Hymns like this?

[concretecamper]

If I pulled someone out from a horrible car caccident and took them to the hospital and the doctors saved their life, could you say I saved their life? Of course you could. The only thing Mary does is lead us to her Son...who saves us. Given the above example, we can absolutely say Mary saves.

 

[Knee V]

The Incarnation happened.

The Divine Logos has a body.

Those members of the body participate with the Head.

This is the historic christian faith. We all participate in Christ's salvation of the world. That this works out in space and time where the rubber meets the road should be no scandal to anyone who professes Christ. Mary and all the saints participate with Christ in the salvation of the world. Our hymns celebrate the fact that "God is wondrous in His saints."

Understand our hymns in that context, or understand that you don't understand them. And if you understand that you don't understand them, then do the intellectually honest thing and go on your way.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

..........

This is Rich Mullins and his song Creed


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTop7pzqcM

My favorite worship artist and a wonderful song

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The lyrics to the hymn in this post are the most inspirational I have ever heard

http://www.christianforums.com/t5235451-27/#post65864785

 

[bbbbbbb]

As in another version of the hymn?

Yes, please.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Incarnation happened.

The Divine Logos has a body.

Those members of the body participate with the Head.

This is the historic christian faith. We all participate in Christ's salvation of the world. That this works out in space and time where the rubber meets the road should be no scandal to anyone who professes Christ. Mary and all the saints participate with Christ in the salvation of the world. Our hymns celebrate the fact that "God is wondrous in His saints."

Understand our hymns in that context, or understand that you don't understand them. And if you understand that you don't understand them, then do the intellectually honest thing and go on your way.

I understand your thinking. However, I am not aware of anyone asking another person to save them, spiritually, other than asking deceased saints, especially Mary, to do so.

In fact, when Cornelius first met Peter in Acts 10 he bowed down to him. Peter, however, corrected him, informing him that he was just a man, too, and then preached the gospel to him and his household.

 

[George95]

Yes, please.

Well, the Small Paraklesis is where the hymn is from, so even with another version, I wouldn't expect any drastic wording changes.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, the Small Paraklesis is where the hymn is from, so even with another version, I wouldn't expect any drastic wording changes.

Thank you. That is pretty much what I expected to hear, which leaves us with the initial conundrum.

 

[George95]

Thank you. That is pretty much what I expected to hear, which leaves us with the initial conundrum.

I actually just placed an order for a Prayerbook which happens to have this hymn in it, so once I receive it, I'll check it out.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you. That is pretty much what I expected to hear, which leaves us with the initial conundrum.

You're asking for a different wording in that particular hymn. The words don't change much (very slightly from one translation to another that I have seen) - and I believe that is a strength of the Orthodox Church.

But in this thread earlier I provided other examples.

In every Divine Liturgy, after we hear "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" we hear "By the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us" (and this one is repeated three times).

Later in the Liturgy, we hear:

"All-Merciful Master, Lord Jesus Christ our God, through the intercessions of our all-pure Lady, Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary; by the power of the precious and life-giving Cross; through the protection of the honorable, bodiless powers of the heavens; by the supplications of the honorable, glorious, prophet, forerunner, and baptist John; of the holy, glorious, and all-praiseworthy Apostles; of the holy, glorious and victorious martyrs; of our venerable and God-bearing fathers; of (of the Saint of the church); of the holy and righteous ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna; of Saint(s) (of the day) whose memory we celebrate; and of all Your saints ... "


It is worded differently in different places - the first two are part of a hymn, and I suspect they were originally written because of how they fit. At least that's how music is generally arranged.

The third is a prayer.

Knee-V made the best point, imo. We simply know and understand what it means. It is within a context.

Pulling one line out of one hymn and condemning a Church, while stopping one's ears and closing one's eyes to avoid acknowledging how it is really used and understood ... is not an honest handling of the subject.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I understand your thinking. However, I am not aware of anyone asking another person to save them, spiritually, other than asking deceased saints, especially Mary, to do so.

In fact, when Cornelius first met Peter in Acts 10 he bowed down to him. Peter, however, corrected him, informing him that he was just a man, too, and then preached the gospel to him and his household.

Rather than someone asking, maybe you'd like Scriptures?

Paul claimed that he had "become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some" (1 Cor 9:22)

Or James 5:19 - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death.

Rom 11:14 - if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Or Jude - And have mercy on some, who are doubting; save others, snatching them out of the fire.

1 Cor 7:16 - For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

Paul did not "save" anyone, nor did the believers who these instructions went to. But we understand what is meant by these Scriptures, and don't lay charges upon the writers of Scripture.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Paul also claimed to be father of many, many times

just a fact ..... slinks out ..... another thread I guess

 

[Knee V]

I understand your thinking. However, I am not aware of anyone asking another person to save them, spiritually, other than asking deceased saints, especially Mary, to do so.

In fact, when Cornelius first met Peter in Acts 10 he bowed down to him. Peter, however, corrected him, informing him that he was just a man, too, and then preached the gospel to him and his household.

And in other passages we see that other people "save" other people (e.g., Paul), and that *we* "save" other people (e.g., James). Thus, scripturally, there is a sense in which it is only appropriate to say that God saves us, and there is another sense in which it is appropriate to say that humans save other humans. Our hymns and prayers, like the Scriptures, make regular use of both. And when placed in context, we understand the difference.

 

[Albion]

And in other passages we see that other people "save" other people (e.g., Paul), and that *we* "save" other people (e.g., James). Thus, scripturally, there is a sense in which it is only appropriate to say that God saves us, and there is another sense in which it is appropriate to say that humans save other humans. Our hymns and prayers, like the Scriptures, make regular use of both. And when placed in context, we understand the difference.

Even if we agreed to that proposition, there is much, much more in that hymn and in prayers that are similar to it than this lone "save." It's impossible to make the import of this hymn into its opposite.

 

[concretecamper]

And in other passages we see that other people "save" other people (e.g., Paul), and that *we* "save" other people (e.g., James). Thus, scripturally, there is a sense in which it is only appropriate to say that God saves us, and there is another sense in which it is appropriate to say that humans save other humans. Our hymns and prayers, like the Scriptures, make regular use of both. And when placed in context, we understand the difference.

IOW...when Christ commissioned the Apostle to teach, the object was to save. To be Christian is not a passive experience. We certainly do participate with Him in the building up of His Kingdom.

 

[Albion]

IOW...when Christ commissioned the Apostle to teach, the object was to save.

A dubious theory. It would be more correct to say that the one who saves commissioned them to teach about him.

 

[concretecamper]

A dubious theory. It would be more correct to say that the one who saves commissioned them to teach about him.

The point in teaching people about Him was why?

 

[George95]

Even if we agreed to that proposition, there is much, much more in that hymn and in prayers that are similar to it than this lone "save." It's impossible to make the import of this hymn into its opposite.

What do you mean?

 

[AlexLL]

If I pulled someone out from a horrible car caccident and took them to the hospital and the doctors saved their life, could you say I saved their life? Of course you could. The only thing Mary does is lead us to her Son...who saves us. Given the above example, we can absolutely say Mary saves.

I have always understood it from a different perspective. Using your analogy, I think it would be more appropriate to say that instead of pulling the person out and bringing them to the doctor, you go to the doctor and plead and beg him to both pull him out from the accident, bring him to the doctor, and also save him. You are pleading to the doctor to be the one that saves, but you do no saving of your own.

I believe God is the only Savior and deserves 100% of the glory for saving sinners. When I pray that God will open the hearts of non-believers and they eventually become Christians, I do not say that I saved anyone.

 

[concretecamper]

I have always understood it from a different perspective. Using your analogy, I think it would be more appropriate to say that instead of pulling the person out and bringing them to the doctor, you go to the doctor and plead and beg him to both pull him out from the accident, bring him to the doctor, and also save him. You are pleading to the doctor to be the one that saves, but you do no saving of your own.

I believe God is the only Savior and deserves 100% of the glory for saving sinners. When I pray that God will open the hearts of non-believers and they eventually become Christians, I do not say that I saved anyone.

Even in your example, people could rightly say I helped save that guy's life.

No one is arguing that Jesus deserve 100% of the Glory. So often we are the tools He uses...making us participants.