How to perfectly understand...."born again".

[ozso]

And I'm saying the obligation, to remain in relationship with Him, born out by how we live and not merely by what we think and say, is a continuous one. We are not OSAS. The choice is one that we all face daily. If I say I believe, but then fall into sin, that sin, itself, defies and opposes my faith. We're compromising faith, at that point, which is essentially what Adam did in Eden to begin with. Because to believe in God means we know Him and according to John to say we know Him and continue to sin is a lie. So if we were to engage in some persistent serious sin especially, we're already turning away from faith, from Him.

So you don't think the Holy Spirit has the ability to guide you in how you live? Every time I read one of you posts of this nature, it seems like it's all about you and nothing about how God in you fits into it. It's like God saves you and then He just sits back to see how well you do on your own. The rest of what you're saying is what people who don't know God do, which would mean they never became saved.

 

[ozso]

It means to believe is to finally embark on the journey, the only way, to full communion with God who is our end, our purpose. We just have to stay on it. Or keep getting back on if we stray.

And the Holy Spirit fits in where in this? Are you on your own, doing it all by yourself, or is the Holy Spirit enabling you?

 

[fhansen]

And the Holy Spirit fits in where in this? Are you on your own, doing it all by yourself, or is the Holy Spirit enabling you?

If you've truly been a reading my post, I cannot imagine how anyone could ask that question

 

[Sidon]

You just can’t accept the idea of obligation and accountability for a follower.

My obligation to God is to "present my body as a living sacrifice".
This is why i teach all over the world.
What i teach, actually teaches the believer the way to stop sinning and confessing and live in the Grace of God, correctly.

Where you are confused, is by believing that if you do not PERFORM, (accountability and obligation)< then you lose your salvation.
So, that is not trust in Christ....That is the gospel of works and self effort.

 

[ozso]

If you've truly been a reading my post, I cannot imagine how anyone could ask that question

Well I was trying to get to a conclusion, but that's not going to happen if you shut down.

 

[ozso]

My obligation to God is to "present my body as a living sacrifice".
This is why i teach all over the world.
What i teach, actually teaches the believer the way to stop sinning and confessing and live in the Grace of God, correctly.

Where you are confused, is by believing that if you do not PERFORM, (accountability and obligation)< then you lose your salvation.
So, that is not trust in Christ....That is the gospel of works and self effort.

Quite honestly I've been thinking it sounds like trust issue.

 

[fhansen]

Well I was trying to get to a conclusion, but that's not going to happen if you shut down.

I've been quite prolific in explanations-that's the point. But, ok, again, we can do nothing-nothing- apart from Him.

 

[fhansen]

My obligation to God is to "present my body as a living sacrifice".
This is why i teach all over the world.
What i teach, actually teaches the believer the way to stop sinning and confessing and live in the Grace of God, correctly.

Where you are confused, is by believing that if you do not PERFORM, (accountability and obligation)< then you lose your salvation.
So, that is not trust in Christ....That is the gospel of works and self effort.

No, the inclusion of human obligation, of the human will, from the beginning, is the gospel. You already know, I think, how to live and act and walk and think justly. There's only one way. What you don't want, and what the bible insists on from beginning to the end, is that this righteousness is, as it has always been, obligatory even though we know, from the New Covenant perspective, that it's a gift, something we have no capacity to obtain on our own. A gift we must choose to accept and act upon daily. There's no OSAS.

When we turn to God in trust, we enter fellowship with Him and, as we remain there, He places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. And as a follower you should how that works. As we express the gift given, the love given to put it most succinctly, responding to the Spirit's promptings, we grow even more in it. To the extent that we, in actuality, sin, we show that we're not remaining in Him, that we don't really know Him-our faith isn't being very faithful. He patiently cuts all kinds of slack, not wanting any to be lost but ultimately, if we persist in sliding backwards rather than making headway forward, He'll let us have what we want.

 

[fhansen]

So you don't think the Holy Spirit has the ability to guide you in how you live? Every time I read one of you posts of this nature, it seems like it's all about you and nothing about how God in you fits into it. It's like God saves you and then He just sits back to see how well you do on your own. The rest of what you're saying is what people who don't know God do, which would mean they never became saved.

God the Holy Spirit can do whatever He wants. He could've prevented Adam from sinning to begin with. It's what we do, even after tasting of the heavenly gift (Heb 6:4), even after coming to know Him (Heb 10:26 & 2 Pet 2:20-22), that can mean our destruction, our separation from Him.

 

[ozso]

I've been quite prolific in explanations-that's the point. But, ok, again, we can do nothing-nothing- apart from Him.

So then how can you not succeed? Or is it that you can do nothing apart from Him, but you have to be diligent at fulfilling your obligation to stay connected?

 

[ozso]

God the Holy Spirit can do whatever He wants. He could've prevented Adam from sinning to begin with. It's what we do, even after tasting of the heavenly gift (Heb 6:4), even after coming to know Him (Heb 10:26 & 2 Pet 2:20-22), that can mean our destruction, our separation from Him.

It sounds like you're back to salvation being all about you.

 

[fhansen]

So then how can you not succeed? Or is it that you can do nothing apart from Him, but you have to be diligent at fulfilling your obligation to stay connected?

We can do nothing apart from Him. That's both a simple truth, and an instruction.

 

[Sidon]

Quite honestly I've been thinking it sounds like trust issue.

If a person is born again, then that happened because they trusted in commandments, law, and water baptism, or is it because they trusted ONLY in Christ"?

So, if a person who is born again, only based on God accepting their faith in Christ to give them the New Birth, .........IF later..... they are deceived by self, or by a dark light then their faith becomes broken, not their salvation.
They are this...>"fallen from Grace".
Being born again protects your Salvation, but it does not protect you from being deceived.
You have to learn to do that.
I teach how.

Grace is the Cross and the Blood of Jesus, given as "the gift of Righteousness".

The person with broken faith, FALLS AWAY FROM BELIEVING THAT ONLY CHRIST SAVES THEM, and they become....>"now im doing this in place of real faith......im trusting in myself and my self effort and my commandment keeping"..

See that?

They had real faith, but they fell from it, "fallen from Grace".... into SELF Faith, or Self righteousness.
They have stopped believing that CHRIST is their completed Salvation, given to them as "the gift of Salvation"......, and are now chasing a list, as their savior.
They are literally now up on the cross of their own self righteousness.

Here is a partial list that can't save you, but many chase this list as their savior, and will have you chasing it also, if you listen to them.... They will tell you that if you dont do all of this, or some of this, then you are not saved, or you will lose your salvation.

1. Water Baptism
2. Self effort
3. Mary
4, The Sacriments and the Eucharist
5. The Law
6. The commandments.

See all that? and there is more.......Notice that this list is all about what you try to DO, in place of simply trusting in Christ to save you and keep you saved.

See the problem?
That is "self saving" or Legalism.

 

[ozso]

We can do nothing apart from Him. That's both a simple truth, and an instruction.

An instruction to be totally reliant upon Him, or an instruction to work hard at staying connected to Him?

 

[fhansen]

So you're back to salvation being all about you.

If you wish. If you're drowning and the only way to be saved is if someone throws you a life preserver and offers to lift you up, and someone does, can you be saved apart from them? And yet what happens if you don't grab hold, and keep holding on? He'll get us where we need to be; we don't even know where that is to begin with. We just need to remain faithful on our part, and that means continuing to embrace -and to act on- that faith daily.

It's like marital faithfulness; its proved and confirmed and grown over time, and doesn't just consist in saying, "I love you." And if I compromise that fidelity in some manner, that means something-about who I really am, about my integrity. God just so happens to have designed this whole thing so that our wills are involved-because He wants more from and for us than we can even know.

 

[Sidon]

No, the inclusion of human obligation, of the human will, from the beginning, is the gospel.

You just stated that 'Human will " is the Gospel.

Well, its not God's., but it is yours.

Listen....... the Gospel, is Christ on the Cross, dying and died, and rose again.
Redemption, is found in Christ on the Cross.
The "preaching OF the CROSS"< is the Gospel.

The only part your will plays in that, is ......."all that call on the Name of Jesus, shall be saved".

"All that BELIEVE shall be saved and all who do not believe shall be Damed".

Believe what? "THE GOSPEL", which is Christ on the Cross as the sin bearing Savior of the world, who died and rose again, and is ALIVE right now making intercession for all the Born again.

 

[Sidon]

We can do nothing apart from Him. That's both a simple truth, and an instruction.

And being in the Vine, is to be found ' "abiding in Christ".

How do you do that?

Jesus said...>"you must be BORN AGAIN">

 

[ozso]

If you wish. If you're drowning and the only way to be saved is if someone throws you a life preserver and offers to lift you up, and someone does, can you be saved apart from them? And yet what happens if you don't grab hold, and keep holding on? He'll get us where we need to be; we don't even know where that is to begin with. We just need to remain faithful on our part, and that means continuing to embrace -and to act on- that faith daily. It's like marital faithfulness; its proved and confirmed and grown over time, and doesn't just consist in saying, "I love you." And if I compromise that fidelity in some manner, that means something-about who I really am, about my integrity. God just so happens to have designed this while thing so that our wills are involved-because He wants more from and for us than we can know.

Actually when I was drowning someone grabbed hold of me and brought me to safety.

 

[fhansen]

An instruction to be totally reliant upon Him, or an instruction to work hard at staying connected to Him?

Instruction for us to remain in Him, knowing that that is an option we can fail at. Knowing that, for example, not putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit would be a matter of not remaining in Him.

 

[fhansen]

Actually when I was drowning someone grabbed hold of me and brought me to safety. True story.

Great, I did the same for my daughter. I didn't even ask her first to trust and believe that I could save her. God does it His way, for His purposes.