Hymns like this?

[seashale76]

Suplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos and Evervirgin Mary (in english) - YouTube

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I do not delve much into the supplicatory canon used in the EO and EC churches (in my free time), but the "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" is the only part of it that could appear controversial off the top of my head.

When we take the prayers as a whole, you will notice that The Trinity, one in essence and undivided is still very prominent in the prayer. It even starts out:

O Lord, I have heard of
the wondrous mystery of Your salvation;
I have contemplated all Your works
And I have glorified Your great divinity.

Indeed - seeing the entire prayer in its context makes a world of difference...

With the prayer itself, it may help others with understanding the basis for even having a hymn for Mary if/when they understand that having a figure like her as one to intercede is not something which Judaism itself was against. As mentioned more in-depth elsewhere in the thread entitled Why did early Christians pray for the dead?, In some elements of Judaism intercession is asked of deceased tzadikim (more here/ here)- and it seems to me that Judaism is where the RCC and EO (as well as OO) got it from. For more specifics, I'm reminded of Moses being seen to intercede for the people as well as other prophets. I also see Rachael weeping for her children and why the rabbis said Rachael was left on the road/buried where she was. We can start with what occurred with Rachael weeping for her children at Rachel's Tomb where others (Jews and Muslims alike) come for prayer. On the context of that, Rachael was weeping for her children and it's why the rabbis said Rachael was left on the road/buried where she was.

Rachel died giving birth to her second child Benjamin before reaching Jacob's father house, 'before reaching Ephrath' - Bethlehem (Genesis 35:19). Jacob buries her where she died, in her own tomb (Gen 35:20; 48:17) and not in the ancestral tomb at Machpelah. And just before the entrance to the city of David, whose ancestor is Judah, Leah's fourth son. Jacob tells us that 'when I came from Paddan, Rachel, to my sorrow, died in the land of Canaan . . . and I buried her there' (48:7). Why does Jacob not carry Rachel's body the twenty or so miles south from the alleged place of her demise to the cave at Machpelah which Genesis states as the proper burial site for members of Abraham's family. Jacob himself tells us he buried Leah in the Machpelah (Gen.49:31) and he requests that he himself be buried there as well (50:13). So why does Jacob not bury his beloved Rachel at Machpelah, but rather in a roadside grave? According to a midrash because she dishonored her father by stealing (on the Ten Commandments)...and according to another midrash Jacob knew of that the Babylonian exiles would pass by and Rachel could pray for mercy (midrash Rabbah Gen. 82:10). Her early death is attributed by the Rabbis to Jacob's curse over the teraphim as seen in Genesis 31:31-33 and Genesis 31:17-20.

• Rachel: Midrash and Aggadah | Jewish Women's Archive

• 
  
  Capsule History - The Committee for Rachel's Tomb
  ​

In Jewish thought with Rachael weeping for her children/praying for them whenever they passed by her way. The Jews have been asking the matriarch Rachael for her intercessions since (according to one Jewish source*) the time of Joseph, who first asked his mother for her intercession as he passed her tomb on the way to his captivity. Her tomb is, to this day, a pilgrimage site as the devout still ask for her prayers.

Per this, the passage in Jeremiah (Rachel crying for her children) is interpreted in Judaism as her intercessions to God.

* Tanach, Stone edition, in a footnote.

For more, as seen here at Judaism.com:

Ever since her passing, thousands of men, women, and children have journeyed to the Tomb of Rachel (Kever Rochel) to request her intercession on their behalf. The barren pray for children. The sick pray for health. The lost and the troubled pray for release and relief. And no one ever leaves empty-handed. For Emeinu (Our Mother) always gives her blessings.

Jacob must have known that her resting place would become, like Jerusalem, a destination for pilgrims. Therefore, the Bible writes, "Over her grave Jacob put up a pillar, it is the pillar at Rachel's grave to this day." (Genesis 35:20-21)
​

For some good resources to investigate, there are two editions of the OT; the LXX, and the Stone edition of the Tanach (Masoretic, tr. by a board of Rabbis). Amazon.com: Tanach: The Stone, Student Size Black (9781578191123): Nosson Scherman: Books That Joseph -3,500 years ago - was the first to request the prayers of his deceased mother, Rachel, is described in a footnote of the Tanach.

• The Tomb of Rachel
  [*]Rachel’s Tomb: The Bible vs. Tradition
  [*]
• Rachel's Tomb :: Jewish Media Resources
• Rachel Weeping: Jews, Christians, and Muslims at the Fortress Tomb

Prayers are also requested of the other matriarchs and patriarchs..and on the issue, it is with this context that many early Jewish believers had no issue with prayers unto Mary before Lord Jesus. Just as Rachel is the mother of the Jews, though literally the mother of Joseph, the use of the term "queen" for Mary is also a reference to her Son Jesus Christ as "King". Of course, the kingship of Christ is not in the worldly sense, as He does not act like worldly rulers (see the passages where Christ describes this). Rachel was for sometime a sort of "symbol" of Israel (in part because of her intercession, recorded in Jeremiah). For Mary to be both a particular person and a "symbol" of the whole has precedent (as her life also parallels, as well).

__________________

If you search the scriptures, it can be noted that there is no mention condemning this contemporary (and ancient) practice of asking for Rachel's intercession. Granted, the context of "Rachael weeping for her children" (as seen in Mt. 2:18 and Jer. 31:15.) is used differently in the NT, but this does not negate the older witness or the contemporary practice; it adds an interpretation but does not subtract. Asking for intercessions was and is common in Judaism, and contemporary with the ministry of Christ and the writing of the NT. This practice is not condemned in the NT. There is not a teaching from Christ or the apostles against this common contemporary practice and belief.

God Himself tells Jeremiah about (the dead) Rachels' prayer, and His answer to her. How could the dead be unaware, yet in Jeremiah 31, (the dead) Rachel know's of her people's (children's) exile. As I have mentioned before, Jeremiah (31) records that Rachel was not only conscious after her death, but indeed knew of the Jewish exile, pleaded with God on the behalf of the Jews, and God answered her prayer...

 

[bbbbbbb]

Suplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos and Evervirgin Mary (in english) - YouTube

As interesting as this is, I think you should also post the lyrics for us, if possible, assuming that they will not derail this thread into a different discussion about this hymn.

Thank you.

 

[seashale76]

As interesting as this is, I think you should also post the lyrics for us, if possible, assuming that they will not derail this thread into a different discussion about this hymn.

Thank you.

This entire thread is about the hymn I posted, more or less, and the lyrics were mostly already posted. However, here is the Paraklesis service:

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/chant/paraklesis/index_html

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It is neither blasphemous nor heretical because it is a prise and an appeal to Mary the mother of our Lord and it is not based on Mary's own merits but on the graces given to her by God in union with Jesus Christ her son. God is the source of all the graces that a Christian receives and if the conduit through which a particular grace comes is Blessed Mary that is all to the praise of God.

Mary being appealed to is no more blasphemous than noting that all are connected together via Father Abraham and the Patriarchs (Romans 4:16, Romans 11:28)

There are other places which I'm glad for that are helping others in the Protestant world realize the importance of Mary:

• Response to W. Bradford Littlejohn’s “Honouring Mary as Protestants” | Orthodox-Reformed Bridge

• Why Evangelicals Need Mary | Orthodox-Reformed Bridge

And on the hymn itself, it is truly beautiful ( Small Paraklesis to the Most Holy Theotokos )

Coptic Orthodox Hymn: The Virgin M.A.R.Y العدرا م ر ي م (English Subtitles) - YouTube

Foreshadow of the Theotokos in the Old Testament - Manna Nikshepita Cheppum - YouTube

Orthodoxy 101 - The Virgin Mary and the Saints - YouTube

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This entire thread is about the hymn I posted, more or less, and the lyrics were mostly already posted. However, here is the Paraklesis service:

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/chant/paraklesis/index_html

Interesting that particular greek word is used only 2 times in the Gospels, both in Luke .....

Sounds similar to the Protestant "altar call"........

Greek Lexicon :: G3874 (KJV)

Luk 2:25
And, behold! there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout,
waiting for the consolation G3874 of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your confort. G3874

3874. paraklesis par-ak'-lay-sis from 3870; imploration, hortation, solace:--comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty.
3844. para par-ah' a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively),
2821. klesis klay'-sis from a shorter form of 2564; an invitation (figuratively):--calling.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Interesting that particular greek word is used only 2 times in the Gospels, both in Luke .....

Sounds similar to the Protestant "altar call"........

Greek Lexicon :: G3874 (KJV)

Luk 2:25
And, behold! there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout,
waiting for the consolation G3874 of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your confort. G3874

3874. paraklesis par-ak'-lay-sis from 3870; imploration, hortation, solace:--comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty.
3844. para par-ah' a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively),
2821. klesis klay'-sis from a shorter form of 2564; an invitation (figuratively):--calling.

Romans 15:5 also

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Interesting that particular greek word is used only 2 times in the Gospels, both in Luke .....

​

Romans 15:5 also

I guess I should have been more clear.
Out of the 29 times that word is used in the NT, it is used only 2 times in the Gospels....mea culpa....

Greek Lexicon :: G3874 (KJV)
Strong's Number G3874 matches the Greek παράκλησις (paraklēsis),
which occurs 29 times in 28 verses in the Greek concordance



.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I guess I should have been more clear.
Out of the 29 times that word is used in the NT, it is used only 2 times in the Gospels....mea culpa....

Greek Lexicon :: G3874 (KJV)
Strong's Number G3874 matches the Greek παράκλησις (paraklēsis),
which occurs 29 times in 28 verses in the Greek concordance



.

I noticed that just after I posted

 

[MoreCoffee]

When a doctor saves us from some illness it does not detract from the glory of God either in reality or in our mind. It is similar when one appeals to Mary to save us by her intercession with God on our behalf. The doctor intercedes by means of skills, medicines, and surgery and Mary intercedes for us by means of prayer, holiness, and her God given position.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This entire thread is about the hymn I posted, more or less, and the lyrics were mostly already posted. However, here is the Paraklesis service:

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/chant/paraklesis/index_html

Thank you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

When a doctor saves us from some illness it does not detract from the glory of God either in reality or in our mind. It is similar when one appeals to Mary to save us by her intercession with God on our behalf. The doctor intercedes by means of skills, medicines, and surgery and Mary intercedes for us by means of prayer, holiness, and her God given position.

However, after I recover from the illness I do not go to an altar dedicated to my doctor, light a candle, make an offering, and kneel before a statue of my doctor and offer prayers of thanksgiving to the statue.

 

[VolRaider]

I've never understood the hypersensitivity to Mary and the saints interceding on our behalf. Maybe it's some sort of Anglo-Catholicism imbedded inside me. My problem was simply seeing the line that seems to indicate Mary saves. Mary might intercede on our behalf, but she is not the one that saves. Am I making too much out of it? Maybe. But I'm just stating what the line looks like.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Again, that would simply be a wording concern. The Liturgy does saves By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us.

We can't say that what it states isn't to be taken at face value only because there is some wording elsewhere, such as in the liturgy, that is different.

We know that Christ is the only one who can save us, we all know that. I'm sure my fellow Orthodox Christians can agree with me that when we look at the hymn and see lines like the one in question

My apologies for shortening your posts a bit. But I do think this is a very valid point.

Someone who knows the liturgical calendar better than I could give you a better idea, and this is going to vary by Church as well. But ...

How often in a year do we hear this hymn? If it if for the special services at the Dormition, our Church would have included it 5 times, if you went to every single service.

By contrast, do you know how often we hear "By the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us"? It is sung 3 times at every Divine Liturgy, which would mean about 153 times a year, if you only went to the Sunday services? Add the feast days and other services - at our Church, you would have about another 60 times?

So if we go to every service, we're hearing one version 5 times, the other over 200.

It doesn't just appear in another form "somewhere else" ... it appears in the longer form multiple times in nearly every service, and that does not include the even longer prayers that also happen every service, several times, which would push it up to well over 400 times in a year.

Seriously, it's enough to make an impression, if you are Orthodox. You know what the hymn means. There is no confusion, except perhaps for those who visit or have just come into the Church - or those who read it on an internet forum.

 

[Albion]

My apologies for shortening your posts a bit. But I do think this is a very valid point.

Someone who knows the liturgical calendar better than I could give you a better idea, and this is going to vary by Church as well. But ...

How often in a year do we hear this hymn? If it if for the special services at the Dormition, our Church would have included it 5 times, if you went to every single service.

IMO, that doesn't change anything.

First, I don't recall anyone making the point that false doctrine becomes wrong depending upon how often it is used, spoken, printed, or whatever.

Second, the defenders of the sentiments expressed in this hymn unflinchingly supported them. You are the only one to have added a "yes, but...." So we know that the wording does indeed reflect the thinking of those Christians and their churches, and that there is no mistake being made about that.

 

[George95]

However, after I recover from the illness I do not go to an altar dedicated to my doctor, light a candle, make an offering, and kneel before a statue of my doctor and offer prayers of thanksgiving to the statue.

Where does kneeling before a statue come into this? Orthodox Christians don't do that.

 

[Albion]

Where does kneeling before a statue come into this? Orthodox Christians don't do that.

True, but they bow and kiss the icons, so they engage in some of the practices associated with Hagiolatry while Western Catholics do some of the other things that were mentioned. I think he was throwing out a few examples and, also, he was answering a Roman Catholic poster.

 

[~Anastasia~]

IMO, that doesn't change anything.

First, I don't recall anyone making the point that false doctrine becomes wrong depending upon how often it is used, spoken, printed, or whatever.

Second, the defenders of the sentiments expressed in this hymn unflinchingly supported them. You are the only one to have added a "yes, but...." So we know that the wording does indeed reflect the thinking of those Christians and their churches, and that there is no mistake being made about that.

So your take-away from this is that you believe the Orthodox do in fact believe that Mary saves them? Or can save them?

I can pretty much assure you that's not true, but I also know my assurance won't mean anything.

I think most of the Orthodox are simply not interested in any attempt to defend what will undoubtedly be misunderstood by those whose beliefs and practices are very different.

And for their own reasons, I have questioned my efforts here. They are possibly misguided, from an Orthodox point of view. But then I've gotten used to discussing things in this way, and it has been a useful exercise for me to think about both sides of the question. (It's easy enough to remember how it looks from a Protestant standpoint though.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Where does kneeling before a statue come into this? Orthodox Christians don't do that.

No, but statements like that make for so much more drama.

I'm also not aware of "making an offering" to a statue, which to me sounds even more problematic!

 

[George95]

True, but they bow and kiss the icons, so they engage in some of the practices associated with Hagiolatry while Western Catholics do some of the other things that were mentioned. I think he was throwing out a few examples and, also, he was answering a Roman Catholic poster.

Which would be venerating or honoring.