Hymns like this?

[Mama Kidogo]

So If I pray for you, shouldn't I also have hymns sung about me during worship services? Should people sing about me saving them?

If your bore Christ, I'd sing about you. We have hymns about the Apostles. hymns about other Saints as well. But the glory is God's.

Many protestant hymns are about self and the wonders we receive from God.

 

[Kristos]

So If I pray for you, shouldn't I also have hymns sung about me during worship services? Should people sing about me saving them?

If?

Misunderstandings abound. This is not a worship service.

Hypothetically the answer would be yes - and why not?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

If?

Misunderstandings abound. This is not a worship service.

Hypothetically the answer would be yes - and why not?

I would certainly hope no one ever sang 'Amazing Grace" There are more Me's, we's and I's in it than any hymn I can think of.


Mario-phobia abounds.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Where does kneeling before a statue come into this? Orthodox Christians don't do that.

Of course I know that. I was responding to a Catholic poster. In Catholicism this is standard practice. In your church icons are used, instead.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If?

Misunderstandings abound. This is not a worship service.

I am still wondering why people have issue with (for lack of a better term and to simplify things) choosing to "give a shout out/pay respects" to Mary for her role in changing the world. No one would trip if we sung "Father Abraham" in services nor would they claim "How dare you focus on Abraham being the patriarch of our faith and note respect to him in song!!!" - so why they do so with Mary I don't know...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by George95

Where does kneeling before a statue come into this? Orthodox Christians don't do that.
​

Of course I know that. I was responding to a Catholic poster. In Catholicism this is standard practice.
In your church icons are used, instead.

The EOC have some very beautiful Icons.
In fact, if you go to the TAW board, they have 3 sticky threads just on Icons.

http://www.christianforums.com/f145/
The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox The forum for Eastern Orthodox churches

Sticky: purchasing icons, the good, the bad and the ugly (

1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)
Hoankan

Sticky: Questions about iconography... (

1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page) Michael G

Sticky: TAW Iconographers (

1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page) ikonographics





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[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON



Moved from General Theology.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[Albion]

I am still wondering why people have issue with (for lack of a better term and to simplify things) choosing to "give a shout out/pay respects" to Mary for her role in changing the world.

Who do you think has such an issue?

I've read a lot here--and posted some of it too--about wrongly attributing
to Mary powers and roles that are God's alone, but having an issue with paying respects (not sure what you mean by that)...no. So, whom did you have in mind?

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, but statements like that make for so much more drama.

I'm also not aware of "making an offering" to a statue, which to me sounds even more problematic!

Apparently you have not been in many Catholic churches. In various Catholic churches there are side altars and sometimes even chapels devoted to various saints and Mary. At these there is an array of candles which can be lit by the petitioner and there is a box to receive offerings, as well.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But you do pay your doctor and you thank him for his life saving work and you very likely tell others about what he did for you. Yet God is not diminished by any of that. In the same way when a Christian has been saved from some peril or temptation or some other thing after asking Blessed Mary to intercede for them they quite naturally thank Mary for her intercession, some will give a donation to the church in her name, and they are likely to tell others what Mary's intercession did for them. And God is not diminished by any of that.

But, I do think that God would be greatly diminished if I knelt down in front of my doctor and prayed to him as I would to God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Apparently you have not been in many Catholic churches. In various Catholic churches there are side altars and sometimes even chapels devoted to various saints and Mary. At these there is an array of candles which can be lit by the petitioner and there is a box to receive offerings, as well.

No, I have not been in many Catholic Churches at all.

I have seen "altars" of non-Christian faith people that often include offerings, and these are usually food items.

What you describe could turn out to function in the capacity of an "offering" in that sense, but I can think of other possible explanations as well. I've found it wisest to reserve judgement of another Christian's practice until I have at least given the courtesy of asking. Especially since we each stand or fall to our Master, Who alone can judge the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I listened to years of being told "Catholics do this" and "Catholics do that". I'd say there are plenty of misunderstandings being repeated out there. I may not agree with Catholics on some teachings, but I've also found that things are not always what someone assumes them to be.

You bring up something that may bear on the situation. I'd just like to hear all sides. Thanks for your post.

 

[AlexLL]

Many protestant hymns are about self and the wonders we receive from God.

True, but it is far different from the hymn presented in the OP. Although I cannot speak for all hymns, most of the traditional hymns focus on God, his glory, and often the things he promises us and does for us. There are very few hymns that focus on man and his ability to assist saving himself.

 

[concretecamper]

But, I do think that God would be greatly diminished if I knelt down in front of my doctor and prayed to him as I would to God.

I hope you exhibit some sort of respect for a man that saved your life.

The Old and New Testament are filled with stories of people kneeling and pleading with other in a higher position. Is that looked upon as worship? When did an utter show of respect and humility become outdated? When did a select few decide that kneeling equals worship? Seems to me that humility and respect has taken a back seat to ME.

 

[Kristos]

But, I do think that God would be greatly diminished if I knelt down in front of my doctor and prayed to him as I would to God.

How do you pray that is significantly unique and sacred? How do other people communicate their prayer request to you?

Can we at least agree that prayer and worship are different?

Then if prayer and worship are different, then what about prayer makes it exclusively directed toward God? In it's essence, what is prayer to you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

But, I do think that God would be greatly diminished if I knelt down in front of my doctor and prayed to him as I would to God.

God is not diminished by anything you can do or say. That is a fundamental truth which must be grasped. And nobody that I have ever met prays to Mary (or a doctor) as God or believes that Mary (or a doctor) is God.

 

[Albion]

Can we at least agree that prayer and worship are different?

No. To be more precise, we cannot say that categorically.

For instance, in the hymn that was the impetus for this thread, the prayer IS worship. That's embodied in the lyrics. It, like the Rosary, is both a petition AND a devotional to the person addressed. Her alleged powers and qualities are extolled and affirmed, etc., so--depending on what those allegations are-- it is worship of a sort.

 

[Kristos]

No. To be more precise, we cannot say that categorically.

For instance, in the hymn that was the impetus for this thread, the prayer IS worship. That's embodied in the lyrics. It, like the Rosary, is both a petition AND a devotional to the person addressed. Her alleged powers and qualities are extolled and affirmed, etc., so--depending on what those allegations are-- it is worship of a sort.

Okay, so what exactly makes a prayer worship? Are there prayers that are not worship? Or are the two always synonymous?

 

[Albion]

Okay, so what exactly makes a prayer worship? Are there prayers that are not worship? Or are the two always synonymous?

Well, I thought I had just explained how it can be both prayer and worship. It's a matter of the contents of the wording and perhaps the behavior that accompanies it (if it does).

Of course there are prayers that are NOT worship. A prayer that is actually a request for intercession I would not call worship, even though I consider the practice unScriptural and superfluous. The usual response we hear from folks who favor prayer to the saints is that it's just like asking your neighbor to help you, to pray for you, etc. That's a false analogy, but that kind of prayer is indeed what some prayers are like.

OTOH, with those that have wording like we find in this hymn, we are dealing with professions of belief in the God-like powers or authority of the one petitioned. That's worship. That's not merely a request for intercession.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I hope you exhibit some sort of respect for a man that saved your life.

The Old and New Testament are filled with stories of people kneeling and pleading with other in a higher position. Is that looked upon as worship? When did an utter show of respect and humility become outdated? When did a select few decide that kneeling equals worship? Seems to me that humility and respect has taken a back seat to ME.

When Cornelius prostrated himself before Peter, Peter rebuked him (Acts 10:25,26). Cornelius could have easily explained his actions as being merely veneration or gratitude, but he did not. Likewise when John fell down to worship the angel in Revelation 19:10 he was told not to do that. I am quite certain that John knew that God only was to be worshipped and that he could very simply have viewed his action as being one of reverence, but it was not.

There is a vast difference between showing due respect to a person and importuning him to save you spiritually.

 

[Kristos]

Well, I thought I had just explained how it can be both prayer and worship. It's a matter of the contents of the wording and perhaps the behavior that accompanies it (if it does).

Of course there are prayers that are NOT worship. A prayer that is actually a request for intercession I would not call worship, even though I consider the practice unScriptural and superfluous. The usual response we hear from folks who favor prayer to the saints is that it's just like asking your neighbor to help you, to pray for you, etc. That's a false analogy, but that kind of prayer is indeed what some prayers are like.

OTOH, with those that have wording like we find in this hymn, we are dealing with professions of belief in the God-like powers or authority of the one petitioned. That's worship. That's not merely a request for intercession.

So the difference is the profession of belief in God-like powers or authority. Can we narrow this down a little more? Which powers and authority are proper only to God? We could probably agree on eternal salvation/life.