Hymns like this?

[Albion]

So your take-away from this is that you believe the Orthodox do in fact believe that Mary saves them? Or can save them?

My take-away is that Orthodox Christians unhesitatingly defend the erroneous doctrines stated in that hymn.

I think most of the Orthodox are simply not interested in any attempt to defend what will undoubtedly be misunderstood by those whose beliefs and practices are very different.

Except that they did go to great lengths to try to find some way TO defend them to us.

 

[George95]

My take-away is that Orthodox Christians unhesitatingly defend the erroneous doctrines stated in that hymn.


Except that they did go to great lengths to try to find some way TO defend them to us.

Well isn't that what GT is all about in some cases?

 

[Albion]

Well isn't that what GT is all about in some cases?

Sure. I assumed that the folks here whose churches are known for elaborate veneration of the saints would defend the practice. And so they did.

The post you are replying to, however, was addressed to Kylissa who said that Orthodox Christians wouldn't feel any obligation to do it--even though they did just that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Except that they did go to great lengths to try to find some way TO defend them to us.

No, they did not. For the most part, you might notice they are conspicuously absent.

I think the OP and myself are the main Orthodox posting (and I'm not even officially Orthodox), with a few helpful insertions from a couple of others. I haven't counted, but I think we have more posts by Catholics than Orthodox here (especially if you don't count the OP since it's George's thread, and myself).

As I said, for myself, it was more a helpful exercise.

 

[George95]

Sure. I assumed that the folks here whose churches are known for elaborate veneration of the saints would defend the practice. And so they did.

The post you are replying to, however, was addressed to Kylissa who said that Orthodox Christians wouldn't feel any obligation to do it--even though they did just that.

Define elaborate? Let's not get crazy off topic now.

Well, this is one of the topics that proves to be a bit heated regarding the Orthodox Church, so it's expected to see us defending.

 

[~Anastasia~]

No, they did not. For the most part, you might notice they are conspicuously absent.

I think the OP and myself are the main Orthodox posting (and I'm not even officially Orthodox), with a few helpful insertions from a couple of others. I haven't counted, but I think we have more posts by Catholics than Orthodox here (especially if you don't count the OP since it's George's thread, and myself).

As I said, for myself, it was more a helpful exercise.

OK, I retract that. I had forgotten MamaK and Nik0s had posted. My apologies. I have not slept much in 3 days and my memory does not go that far back. I had remembered only Knee-V really defending.

But ... I still say that you don't see the Orthodox striving mightily to defend this. Myself and George are doing most of the posting from that POV.

 

[Albion]

Define elaborate?

I chose that word in order not to sound judgmental. Surely you know what "elaborate veneration" refers to. Of course you do since we've just been discussing examples of it.

Well, this is one of the topics that proves to be a bit heated regarding the Orthodox Church, so it's expected to see us defending.

Exactly what I said.

 

[topcare]

Most Holy Theotokos, save us! - YouTube

 

[George95]

Most Holy Theotokos, save us! - YouTube

I can't understand that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

However, after I recover from the illness I do not go to an altar dedicated to my doctor, light a candle, make an offering, and kneel before a statue of my doctor and offer prayers of thanksgiving to the statue.

But you do pay your doctor and you thank him for his life saving work and you very likely tell others about what he did for you. Yet God is not diminished by any of that. In the same way when a Christian has been saved from some peril or temptation or some other thing after asking Blessed Mary to intercede for them they quite naturally thank Mary for her intercession, some will give a donation to the church in her name, and they are likely to tell others what Mary's intercession did for them. And God is not diminished by any of that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've never understood the hypersensitivity to Mary and the saints interceding on our behalf. Maybe it's some sort of Anglo-Catholicism imbedded inside me. My problem was simply seeing the line that seems to indicate Mary saves. Mary might intercede on our behalf, but she is not the one that saves. Am I making too much out of it? Maybe. But I'm just stating what the line looks like.

You are making too much of that line. It says no more than that Mary's intercession saved (from whatever was posing a threat). Nobody thinks that Mary is God, everybody knows that whatever comes from asking Mary to save us is ultimately coming from God. God is the source of every good and perfect grace gift. Mary is never the source. Mary may be the conduit through which a grace is given but God is the source. It really is like the doctor example I've given to bbbbbbb.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where does kneeling before a statue come into this? Orthodox Christians don't do that.

Orthodox Christians kneel before icons.

 

[Kristos]

Actually, I don't think there is much to defend here. Taken at face value it could be easily misinterpreted without context, however, I don't know anyone with context who would misinterpret it. The use of save in this context is completely biblical, as already pointed out.

Is it elaborate - yes. Is elaborate wrong? I suppose that's personal opinion, but certainly nothing theologically incorrect.

 

[Noxot]

people only believe what they think is right and good and they go about defending their truth in any way they feel is right according to the truth that they so affirm.

affirming something as truth is already a defense for it.

 

[seashale76]

Orthodox Christians kneel before icons.

Sometimes. During Forgiveness Vespers- some people make prostrations before others- and we all kiss each other too. We also kiss the hands of our priests and bishops. However- we're not worshipping each other or them. Same goes with icons. Thought I should throw that out there. It's more than obvious it needs to be spelled out. (Not arguing with you, MoreCoffee, just piggy-backing onto your post here.)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sometimes. During Forgiveness Vespers- some people make prostrations before others- and we all kiss each other too. We also kiss the hands of our priests and bishops. However- we're not worshipping each other or them. Same goes with icons. Thought I should throw that out there. It's more than obvious it needs to be spelled out. (Not arguing with you, MoreCoffee, just piggy-backing onto your post here.)

You and I know it is obvious and I think that our interlocutors also know it but for some reason some of them want to pretend that bowing, kneeling, kissing, praying to, and so forth means that we worship them as God; this is one of the absurdities of discussions in GT.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It is neither blasphemous nor heretical because it is a prise and an appeal to Mary the mother of our Lord and it is not based on Mary's own merits but on the graces given to her by God in union with Jesus Christ her son. God is the source of all the graces that a Christian receives and if the conduit through which a particular grace comes is Blessed Mary that is all to the praise of God.

And that makes it OK to ask the Theotokos to save us?

 

[MoreCoffee]

When a doctor saves us from some illness it does not detract from the glory of God either in reality or in our mind. It is similar when one appeals to Mary to save us by her intercession with God on our behalf. The doctor intercedes by means of skills, medicines, and surgery and Mary intercedes for us by means of prayer, holiness, and her God given position.

But you do pay your doctor and you thank him for his life saving work and you very likely tell others about what he did for you. Yet God is not diminished by any of that. In the same way when a Christian has been saved from some peril or temptation or some other thing after asking Blessed Mary to intercede for them they quite naturally thank Mary for her intercession, some will give a donation to the church in her name, and they are likely to tell others what Mary's intercession did for them. And God is not diminished by any of that.

You are making too much of that line. It says no more than that Mary's intercession saved (from whatever was posing a threat). Nobody thinks that Mary is God, everybody knows that whatever comes from asking Mary to save us is ultimately coming from God. God is the source of every good and perfect grace gift. Mary is never the source. Mary may be the conduit through which a grace is given but God is the source. It really is like the doctor example I've given to bbbbbbb.

And that makes it OK to ask the Theotokos to save us?

I included two extra posts in the quotes above hoping that the argument advanced in them may help to clarify and explain what the ancient churches teach.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

And that makes it OK to ask the Theotokos to save us?

I think it depends on how you view salvation as a whole. If you believe you atr saved (past tense) there would be little use in even asking God the to save you after you do it once.
If you believe you are being saved daily, you ask many to pray for you. Most of my request ( in prayer) are asking for guidance so I might work out my salvation daily in hopes I get closer to God.

So yes I see prayers for me as saving me as I believe God answers prayers of this nature. Christ is my Salvation. My prayers (both those I pray and those prayed for me ) are salvation based.

If I'm in depression and someone prays for me, God answers by bringing me back into my joy. I was saved from depression by God through the prayer. If we really think we have no part in the salvation of mankind, why do we share the gospel?

 

[AlexLL]

I think it depends on how you view salvation as a whole. If you believe you atr saved (past tense) there would be little use in even asking God the to save you after you do it once.
If you believe you are being saved daily, you ask many to pray for you. Most of my request ( in prayer) are asking for guidance so I might work out my salvation daily in hopes I get closer to God.

So yes I see prayers for me as saving me as I believe God answers prayers of this nature. Christ is my Salvation. My prayers (both those I pray and those prayed for me ) are salvation based.

If I'm in depression and someone prays for me, God answers by bringing me back into my joy. I was saved from depression by God through the prayer. If we really think we have no part in the salvation of mankind, why do we share the gospel?

So If I pray for you, shouldn't I also have hymns sung about me during worship services? Should people sing about me saving them?