How to perfectly understand...."born again".

[ozso]

Great, I did the same for my daughter. I didn't even ask her first to trust and believe that I could save her. God does it His way, for His purposes.

You mean you didn't toss something to her and and require her to keep holding onto it? Didn't say "okay I tossed you the lifeline, the rest is all up to you"?

 

[ozso]

Instruction for us to remain in Him, knowing that that is an option we can fail at. Knowing that, for example, not putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit would be a matter of not remaining in Him.

So it's all up to you. Why don't you just come right out and say that point blank?

 

[fhansen]

You mean you didn't toss something to her and and require her to keep holding onto it? Didn't say "okay I tossed you the lifeline, the rest is all up to you"?

As I said, I didn't even ask her to believe in or trust me, let alone help me. But following you're logic here, since from my understanding you agree along with the OP that we're obliged first of all to believe, to have faith, then maybe you'd say that I should've asked her first. Unless you're a Calvinist, where everything's predetermined for us anyway, the choice of heaven or hell. Or a Universalist, in which case you disagree with the OP anyway.

 

[fhansen]

So it's all up to you. Why don't you just come right out and say that point blank?

I know you're plenty smart enough to comprehend but you refuse to anyway-it almost seems like an affected preference, in fact. Maybe you should admit that. Partnerships, with One making the whole business possible and enabling the other partner to participate in doing a limited amount is hardly the limited partner doing everything. It takes two=syncretism.

 

[fhansen]

You just stated that 'Human will " is the Gospel.

Well, its not God's., but it is yours.

Far from the least disingenuous thing I've heard today. I said the inclusion of the human will is the gospel. Meaning that, as Augustine said, in line with Scripture and the historical teachings of Christianity, not Sidon speculating with private interpretations as it were,
"He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent."

Our justice or righteousness hinges on our willingness to receive it, to receive Him. That's why we're obligated to believe, and why not believing is a matter of injustice. Truth and justice demand that all creation is subjugated to God. For man this begins with faith.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Actually when I was drowning someone grabbed hold of me and brought me to safety.

Something about that sounds familiar…

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.—Romans 5

AMEN!

 

[ozso]

I know you're plenty smart enough to comprehend but you refuse to anyway-it almost seems like an affected preference, in fact. Maybe you should admit that. Partnerships, with One making the whole business possible and enabling the other partner to participate in doing a limited amount is hardly the limited partner doing everything. It takes two=syncretism.

God owns the store, but you run it. And if you don't run the store efficiently enough, the owner will fire you. I'm not even necessarily arguing against what I perceive you're saying. It's what it seems like you're trying to avoid saying that I find to be problematic.

 

[fhansen]

God owns the store, but you run it. And if you don't run the store efficiently enough, the owner will fire you. I'm not even necessarily arguing against what I perceive you're saying. It's what it seems like you're trying to avoid saying that I find to be problematic.

Man's will is involved-he can say no. You want to make that mean that only man's will is involved for some reason. And are we obligated to believe or not? Does justice, itself, demand that man believes in God-even though not all do? In Christianity man cannot even move himself towards God. Faith, as it's been taught, and said here, is a supernatural gift. But man can say no to the gift; man can say no to God at any point along the way.

It's like having the greatest heart surgeon in the world doing heart surgery on you. If you say yes to the procedure, does that mean you're the one doing the surgery, and responsible for the successful outcome as if you know all the complex details involved and have the skills to perform it? And yet if you don't say yes, and do whatever's necessary during recuperation...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

-
Let me show a way to perfectly SEE salvation. = "born again".

The reason this is so so so important, is because until you SEE what God has recreated you to be, as a "new Creation" "In Christ", you wont be able to live in the power of God that is your deliverance as : "Christ always GIVES ME.......the Victory", which is the Grace of God.

What this means, is that most believers, the born again, who don't live in this truth as their real faith, found as the power of God's deliverance OVER "the world , their flesh, and the devil", are not in the renewed mind and are a confused disciple because they are walking "according to the Flesh", (carnal mind) instead of walking under the dominion of GRACE, where THE "victory" is only found, as the renewed mind.

So, let me show you a perfect way to see yourself as the "new Creation", "born again".
------------------------------------------------------------------

Saint, all things with God are...>"BELIEVE and RECEIVE".
All things with God are given to us., as a "gift"

Notice.... Salvation is : "The Gift of Salvation".
Righteousness is : "The Gift of Righteousness".
The 9 Heavenly anointing's, are : "Spiritual Gifts".

Nothing God offers that exists as The Kingdom of God, is earned. Its all a Gift.

Even Jesus, is the Gift of God, who is : "the only begotten SON", who came here because "for God so loved the world .....that HE GAVE"..
See that?....... John 3:16
-------------------------

Now let me now show you a perfect way to SEE your Salvation, that God has provided to you as the CROSS of Christ, which is: "the GIFT of Salvation".

In Genesis, you have God creating man as : "in our Image".
1st "Adam".
So, The OT says that Adam had perfect fellowship/relationship/peace, with God.
So, why didn't Satan?
Why didn't the devil?
Because Satan was not righteous, he had SIN.
Whereas 1st Adam, was the "image" or Likeness of God, Spiritually, = as God is "A" Spirit.
So, the same "A" Spirit that was in 1st Adam, is the Holy Spirit, that is the exact Spirit of God, and is HOLY = Righteous.....sinless.
So, for as long as Adam was exactly like that, Spiritually, He had infinite and perfect relationship, fellowship, and PEACE, with God.

See that?

Adam had God's "likeness" which is : the righteousness of God. This is the same SPIRIT that God Has,.... 1st Adam had, then lost.
So, while He had that "A" Spirit......He had UNION of SPIRIT with God, as both had the same Spirit, = The Holy Spirit.
See that relationship = IN THE Spirit? That is "Spiritual UNION".

When Adam sinned, then all this was LOST. Spiritual union was broken.
And once lost, once broken.... then all Spiritual relationship with God was gone, as Adam's Spirit DIED because of his disobedience, so the relationship that was shared between God and 1st Adam was cut off, was disconnected, was dead. 1st Adam became separated from God's Holy Spirit.
That is what is meant by "dead" or "In Adam all die". 1st Corinthians 15

Now, what God did to resolve your separation from His Holy Spirit, (because you have sinned), was come here as the 2nd Adam, with the same holiness, righteousness, and Holy SPIRIT.
This is offered to you, as a "Gift".
This is what Jesus is talking about when He says dying on The Cross....."it is Finished".
This is the completion of what Jesus had to do, so that God could offer you the only way to become reconciled to God. John 14:6

Salvation is the 2nd Adam, JESUS..... offering you this same righteousness as He IS, that you become, = Spiritually, ....that is the "new birth", and the "new Creation". "In Christ".

Salvation, is Jesus as the 2nd Adam, giving Eternal LIFE to your dead Spirit, as Himself the Spirit of God, living in you as "Christ IN YOU, the hope of Glory".
When this happens, you have become born again SPIRITUALLY< as a "Son of God", exactly as 1st Adam was before he sinned and lost this position, and relationship, and Sonship.

See that?

See that "reconciliation" that God provides to you as "the gift of Salvation"?
The born again are restored to the same SPIRITUAL relationship that 1st Adam had with God before he lost it.
We get this "gift" because we are become JOINED to the 2nd Adam, as who we become as "the New Creation", "born again"..."In Christ".
To be "Made Righteous", is to be restored to the same state of righteousness, that 1st Adam had before He fell.
This is accomplished as "eternal life", which is the 2nd Adam, Jesus, coming to live inside our Spirit that causes it to be born again, as "ONE WITH GOD, in Christ".
This is Salvation, and its a "Gift".
-------------------------------------------------------
That is who you become, as "born again".
That is who you are as "the new Creation" "in Christ".
That is what it means to be "born again" SPIRITUALLY.
That is what John is talking about in : 1 John 3:9
That is your dead Spirit, being rebirthed by God's Holy Spirit, as "" Christ in You".. which becomes YOU....as the Born again "new Creation" "In Christ".
This is all the born again who have become..."The Righteousness of GOD, In Christ".

This is YOUR Born again SPIRIT, become "= One with God, IN Christ".
This is your Eternal LIFE.
This is the GIFT of Salvation.

That is who you have become as a "SON of God", ...as the "new CREATION IN Christ, when you become a CHRISTian.....
See it?
That is what it means to become 'ONE with God", "IN Christ".
That is now who you have been Spiritually BIRTHED to be, as born again INTO GOD's Spirit, by the Holy Spirit of God. = "new CREATION...In Christ".

This is why the born again become a "SON" of God., as Born AGAIN...as "ONE with GOD, In Christ".
This is why Paul teaches you that .."As Jesus IS, so are the born again ...IN THIS WORLD">.
See that?

When you can see it, when you get this revelation.... and know this is the real you as the "born again"...."NEW CREATION" "IN CHRIST">.. then your mind is renewed and you are "walking IN The Spirit".

I prefer the explanation from this Christian article instead.

Spiritual Birth - Bible Study and Christian Teaching on What Does It Mean to Be Born Again - Biblical Teachings

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While we can be born again spiritually by receiving Christ Jesus as our Savior and His grace (the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), we also know that we must overcome to truly be a son in the end.

Revelation 21:7 says
“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”

We can tell a born again person by the fact that they do righteousness.

“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.” (1 John 2:29).

So those who seek to make being born again all about a mental acknowledgment of a certain set of facts will not really desire to do much for our Lord. Knowing certain facts do not save a person. Salvation has to hit the heart of an individual and they have to decide in receiving the Lord and in counting the cost in serving Him. We have to broken up about our sin with a godly sorrow and seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus. We have to be willing to surrender all to the Lord and allow the Spirit to move completely in our lives. This shows that we have a new life to show we are born again. No man can live in the ways of the old man and it's sin and evil and claim to be born again or a new person.

Most who claim to be for Easy Believism claim that the way to be changed spiritually is to just believe and trust in Jesus and His cross alone. But this will not help them to overcome sin (no matter how many times they may claim that this is so). George Sodini, and Kenneth Nally held to Belief Alone-ism and they both committed suicide. George Sodini had also killed people thinking he would be saved despite what he did. This is the true fruit of Easy Believism - IMHO.

 

[ozso]

Man's will is involved-he can say no. You want to make that mean that only man's will is involved for some reason. And are we obligated to believe or not? Does justice, itself, demand that man believes in God-even though not all do? In Christianity man cannot even move himself towards God. Faith, as it's been taught, and said here, is a supernatural gift. But man can say no to the gift; man can say no to God at any point along the way.

It's like having the greatest heart surgeon in the world doing heart surgery on you. If you say yes to the procedure, does that mean you're the one doing the surgery, and responsible for the successful outcome as if you know all the complex details involved and have the skills to perform it? And yet if you don't say yes, and do whatever's necessary during recuperation...

This seems to up and down quite a bit. And not just from you, but others I've heard as well. Using the store analogy, it seems to go from you getting fired for doing a bad job, to you quitting. And those are totally different situations.

 

[fhansen]

This seems to up and down quite a bit. And not just from you, but others I've heard as well. Using the store analogy, it seems to go from you getting fired for doing a bad job, to you quitting. And those are totally different situations.

Sounds rather consistent to me. Man’s will is involved. He can get on board, responding to Gods initiative, to His calling, or not. Then he can stay on board, or not. God does everything to draw and keep us but ultimately does not override the human will, simply because He wants it involved, and increasingly so. Otherwise, again, He would’ve just stocked heaven with whoever He wants there, maybe everyone?- and/or stocked hell with the rest. Instead it’s a journey, a process, and a good one.

 

[fhansen]

I prefer the explanation from this Christian article instead.

Spiritual Birth - Bible Study and Christian Teaching on What Does It Mean to Be Born Again - Biblical Teachings

I appreciated that article. It’s a process. The born again are set apart, and yet not so completely or permanently that they cannot upset or compromise that status, that relationship with God. We must remain in Him, we must work out our salvation, responding to and doing His will as best we can. We must persevere.

 

[ozso]

Sounds rather consistent to me. Man’s will is involved. He can get on board, responding to Gods initiative, to His calling, or not. Then he can stay on board, or not. God does everything to draw and keep us but ultimately does not override the human will, simply because He wants it involved, and increasingly so. Otherwise, again, He would’ve just stocked heaven with whoever He wants there, maybe everyone?- and/or stocked hell with the rest. Instead it’s a journey, a process, and a good one.

How do you stay on board?

 

[ozso]

I prefer the explanation from this Christian article instead.

Spiritual Birth - Bible Study and Christian Teaching on What Does It Mean to Be Born Again - Biblical Teachings

fhansen's Catholic views on salvation sound much like yours BH.

 

[fhansen]

We remain in Him. This means more than saying I believe, or thinking I’m saved, but acting, doing His will, continuing to pray and to seek Him more, growing in holiness, overcoming sin, doing good, all the result of remaining in Him, living by the Spirit. The relationship changes; there will be drier periods where we’re farther away and other times where nearness to God may almost seem palpable.

 

[Sidon]

Our justice or righteousness hinges on our willingness to receive it, to receive Him.

You would do better to post their theology, as when you try to paraphrase it, you mangle it into incoherency.

So, yes, Salvation is a Gift, and God offers it for free, to anyone and everyone.
To receive it, is to believe it.

 

[ozso]

We remain in Him. This means more than saying I believe, or thinking I’m saved, but acting, doing His will, continuing to pray and to seek Him more, growing in holiness, overcoming sin, doing good, all the result of remaining in Him, living by the Spirit. The relationship changes; there will be drier periods where we’re farther away and other times where nearness to God may almost seem palpable.

What you said, I've experienced. But I've always thought of it as an ongoing relationship as opposed to me keeping myself saved.
The way you put it in the context of maintaining salvation, it still seems hazy as to how much of that is the Holy Spirit transforming you vs how well you perform to make the transformation happen.

 

[Sidon]

I prefer the explanation from this Christian article instead.

I read some of it, and some of it is very flawed, so, its not what i would personally recommend, unless i got a kick out of trying to confuse believers.
I dont, so that is why my Teaching is very specific and does not mislead.

So...Here is one of the errors.. in your article, and its a biggie.

• """"""""""Spiritual birth is produced by the will of God. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). """""""""""""

So, whoever wrote this, does not know what they are talking about.
What they have done here is confused the fact that its God's "will for all to be saved", by stating that this "will" is how God causes the new birth,.....and that is nonsense and anti-scriptural.
Im sure there is more false theology in your article, but that is so bad that i didn't need to look for worse.

Here is the reality.
God's will is that all would trust in Jesus, but its the SPIRIT of God, and not the "will" of God, that causes the new birth.

 

[Sidon]

What you said, I've experienced. But I've always thought of it as an ongoing relationship as opposed to me keeping myself saved.
The way you put it in the context of maintaining salvation, it still seems hazy as to how much of that is the Holy Spirit transforming you vs how well you perform to make the transformation happen.

You have made a very thoughtful inquiry, once again.
So, i need to eat brkfast, as im just out of the gym and came here first and responded to about 15-20 posts, and now that ive read yours, im going to write a simple thread related to your pondering, right after i have something to eat.

Thx for the motivation.



-S