How to perfectly understand...."born again".

Sidon said:

You would do better to post their theology, as when you try to paraphrase it, you mangle it into incoherency.

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Doubt you’ll explain that one. The only mangling I’ve seen so far has been due to your own lack of comprehension, or refusal to comprehend.

MMXX said:

What you said, I've experienced. But I've always thought of it as an ongoing relationship as opposed to me keeping myself saved.
The way you put it in the context of maintaining salvation, it still seems hazy as to how much of that is the Holy Spirit transforming you vs how well you perform to make the transformation happen.

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Why would that conflict anyway? It is an ongoing relationship, which I've maintained. But as with any relationship, it can be broken; the will of man is involved. And that relationship is our salvation. If you're living it, remaining in Him, producing fruit, not perfected in all things but getting there as far as you know, then you should have confidence that you're His.

Sidon said:

So, yes, Salvation is a Gift, and God offers it for free, to anyone and everyone.
To receive it, is to believe it.

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And a gift that can be rejected at any point. We won't see the Lord without holiness, in every part of us, in thought, word, and deed. Not perfection, but holiness nonetheless.

fhansen said:

And a gift that can be rejected at any point. We won't see the Lord without holiness, in every part of us, in thought, word, and deed. Not perfection, but holiness nonetheless.

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Are you sure that doesn't just mean that without holiness we are unable to see the Lord, as in holiness being a lens? I know it's a top ten favorite "you're going to lose your salvation if you're not good enough" proof text. But I'm not so sure that's what Hebrews 12:14 is implying.

MMXX said:

Are you sure that just doesn't mean that without holiness we are unable to see the Lord, as in holiness being a lens? I know that's a top ten favorite "you're going to hell if you're not good enough" verse. But I'm not sure that's what it's implying.

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Well, yes. Without holiness we really don't even want to see the Lord. The two are sort of mutually exclusive. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God".

The real point is that it's who we are, who we've become by walking with God, and regardless of how we might see ourselves. To have Christ as our model is one thing-all Christians do that. And to say that we cannot achieve that by legalism, by self-effort, is also true, and something all Christians should know. And yet many don't-and it's a very human and sometimes subtle thing to fall into legalism, to reliance on strictly outward expressions of holiness.

Anyway, I'll continue to insist that, 1) man's will is not uninvolved in his salvation from beginning to end, and 2) that one can lose their saved status by turning away from God. And while good fruit can be faked, bad fruit is a pretty good indicator at least that we're not His, that we've rejected the gift.

Sidon said:

I read some of it, and some of it is very flawed, so, its not what i would personally recommend, unless i got a kick out of trying to confuse believers.
I dont, so that is why my Teaching is very specific and does not mislead.

So...Here is one of the errors.. in your article, and its a biggie.

• """"""""""Spiritual birth is produced by the will of God. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). """""""""""""

So, whoever wrote this, does not know what they are talking about.
What they have done here is confused the fact that its God's "will for all to be saved", by stating that this "will" is how God causes the new birth,.....and that is nonsense and anti-scriptural.
Im sure there is more false theology in your article, but that is so bad that i didn't need to look for worse.

Here is the reality.
God's will is that all would trust in Jesus, but its the SPIRIT of God, and not the "will" of God, that causes the new birth.

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I would say that you are not plainly reading this verse as it stands, friend. First, John 1:13 is implying that we are born again by God's will by what is stated in the words in the beginning of the verse. It says not born of the will of man, but of God. That means we are born of God's will.

But even if you did not believe me, there are other translations that actually say we are born by the will of God.

“who were born, not merely in a genetic sense, nor from lust, nor from man's desire, but from the will of God.” (John 1:13) (International Standard Version).

“Who were not begotten by bloodlines, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the will of God.” (John 1:13) (A Faithful Version).

Second, logic dictates that it is God's will that we become born again because God desires all men to be saved.

“who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4).

For we cannot enter the kingdom of God (be saved) without being born again.

“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5).

So to say that to be born again is not God's will is silly at best.

Three, James 1:18 says,

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.” (James 1:18) (KJB).

“It was of His own will that He gave us birth [as His children] by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits of His creatures [a prime example of what He created to be set apart to Himself—sanctified, made holy for His divine purposes].” (James 1:18) (AMP).

This does not mean Calvinism is true by any means. God did not force us to be saved. We have to choose of our own free will in cooperating with God's will. It's our choice to accept the faith and it is our choice to continue in the faith. God is not going to believe for us or force us or change us to believe. Yes, God can give us a new heart with new desires. God can most certainly help us to keep His commands, but we have to want that. We have to choose this day in who will will serve. Sadly, most will not.

fhansen said:

Why would that conflict anyway? It is an ongoing relationship, which I've maintained.

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For me it's an ongoing relationship which God has maintained.

Do you see the difference there?

fhansen said:

But as with any relationship, it can be broken; the will of man is involved. And that relationship is our salvation. If you're living it, remaining in Him, producing fruit, not perfected in all things but getting there as far as you know, then you should have confidence that you're His.

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I look at it more as He remains in me leading me to produce fruit. And that's what let's me know I'm His.

To me it's a difference in totally trusting in God to see me though, rather than trying to rely on myself.

MMXX said:

I look at it more as He remains in me leading me to produce fruit. And that's what let's me know I'm His.

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"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me." John 15:4

We're not forced to believe in and enter relationship with Him to begin with, let alone remain in Him. I don't know why that should be any problem. We already agree that He's perfectly trustworthy and true. Man has been the problem from the outset. As long as we want the relationship to be ongoing, we'll continue to remain in Him. The fact that He wants it to continue is a nonissue. The fact that He wants all to come to belief and repentance is a nonissue-except with some novel gospels here and there anyway.

To all:

It really comes down to whether we believe the whole counsel of God's Word or not.
Do we believe those parts of the Bible we do not like?
I am preaching to even myself because I had a hard time accepting Matthew 19:9 in what it plainly said. But I had a hard pill to swallow recently. I was more conservative and I did not like the idea of remarriage for any other reason other than that the other partner was dead (Romans 7:1-3). But God's thoughts are not our thoughts. We have to submit to every Word of God and most people today have a hard time submitting to ALL of His Word.

Some Christians today are into praying to other gods besides God like the saints.
Yet, nowhere in Scripture does it say we can pray to dead believers. Only God alone has power to receive billions of prayers. To pray to another being besides God is to make that being out to be like God; And God's Word says you shall have no other gods before me. Some Christians believe you can bow down to statues, which is idolatry.

Other Christians today make up their own rules in how they think we are saved and they overstep God's grace in thinking they can sin and still be saved on some level. They turn God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Even if they may act like they are for holy living on some level, their message of salvation does not allow for that. Holy living is not a part of their plan of salvation and it is merely optional. They talk about the blood of Jesus and the cross alone for salvation, but they ignore verses like 1 John 1:7, Hebrews 12:14, Luke 10:25-28, and many others. They pick and choose which parts of the New Testament they want to believe in when it comes to God's plan of salvation. Why? It always comes back to sin. Men would rather run off and do His own thing rather than follow what God's Word says. Sure, they may follow His Word to an extent, but they will not follow His whole Word. They cut out the parts they don't like by ignoring them or changing the meaning of them to fit their belief they want to be true.

We truly are living in the last days as per 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

I am always reminded of 1 Kings 13:11-30. It is a story of a man of God who chose to listen to the false prophecy instead of continuing to listen to God's Word and he was killed because of it. So just because he was a man of God did not mean he was immune to punishment from God. Most Christians today will take this to mean he lost rewards in Heaven but he did not lose his salvation but I am not convinced of that. I believe this man of God was condemned because of his disobedience to God. Sure, believers can mess up. I am not saying that. Many believers in the Bible have made mistakes but there are some mistakes that God does not look favorably upon. There are some tests by God that if we fail, we are not going to make it. But the majority of Christianity today teaches a greasy grace gospel of do nothing and just believe in Jesus and you will be changed when the cold hard reality is that they are not. To be born again is to be spiritually a new person altogether. You are not like the old man in any way. You are not like this world and it's sin.

Jesus warned against how certain sins can destroy our souls (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62). While we do need to be saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ first, we need to also love God and our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life, too (Luke 10:25-28).

It's not legalism to obey God in what He wants us to do.
It's not legalism if God warns us of how sin can destroy our souls.
Legalism is man made traditions or rules.
Legalism is when there is no grace whatsoever.
But many will thrown down the legalism card and or your trying to save yourselves by your efforts or works when in reality they are just obeying what God's Word says plainly (after being saved by God's grace). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But the gospel also calls us. The call of the gospel is that God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Think. If we are already saved by the gospel and the gospel is calling us to something else... that would not be being being born one time spiritually. The call of the gospel is Romans 8:13.

Of course, many will put their hands over their ears over hearing or reading these verses honestly and they will attack against such a truth in God's Word. For they only want to hear the message they want to hear. A message that is more comforting, but yet it is not in truth to what His Word says.

fhansen said:

"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me." John 15:4

We're not forced to believe in and enter relationship with Him to begin with, let alone remain in Him. I don't know why that should be any problem.

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That's pretty much a strawman to knock down. They who don't believe in self saving though works, don't want to burdened with obligation, is another strawman. They want a license to sin, is another strawman.

fhansen said:

We already agree that He's perfectly trustworthy and true. Man has been the problem from the outset. As long as we want the relationship to be ongoing, we'll continue to remain in Him. The fact that He wants it to continue is a nonissue. The fact that He wants all to come to belief and repentance is a nonissue-except with some novel gospels here and there anyway.

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It tends to come out as man being in the forefront and God being in the background, as I see it.

Sidon said:

The Gift, is not you doing it.
When you can see this, you'll finally begin to understand Salvation.
Till then, you'll continue to pretend the you keep yourself saved, which violates the "Gift" of God.

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God wants your participation, doesn’t need it, but wants it, doesn’t need you, but wants you, could’ve just stuck you in heaven to begin with, without appealing to your will, but didn’t want to do it that way. Because He wants you to want it, to want what He wants, that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and increasingly so, for us to grow in that conviction, that rectitude of will, and in living it out.

We must only come to recognize our need for Him, first of all. Then we’ll open the door when He knocks, and let Him in. He’s the Gift. And we choose Him as we pick up our cross and follow, doing His will, a daily choice. We can grow stronger in that choice, becoming more like Him, or we can also grow weaker in it, turning away from Him. Our actions, generally our actions towards neighbor, betray our attitude towards God, our faith in, hope in, and love for Him. It’s all grace, and yet grace we can resist and refuse. God initiates it’s all; He comes to us, and moves our will to Himself. We can still say no.

MMXX said:

That's pretty much a strawman to knock down.

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And why would the need, the obligation, to remain in Him to bear much fruit be a straw man?

MMXX said:

It tends to come out as man being in the forefront and God being in the background, as I see it.

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And as I see it you’re seeing what you prefer to see. I’m only saying that the will of man is not uninvolved.

Sidon said:

Salvation is God on the Cross, shedding Blood.

That is Salvation.
What part do you have in that, fhansen?
ZERO.

So, you are always talking about discipleship, as if that is the CROSS.
Its not.

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The CROSS does nothing for those who don’t believe, faith being both a gift, and a choice. Faith places us into relationship with God, which is the right order of things for man. Now, enabled and empowered by the Spirit, we can finally walk as we should, “To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:9

You insist that we can’t turn and walk away from this relationship, and, I believe, that our acting and walking rightly are guaranteed once born again. I only say that we can leave it at any time, and our fruit bears witness to whether we have done so or not.