that could potentially falsify the Biblical creation when read for comprehension it is no stronger evidence than is prophecy as evidence for the scriptures being God breathed. IOWs if we are being honest we cannot deny there is evidence there but because of the very nature of the evidence neither alone makes a strong case.

You do need to explain it... the scientific consensus is clear. An article endorsed by The American Geological Institute and The Paleontological Society explains why it's important....

"For at least 300 years, scientists have been gathering the evidence for evolutionary change. Much of this vast database is observational, and the evidence came to light with the study of fossils (paleontology) and the rock record (geology). This essay focuses on the evidence about evolution from the fossil record.

Documentation of ancestor-descendant relationships among organisms also comes from the fields of biogeography, taxonomy, anatomy, embryology and, most recently, genetics — particularly DNA analysis.

The fossil record remains first and foremost among the databases that document changes in past life on Earth. Fossils provide the dimension of time to the study of life. Some of the most basic observations about fossils and the rock record were made long before Darwin formulated his theory of “descent with modification.” The fossil record clearly shows changes in life through almost any sequence of sedimentary rock layers. Successive rock layers contain different groups or assemblages of fossil species."



The problem of fossil record is several fold. Just for starters...1. the number of fossils we have to study compared to all life and even all fossils is incredibly small.

Well, paleontologists have identified and described about 250,000 different species. I'm not suggesting that what you're saying is entirely inaccurate, fossilization requires specific conditions and is not a common phenomenom. What we do have though is enough to paint a clear picture of the history of life on earth (as evidenced by the illustration in my previous post).

2. the sorting of fossils is not evidence for anything but our ability to sort things. In fact, we teach kids in elementary school that there are different ways to sort things. So no, not hard evidence of anything but our ability to sort.

Sort what? They're sorted in chronolgical order according to the date of the layer they're found in, how could they be "sorted" differently?

and 3. even the "age" of fossils and their location could be explained by other theories. whereas it is your best evidence against creation as per our premise it doesn't even come close to falsification. Best it can do is question 1. creation or 2. our sorting choice. Which is at best a 50/50....

Explained by other theories? What other theories?

Geochronology is well understood and researched, geologists are not idiots blundering around making guesses, there are practical applications to the science involved which produce results. why do you think companies like Shell, Exxon-Mobil, and British Petroleum invest huge sums of money into geochronological research?

I'm sorry, but evidence from paleontolgy, biology, gentetics, geology etc all lines up to confirm our current understanding of the mechanisms, timelines and interrelatedness of life on Earth.

You seem to be labouring under the mistaken belief that I am arguing against "creation", I'm not. I'm trying to discuss the creationist mindset brought up in the OP that rejects scientific fact in favour of a particular interpretation of Genesis.
 
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Colter

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Well, guys like Anaxagoras and Empedocles tend to get the credit for the general idea, but if you're talking Biblical, St. Augustine got the ball rolling, although he specified that the world was created from existing materials, which kind of torpedoes your ex nihilo theory.

Creationism was never really taken seriously as scientific/historical "truth" until after Darwin... sure, people like Paley had his famous teleological "watchmaker" argument back in 1802, but he never accepted a Biblical timeline, which got pwned by James Hutton once and for all back in 1785.

Contrary to popular (and ignorant) belief, Darwin did believe in "creation" as responsible for the origin of life, although he never postulated when or how that might have occurred -- clearly the Biblical timeline was out, thanks to Hutton, and Darwin, being a naturalist, apparently saw no need to go off on a supernatural tangent.

Creationism as we know and "love" it was a Presbyterian invention. It grew out of the Niagra Bible Conference of 1878, which founded "Christian Fundamentalism" in 1910, so I guess you could give them the credit, but it didn't really begin to grow in the US until the mid 20th century... not coincidentally, around the time that Natural Selection became a mainstream topic in science and science education, than the fundamentalists were afraid that such thought would weaken their sociopolitical influence.

In short, there was no one person, but rather quite a few over the centuries... none of which should be considered 100% correct, regardless of whether or not God is.
The common creation story was created by the authors of Genesis in Babylon culling from Mesopotamian lore. After the return it became generally accepted. Christianity incorporated the OT books into their theology.
 
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