Hymns like this?

[Gxg (G²)]

I can see where the whole "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" can be controversial, but I'll add this:

Obviously Christ is the only one who can save us. In the Liturgy, you will hear the request of the Theotokos to intercede for us, and I'd say the same would apply to the statement above. Now of course, I probably wouldn't use that wording, but besides that, it's merely the wording with a different meaning.

as soon as we hear "Theotokos, save us" it is immediately followed in the Divine Liturgy by "Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us." (Not only that, but this part is repeated 3 times.)

The first thing anyone needs to understand is that in the Orthodox Church, there is a profound understanding that salvation comes through Christ and Christ alone … were it not for Him trampling down and defeating death, how could anyone have eternal life?

I didn't mean to be argumentative against you. The fact is that of all the things that Protestants are likely to have trouble with in an Orthodox Church, those relating to the Theotokos are probably going to be the most difficult to resolve, and the most difficult to understand. I've heard it suggested more than once not to even try to explain theology relating to the Theotokos to visitors or in any kind of outreach. There really are fairly simple explanations, but most people won't accept them right off. I know that I didn't accept them "just because" someone said so.

And still, LOL, I am tempted to at least try to explain. To people reading here who probably in some cases have already decided not to understand or accept, so what would be the point?

Part of it involves the encompassing love that is a large part of the Orthodox mindset, as I've experienced it. We really do love one another. It's like the saints of the Church - accepting them as beloved family, just as so many in my own Church have become beloved family to me. Think about it, if Mary really was your own mother, and alive, wouldn't you ask her to pray for you? Wouldn't you run to her for help when you had spiritual problems? And of course, we do believe that those who have died are living. And if Mary is the Mother of Christ, who is the Head of the Church, then she is in a sense a spiritual mother available to us all, just as we might be blessed to choose a wise woman from our own congregation to fulfill that role for us.

And if it's the word "save" that's a problem …

what was Paul saying when he claimed that he had "become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some"? (1 Cor 9:22) Did Paul "save" anyone?

Or James 5:19 - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death.

Rom 11:14 - if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Or Jude - And have mercy on some, who are doubting; save others, snatching them out of the fire.

1 Cor 7:16 - For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

Paul did not "save" anyone, nor did the believers who these instructions went to. Once again, we simply know it is Christ who saves, so we don't assign any meaning to these Scriptures that are not intended. But prejudices exist, and misunderstandings are widespread, so it is reasonable that people are "on their guard" … and can be quick to assign a meaning to "Theotokos save us" that is not intended.

Thank you both for sharing as you did - as I think that sums up much of the controversy that many do not seem able to handle on the matter. Christ ultimately saves us, even though he uses others as instruments of that process - and just as others are people whom we ask for prayer and note how thankful they are that Christ used them to help rescue us, so it is with Mary. We know Christ is the one whom salvation comes from - and all things are interpreted through that background. We know the Apostles and the Bishops they appointed never condemned people who asked Mary for intercession (as they already knew Christ was the one whom salvation was found in - even as he uses people) - nor was it wrong to note where the saints are all interceeding for us and we can ask them for prayer, knowing their prayers are simply going to Christ.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, but wasn't it Gxg to whom you posed that question, not me??

Yes, it was Gxg to whom I posed the question. Apparently he is a sock puppet for George.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No one said I was the same individual as the author of the OP. What was noted directly was that what I had said on the matter was exactly what he (as well as others) already said to you earlier - that you have little basis reading into a hymn without dealing with how the language was understood in that era....or placing your own definitions into it and accusing others of worshiping Mary.

And as it is, your question of "Do you believe in Mary for salvation" was a silly one to begin with since it shows where you don't read what others already said. When others already stated they trusted in Christ for salvation, it is redundant to ask "Do you trust in Mary for Salvation?" - just as it's silly for one to ask "Do you trust in your church members for salvation?" when asking them for prayer. Your question was already answered in S in other places - noted in #193 - and if you keep asking the question of others, it's dangerous ground since it's against the rules to question the salvation of others who trust in Christ.

The Church noting where Mary has been in an intercessory role in the Heavens (as the other saints) is not the same as saying she gives eternal salvation to mankind - and thus, deciding that the Church advocated that and then resisting it would be a false argument. or it'd be an action done in avoiding what the Church said on the matter. St. John of Damascus was one of the great church fathers and there are already 3 sermons of his on the Dormition of the Theotokos are on record:

• Monachos.net - John of Damascus, Homily 1 on the Dormition of the Theotokos

One does not speak on what the Church is wrong on when they are already unaware of what the Church was about - or not able to show where their OWN stance is solely how Christ/the Church saw things. And I've yet to see where either you or others ever had a dominant view in the Church - it is essentially one individual claiming everyone else (but him and those agreeing) is right on God's Word after thousands of years....and that's how cults get started.

Attributing aspects to Mary that are supernatural is not the same as saying she has the same place as God. Saints teleported (even though Christ was the FIRST to do so in being able to transcend physical boundaries) - Saints traveled in time....saints did many other things besides that which others felt were God's alone - but they only did so because of being connected into God. It's the same with Mary.

And if you really were consistent in protest, I ask again - how is it that you avoid where the Apostles were in the place of God for being given power to forgive sins by Christ when Jesus said (John 20:21-22) even though it was said of Jesus "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:7 and Luke 5:21)? More was shared on that elsewhere in the thread entitled What sin leads unto death? Can we pray for others to be forgiven?

Nonetheless, your Church's doctrines do not matter when trying to use scriptures that were never developed IN your church - they were developed in the Church you disagree with, with them being seen within the context of the Church you do not adhere to.

And thus, you are trying to use scriptures that never came from you and yet trying to tell others whom the scriptures came from on how to see it - thus making your doctrines on the same level as what many have done in the cults.

Various church men with differing opinions on certain issues was never the same as it concerns where there was both DOGMA and CONSENSUS with regards to Church Practices. This is where the Church Councils come in and the consistent practices of the Early Church - and from Athanasisus to Origen, Tertullian and multiple others, they ALL had no issue (Bishops included) with having hymns dedicated to celebrating Mary/asking her for prayer - just as they all had no issue with the concepts of Real Presence when it came to the Eucharist. which was celebrated

Anyone picking and choosing doesn't understand the concept of the Church Councils or Church practice - and that's a basic when it comes to understanding the reality of tradition. But as it is, whether it be with Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East or Catholic, across differing traditions to the early church there has been consistent consensus when it comes to the celebration of Mary - and the approval of hymns such as what the OP talked on.

Early venerations to Mary can be seen on the catacombs of the early Christian martyrs as early as the 1st century - with there being depictions of Mary with the Divien Son of Christ.

​

St. Irenaeus of Lyon who was a great defender of Christian orthodoxy established Mary as the New Eve who participates with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation, becoming through her obedience the "cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race"..and he also noted that she was an "Advocate," or interceding helper, for Eve and for her salvation. In addition to that, Gregory Thaumaturgis depicted Mary interceding for those on earth from her position in Heaven. St. Ephraem directly addressed the Blessed Virgin in several Marian sermons - with it also being the case that direct prayer to Mary is also found in a sermon of St. Gregory Nazianzen (330-389). We can also see that by the last part of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth, we have numerous explicit examples of direct prayer to the Mother of God, for example in the writings of St. Ambrose, as well as by St. Epiphanius. There are many more besides that when it comes to seeing and dealing with the actual practices of the Early Church..

As said before,
According to St. Irenaeus, the Blessed Virgin helped in the process of our salvation:


For that, she will always be honored - but that has little to do with assuming she's on the same level as Christ.

As other Orthodox have noted:

Orthodox believe that the Virgin Mary needed to be redeemed from sin with the rest of mankind and that Redemption comes solely through the Sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross, that is through God. The work of Redemption cannot in any way be that of a creature but solely comes from the Creator.

....I don't think the Blessed Virgin Mary would appreciate her being elevated to the same or close to the level of her Son. I'm sure she is more humble than that even in heaven. She plays a pivotal role in asking our Lord to bestow graces but bestowing graces of her own accord - I don't think so. I do think she can influence her Son though (witnessed the changing of water to wine at Canaan.) Can she dispense grace? Not without the Son. Does she dispense grace. I'm sure that with the Son she may have.​

Ad-hominem (specifically, argument via emotion) does little to actually address the Word of God for what it says. No one said they were concerned with what does or doesn't pass muster with you - seeing that the Word of God was not ever in focus to begin with when you did You've already done the same thing Mormons do when claiming anything historically verified that counters them is not dealing with scripture - and then making arguments claiming they will not be swayed.

Truth is Truth - facts are facts - and those concerned on the matter will address them. Those who don't will not - and then tend to find any type of argument they can throw against it, like assuming that pointing out the historical background of a text is the same as just throwing out "scholarship" (red-herring). By your logic, you already sought to do the same technique you tried to inconsistently argue against the moment you spoke on "The Word of God" - trying to accuse others on what it says and trying to reference. What's good for the goose is good for the gander....

But regardless, no one cares whether or not you feel swayed since you already avoided the sway of scripture in favor of rhetoric claiming to love God's Word. Anything that has been written is done solely for lurkers/others wishing to deal with the facts and not just opinions - and claiming "Well, I believe scripture doesn't support that!!!" or trying a high-card move of claiming anyone disagreeing with you as disagreeing with Scripture is not the same as dealing with SCRIPTURE - period. Others, from TAW to GT to the Apostolic Section and elsewhere, have noted the same things being pointed out here - and thus, the arguments you offer won't go anywhere just as it is with arguing against what God's Word has always said.[/quote]

Wow! All this in order to evade a direct question. Now that we know you are not George or his sock puppet, the question remains - Are you trusting Mary to save you?

I know what others have said on the topic, but I want to know your personal answer.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you both for sharing as you did - as I think that sums up much of the controversy that many do not seem able to handle on the matter. Christ ultimately saves us, even though he uses others as instruments of that process - and just as others are people whom we ask for prayer and note how thankful they are that Christ used them to help rescue us, so it is with Mary. We know Christ is the one whom salvation comes from - and all things are interpreted through that background. We know the Apostles and the Bishops they appointed never condemned people who asked Mary for intercession (as they already knew Christ was the one whom salvation was found in - even as he uses people) - nor was it wrong to note where the saints are all interceeding for us and we can ask them for prayer, knowing their prayers are simply going to Christ.

Okay, I will attempt to make this as plain as I can. I have not asked you or anyone else on this thread if they have asked Mary to intercede for them. I am asking you, however, if you are trusting Mary to save you - not to intercede with God for your salvation, but to save you herself.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Wow! All this in order to evade a direct question. Now that we know you are not George or his sock puppet, the question remains - Are you trusting Mary to save you?

I know what others have said on the topic, but I want to know your personal answer.

Sadly, all of this demonstrating you have not dealt with on what others already said plainly when it came to noting where Mary was never trusted for salvation - for asking loaded questions (or begging the question) is never a matter of getting accuracy...and it happens when people tend to speak without actually listening first. I already gave you my personal answer - you avoided it and continue to do so. That will not suffice in any manner. And as I already noted my personal thoughts on the matter earlier - as seen in #193 - That was all in agreement with others who spoke on the issue - some of whom called you out when you attempted the same questions of them you tried with me:

Beyond the previously discussed appeal to Mary for salvation, there is the evident prayers to her which are intermingled with prayers to the three members of the Trinity. I note that the prayers to Mary are not prayers for her intercession with God, but direct prayers for her to answer. She is thus accorded an equal place with the members of the Trinity in her ability to bestow these varied things.

Both members of the EO and the RCC take great pains to inform us that prayers to Mary and the saints are merely requests for them to intercede with God. This hymn reveals the patent falsehood of such claims as it accords Mary powers which God alone possesses.

I'm going to disagree with you on that. Me personally, I know that Christ is the only one who can save us, and as I stated before, I know that those hymns and the wording carry a different meaning. Certainly you've asked someone to help you with something or intercede on your behalf. The hymn is simply stating her to intercede while Her Son saves us.

The Theotokos does nothing through her own power, but like all the saints she intercedes for us. As the mother of our Lord, the most holy Theotokos is the benchmark we should all strive for in life. To be Holy, Humble and righteous.

The Divine Liturgy in our Church lasts for a couple of hours, and during the entire time we are hearing hymns, Scripture being read, and prayers. The whole body fits together to make a very strong message.

I doubt you can find an Orthodox who comes away with the idea that we ask Mary to do the saving. "Theotokos save us" is a very abbreviated form.

As I said, it is followed by "By the prayers/intercession of the Theotokos, Savior save us".

There is also a point where we pray a longer form ...

"All-Merciful Master, Lord Jesus Christ our God, through the intercessions of our all-pure Lady, Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary; by the power of the precious and life-giving Cross; through the protection of the honorable, bodiless powers of the heavens; by the supplications of the honorable, glorious, prophet, forerunner, and baptist John; of the holy, glorious, and all-praiseworthy Apostles; of the holy, glorious and victorious martyrs; of our venerable and God-bearing fathers; of (of the Saint of the church); of the holy and righteous ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna; of Saint(s) (of the day) whose memory we celebrate; and of all Your saints ... "

But again, we are not asking directly from any of those invoked, but from the Lord Jesus Christ if you read the opening of the prayer. nd as others have said already:

Have you placed your faith in Mary to the point that you have asked her to grant you salvation?

Of course not. I feel that you're taking a simple wording concern and running with it to the point to where it sounds like we place Mary in the place of Jesus.

​

Kylissa has noted it. George95 has noted it. Nik0s has noted it - and several others. All of whom I agree with. Asking Mary for prayer (in the same way that you ask your neighbor for prayer) doesn't mean that one is worshiping Mary - we pray prayers at our church where the hymns celebrate Mary, but that does not mean she is whom our salvation comes from.

One either acknowledges that - or they simply have chosen to not listen. Either way, it doesn't really matter, as the facts are the facts and the Early Church (as I've already noted) has spoken on the issue on showing where language was understood for Mary and the saints to be in differing supernatural positions they weren't in before - with God granting them abilities they didn't have on earth before they were glorified (Theosis) so that they can pray for us as they look to Christ.

And as said before, if you really wanted to be consistent in protest or claiming the Word was to be the focus, I ask again - how is it that you avoid where the Apostles were in the place of God for being given power to forgive sins by Christ when Jesus said (John 20:21-22) even though it was said of Jesus "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:7 and Luke 5:21)? More was shared on that elsewhere in the thread entitled What sin leads unto death? Can we pray for others to be forgiven?..but you've again avoided it while insisting others do not trust in Christ for salvation - even after they have noted that they did so.

As it is, if you keep it up with the questioning of others salvation (as they already noted where they trusted in Christ for salvation), it'll fall under the grounds of needing to be reported (as it's strictly against the rules - for Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian is not allowed ). It'd be best to actually deal with what others have said rather than continue with the inaccurate claims, Bruh.

Okay, I will attempt to make this as plain as I can. I have not asked you or anyone else on this thread if they have asked Mary to intercede for them. I am asking you, however, if you are trusting Mary to save you - not to intercede with God for your salvation, but to save you herself.

You already made yourself plain earlier, with others (including myself ) addressing it when it came to noting that asking Mary to intercede for them (or the saints - or people alive TODAY at church) is not a matter of looking to others for salvation or believing they themselves do the job by themselves (as that's not what intercession/being asked for prayer is about). Others in Orthodoxy (or Catholics circles) have said the same thing - and if really wanting to know what others thought on it, one could have done their own research to see what they have said. One basic on how what is said here has been said throughout the Orthodox Church, addressing the same questions you already had:

• Q &amp A - Mary / Prayer / Death - Orthodox Church in America

This has been noted several times now - as intereceding for others is the context of the hymn in the OP and the context of any prayers offered to Mary. And you do not have any right to INSIST that others praying the prayers they do or using the language they do mean something other than what they have already said (in consistency with how terms were defined in the Early Church).

If you didn't respect it the FIRST time I or others noted it, it's obvious that others haven't been direct enough in noting they will plainly not go with arguing past the issues.

Yes, it was Gxg to whom I posed the question. Apparently he is a sock puppet for George.

It's illogical assuming that someone agreeing with another automatically counts as their sock-puppet - but that being said, if you continue with the false accusations of others after they already clarified, it'll be taken to Members Complaint....and if it persists, it will be reported since it's against the rules.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I understand Protestants being perplexed towards devotions like this and pro & con attitudes have run to extremes for generations. I believe a healthy faith is to understand these as praise that enhances our faith in our savior. There are some Christians today who do not even believe that Jesus Christ is God but those of us who have revered His mother have always held the faith in the Lord the Word who became flesh, lived, died on the cross for sins, who descended into hades, was resurrected, ascended & sits at the right hand of the Father.

True.

​

 

[Albion]

I understand Protestants being perplexed towards devotions like this

We here are not perplexed. We have a clear concept of what devotions are appropriate and what others are not. If the defenders of the sentiments expressed in the hymn that started off this discussion were willing to have a frank give and take about the merits of such prayer/praise, we might actually reach some area of agreement.

There are some Christians today who do not even believe that Jesus Christ is God but those of us who have revered His mother have always held the faith in the Lord the Word who became flesh, lived, died on the cross for sins, who descended into hades, was resurrected, ascended & sits at the right hand of the Father.

...and what do you think of Christians who have always held the faith in the Lord, the Word who became flesh, lived, died on the cross for sins, who descended into hades, was resurrected, ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father...but do not believe that conferring Godly power upon any of God's creatures is right to do?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I understand Protestants being perplexed towards devotions like this and pro & con attitudes have run to extremes for generations. I believe a healthy faith is to understand these as praise that enhances our faith in our savior. There are some Christians today who do not even believe that Jesus Christ is God but those of us who have revered His mother have always held the faith in the Lord the Word who became flesh, lived, died on the cross for sins, who descended into hades, was resurrected, ascended & sits at the right hand of the Father.

I think it's hard for many to consider where even Protestants have not been universal in arguing against celebration of Mary or intercession - the Anglicans already do so and there are other Protestant groups who are not up in arms since they understand the reality that honoring others is not the same as looking to them as if they are the Savior or the one who died for us. As said best by the Protestants at Advent IV: The Honor and Humility of Mary | internetmonk.com :

Martin Luther honored Mary highly. He held her in high esteem for her role in God’s salvation plan. The former monk retained beliefs he had from his Roman Catholic upbringing and training, such as Mary’s immaculate conception (though his views on this are complex) and perpetual virginity. He venerated her as the Theotokos (Mother of God), said that Christians should likewise consider her their “spiritual Mother,” and called her the “highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1531). Though he venerated Mary and even conceded that she prays for the church, Luther’s view also offers a protest against the abuses of Catholicism with regard to over-emphasis on Mary. For example, consider these words from The Defense of the Augsburg Confession (1530):

Granting that the blessed Mary prays for the Church, does she receive souls in death, does she conquer death (the great power of Satan), does she quicken? What does Christ do if the blessed Mary does these things? Although she is most worthy of the most ample honors, nevertheless she does not wish to be made equal to Christ, but rather wishes us to consider and follow her example (the example of her faith and her humility).

​

One of Luther’s clearest writings concerning Mary is his Exposition of the Magnificat (1520-21), composed for a young prince who had supported and interceded for him. One aspect of this study that may surprise Protestants is that Luther began his exposition with an invocation to Mary herself:

May the tender Mother of God herself procure for me the spirit of wisdom, profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers, so that your Grace as well as we all may draw therefrom wholesome knowledge and a praiseworthy life, and thus come to chant and sing this Magnificat eternally in heaven. To this may God help us. Amen. ​

Martin Luther's Mariology was very pronounced and hard to ignore - more found within Redefining Mariology: Why Bernard of Clairvaux and Martin Luther Challenge the Ground of the Debate | Chris Esposito-Bernard - Academia.edu - as it concerns the Protestant Reformation and the focus on Scripture, it is interesting to witness where other Protestants already had the same mindsets as others when it came to Mary....

People who had issue with the hymn in the OP would have been more effective if they chose to actually listen to what others were saying instead of reacting based on their own assumptions - but some things take time for full understanding to occur.

Our first Gospel was
Luke 11:27-28 As Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, ‘Happy the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked!’ But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!’

And after the gospel acclimation came the second gospel
Luke 1:39-56
Mary set out and went as quickly as she could to a town in the hill country of Judah. She went into Zechariah’s house and greeted Elizabeth. Now as soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. She gave a loud cry and said, ‘Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord? For the moment your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leapt for joy. Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled.’
And Mary said:
‘My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord
and my spirit exults in God my saviour;
because he has looked upon his lowly handmaid.
Yes, from this day forward all generations will call me blessed,
for the Almighty has done great things for me.
Holy is his name,
and his mercy reaches from age to age for those who fear him.
He has shown the power of his arm,
he has routed the proud of heart.
He has pulled down princes from their thrones and exalted the lowly.
The hungry he has filled with good things, the rich sent empty away.
He has come to the help of Israel his servant, mindful of his mercy
– according to the promise he made to our ancestors –
of his mercy to Abraham and to his descendants for ever.’
Mary stayed with Elizabeth about three months and then went back home.

The Magnificat.wmv - YouTube

When you understand how Christ and God felt about Mary - and what Mary said of herself, it is very easy to see where Christ is kept central even as one sees the ways she was significant

For good reviews on the matter:

• St. Mary in the Orthodox Church - Orthodox Christian Resource Center

• The Holy Virgin Mary in the Syrian Orthodox Church - Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch

Thankful for where the Lord used a Woman and her child to change the fate of the world

​

​

 

[bbbbbbb]

This past Sunday I attended mass at a Catholic cathedral. During the mass a prayer was offered in which Mary and the saints were asked to intercede for those who were praying. Neither Mary nor the saints were asked to save these people. If the Catholics, whose veneration of Mary exceeds that of all other Christian denominations can refrain from addressing Mary in a salvific context, I do not understand why the Orthodox deem it acceptable to pray to Mary, asking her to save them, as the words of the hymn very clearly state.

 

[Albion]

This past Sunday I attended mass at a Catholic cathedral. During the mass a prayer was offered in which Mary and the saints were asked to intercede for those who were praying. Neither Mary nor the saints were asked to save these people. If the Catholics, whose veneration of Mary exceeds that of all other Christian denominations can refrain from addressing Mary in a salvific context, I do not understand why the Orthodox deem it acceptable to pray to Mary, asking her to save them, as the words of the hymn very clearly state.

But they do. Not always in such blatant terms as we saw in that hymn here, but there certainly are prayers which include such language as well as in Roman Catholic literature.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But they do. Not always in such blatant terms as we saw in that hymn here, but there certainly are prayers which include such language as well as in Roman Catholic literature.

I agree entirely. What surprised me about that mass was that the Mariolatry was so subdued, unlike other masses I have attended.

 

[Albion]

I agree entirely. What surprised me about that mass was that the Mariolatry was so subdued, unlike other masses I have attended.

I wasn't entirely surprised, and here's why. The RCC is of two minds when it comes to such things. In the parishes, with corporate worship and parochial schools, there appears to be restraint. There seems to be a determination to hold to what defenders of Marian devotionalism always say is what they do and believe.

BUT when it comes to various church sodalities, unofficial publications, religious orders, the administration of religious shrines, etc. where hyper-spirituality is routine, the church winks at the excesses.

This is not much different from priests who turn a blind eye towards the actions of ordinary church members who flock to see the Virgin Mary appear as a rust stain on a bridge or in a reflection in a plate glass window. The clergy know it's bunk but say it probably helps to strengthen the faith of the laity, etc.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I wasn't entirely surprised, and here's why. The RCC is of two minds when it comes to such things. In the parishes, with corporate worship and parochial schools, there appears to be restraint. There seems to be a determination to hold to what defenders of Marian devotionalism always say is what they do and believe.

BUT when it comes to various church sodalities, unofficial publications, religious orders, the administration of religious shrines, etc. where hyper-spirituality is routine, the church winks at the excesses.

This is not much different from priests who turn a blind eye towards the actions of ordinary church members who flock to see the Virgin Mary appear as a rust stain on a bridge or in a reflection in a plate glass window. The clergy know it's bunk but say it probably helps to strengthen the faith of the laity, etc.

Yes, this is quite true. This reminds me of a young man I saw working out at the local YMCA. He had a large tattoo of the Virgin of Guadalupe on the side of his torso. I broke into ecstasy at the miraculous vision which had been imparted on his torso.

I am perplexed as to why individuals wish to disfigure themselves with tattoos, much less tattoos of religious subjects. Still, as you say, it is probably viewed as strengthening the faith of the individual and displaying it to the world. When it crosses the line into providing protection or good luck, as various medallions such as the now-rejected St. Christopher's medals, there is a serious problem.