Sidon

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The CROSS does nothing for those who don’t believe, .

And yet, when a person does believe.... they become "One with God"., as a "new Creation".
This is not a "sinner"., This is a "Son of God".
This is to be born again AS "the righteousness of GOD", as a born again SPIRIT. ... "in Christ". "made righteous".

The "old man" is crucified with Christ and the born again "new man", the new Creation, "is risen with Christ in newness of LIFE".
This "life" is "the righteousness of God"", and the born all exist AS that...= "the new Creation".

Colossians 3:1. """ Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven,"""

To set your mind on the "realities of Heaven" is to recognize what it means to be born again as a new creation, INTO the Spirit of God.
This "recognition" , is the renewed mind.
 
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Being born again is not a "implication".
Its eternal life, and you have it, or you not born again.

Talk to an English professor or expert, and they will agree with me on John 1:13. It's called basic English. Besides I already showed you other translations that agree with me that say that it is God's will in John 1:13, AND I showed you James 1:18 that flat out says that we are born of God's will, too.

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.” (James 1:18).

On top of that, I have shown another verse that God desires that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).
So if that is the case, then it is God's will that all should be born again because one cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again.

So, you are in error.

You also keep repeating the same ole false mantra of just believe in the cross or the blood of Christ alone and that is not really the whole picture of salvation. Yes, Romans 3:25 teaches that we must believe in His blood for salvation, but you also need to believe in 1 John 1:7. 1 John 1:7 basically says to WALK in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. 1 John 1:5 is saying that the light is God, and 1 John 2:9-11 by the indirect wording used is saying that “walking in the light” = “loving your brother.” So you have to also love your brother. If not we are not of God (1 John 3:10).
 
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fhansen

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And yet, when a person does believe.... they become "One with God"., as a "new Creation".
This is not a "sinner"., This is a "Son of God".
This is to be born again AS "the righteousness of GOD", as a born again SPIRIT. ... "in Christ". "made righteous".

The "old man" is crucified with Christ and the born again "new man", the new Creation, "is risen with Christ in newness of LIFE".
This "life" is "the righteousness of God"", and the born all exist AS that...= "the new Creation".

Colossians 3:1. """ Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven,"""

To set your mind on the "realities of Heaven" is to recognize what it means to be born again as a new creation, INTO the Spirit of God.
This "recognition" , is the renewed mind.
Ok, I agree that we become one with God. I also believe that this union can be more or less solid or strong, and is meant to become stronger- that we're made to love Him to put it another way, and that this love has virtually no limits-and that said love really and truly defines what it means to be just or righteous for man. Because within God's love for us and our love for Him all true righteousness is actually, fully realized.

But however we describe this oneness I see the renewed mind as an ongoing process, and setting our sights above, or onto the holiness that we're created to have or be, is the goal or ideal that we should continue to strive for, to grow increasingly into. And again, properly understood, love defines that holiness better than any other concept. And if that's "discipleship", I only see that as a continuation of a journey that we've embarked on as we come to believe.
 
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Sidon

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Ok, I agree that we become one with God. I also believe that this union can be more or less solid or strong, .

fhansen,

who made the union?
you, or God.?

So, if you made it, .. if you caused the new birth then keep preaching your "look at me keep myself saved, theology".'
But if GOD made the Union, by giving a person the new birth , then no longer use a christian forum, to tell us that you are doing it by self effort.
 
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Ceallaigh

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And as I see it you’re seeing what you prefer to see. I’m only saying that the will of man is not uninvolved.

I'm not so sure I'm viewing it all that subjectively, since my mind isn't made up on it. Overall, as I first noticed probably a month ago, it appears that self is way out in the forefront and God is in the background. Not as the will of man is not uninvolved, but as if man's involvement is paramount.
 
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Sidon

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I'm not so sure I'm viewing it all that subjectively, since my mind isn't made up on it. Overall, as I first noticed probably a month ago, it appears that self is way out in the forefront and God is in the background. Not as the will of man is not uninvolved, but that man's involvement is paramount.

There are so many things that are beautiful about the "gift of Salvation".
One, is that ..Jesus is salvation.
So, if you have Him in you.......then thats a beautiful situation, defined as
" having eternal life".

Also, the more a true believer realizes that Salvation is God taking responsibility, on the Cross, to get you into Heaven as His Son, the more wonderful is the progressive REST that you find from trying to do that for yourself, which is such a inner peace.
When a believer comes to the fullness of this Real faith, then their mind is renewed, and they are literally not just abiding in the Spirit, but are literally "walking in the Spirit".
 
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fhansen

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fhansen,

who made the union?
you, or God.?

So, if you made it, .. if you caused the new birth then keep preaching your "look at me keep myself saved, theology".'
But if GOD made the Union, by giving a person the new birth , then no longer use a christian forum, to tell us that you are doing it by self effort.
He makes the union. My part is only to not refuse. And not to the leave the vital union. Either way, as in a marriage it still takes two. It's not to be forced upon us-as per God's wisdom and will. And if you're incapable of teaching Christianity as correctly as it should be taught then you certainly shouldn't be using a Christian forum to tell us your novel "gospel".

But rather than trading insults at this point I'd prefer to understand your teaching better. I guess I’m trying to understand if it truly does any good to see myself as a saint regardless of whether or not I may still sin in actuality. To know God’s love and forgiveness, in spite of my sin, and to know that He wants and can bring us to much higher heights that we started out at, is central to our faith. And yet, of course, some people could care less, preferring to remain in their sin anyway.

To acknowledge sin when it happens-and it will- is healthy, and the first step in overcoming it. To beat myself up over sin continuously, OTOH, is unhealthy, and some believers seem almost proud in doing so at times, as if they think God would be pleased by such "humility". Anyway, what good is done by seeing myself as holy, as a new creation in some definitive and completed way? Maybe I'm just missing the point.
 
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Sidon

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He makes the union.

And that is your only part.
If You give your faith, God will give you the "gift of Righteousness".
The proof you have it, is if you are born again.

Water baptism, can't do this for you.
 
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Sidon

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It's simply one of the ingredients, even if only a small one that nonetheless leaves the risotto flat if not included.

If Salvation isn't the Blood of God shed as Christ on the Cross, then keep on teaching self effort as your gospel.
 
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Also, the more a true believer realizes that Salvation is God taking responsibility, on the Cross, to get you into Heaven as His Son, the more wonderful is the progressive REST that you find from trying to do that for yourself, which is such a inner peace.

I love this truth.
 
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fhansen

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And that is your only part.
If You give your faith, God will give you the "gift of Righteousness".
The proof you have it, is if you are born again.

Water baptism, can't do this for you.
We're not discussing water baptism, at least not me. We're discussing spiritual change, regardless of how God effects that in us. Faith is the doorway in any case-it's the "I do" in the marriage. The real question is whether or not we can compromise that union, and whether or not righteousness is necessarily guaranteed to be wrought within me, or either way whether or not I can walk away, and "disunite" myself. Some end up being rocky soil. Does that necessarily mean that they were never born again? Or does it mean they weren't the serious and faithful marriage partner they promised to be? Is there any onus, any obligation, on our part?

Does man cease to be a morally accountable being once born again? Only God can cause true morality in me, but does that righteousness not even matter anymore now, or must I, with Him, put to death the deeds of the flesh in order to live? Is the relationship, and the righteousness, permanently guaranteed for a born again person? Is the difference between the old man and the new creation an ideal and a process, or a definitive reality? Can a born again person still choose evil over good, over God?
 
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If Salvation isn't the Blood of God shed as Christ on the Cross, then keep on teaching self effort as your gospel.

Jeremiah 29:13 says,
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

This does sound like doing nothing involving in one wanting to have a relationship with the Lord. Of course you have to ignore such a truth because it does not align with what you personally believe.
 
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Sidon

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I love this truth.

Philippians 1:6.

God will be faithful to complete our salvation.

Hebrews 12:2. Jesus is the author and FINISHER , of our Faith.

Salvation from new birth to final conformation, is a GIFT, that we receive, that God has in His nail scarred hands to complete.

Our part is to get on our knees and say.....THANK YOU GOD FOR YOUR WONDERFUL SALVATiON!!!
Then ,get up, and give Him our lives, everyday, because we have been given such a gift.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Jeremiah 29:13 says,
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

This does sound like doing nothing involving in one wanting to have a relationship with the Lord. Of course you have to ignore such a truth because it does not align with what you personally believe.

I didn't know Jeremiah wrote that after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ which significantly changed how salvation works.
 
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Sidon

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The real question is whether or not we can compromise that union,

If you are unfaithful to your wife, then you have broken your marriage Vow.

If you are unfaithful to God again, and sin, then The Blood of God has already solved that 2000 yrs ago, for you....if you are born again.
Welcome to Salvation.
Its a GIFT.
 
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fhansen

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If you are unfaithful to your wife, then you have broken your marriage Vow.

If you are unfaithful to God again, and sin, then The Blood of God has already solved that 2000 yrs ago, for you....if you are born again.
Welcome to Salvation.
Its a GIFT.
God does not override my option to leave the marriage. Welcome to the gospel of Christ. He doesn't force me to enter, or to remain, even though He patiently works to achieve both, to accept and retain the Gift. As we do though, our union only grows stronger.

To the extent that we will as He does, a work of His in us that we cooperate with, our justice or righteousness is all the greater-which is exactly what His purpose is in us, not to merely save a bunch of otherwise worthless wretches, but to produce something truly grand.
 
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Sidon

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You seem to agree, and then disagree, that man's will is at all involved.

Man's will would be the initial repenting from unbelief, as FAITH in Christ.
THis is accepted by GOD, and He then applies the blood of Jesus to your "sin", and then gives you the New Birth into His own Spirit. "born again Spiritually".
So, that happens, instantly.
Its not a process.


Then, as now becoming a SON of GOD, you are to present your body a living sacrifice, as your discipleship, BECAUSE you ARE SAVED, and never do this, to try to stay saved, as when you fall into that belief, you are "fallen from Grace"...."Bewitched" and "in the Flesh".
 
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fhansen

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Man's will would be the initial repenting from unbelief, as FAITH in Christ.
THis is accepted by GOD, and He then applies the blood of Jesus to your "sin", and then gives you the New Birth into His own Spirit. "born again Spiritually".
So, that happens, instantly.
Its not a process.


Then, as now becoming a SON of GOD, you are to present your body a living sacrifice, as your discipleship, BECAUSE you ARE SAVED, and never do this, to try to stay saved, as when you fall into that belief, you are "fallen from Grace"...."Bewitched" and "in the Flesh".
So we "are to present your body a living sacrifice", but to strictly avoid that as being any kind of obligation, involving our will IOW. No "ought" need apply here?
 
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