How to Explain These Verses?

[Dave-W]

Could be. However, the passage in reference is talking about eating animals...

Only one of the 4 points is about eating.

Acts 15:19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”​

These are the specific prohibitions:

1. abstain from things contaminated by idols
2. from fornication
3. from what is strangled
4. from blood

Number 3 is the only one specifically talking about food.

There are 3 possible understandings of #4: not eating meat with the blood still in it, not having sex during menses, or not shedding innocent blood. (murder)

The first option is already covered by not eating strangled meat (from which the blood cannot be removed). The second option is already covered by prohibiting fornication - Gr inappropriate contentia - which meant anything that violated the Torah's sexual prohibitions; including sex during "blood" or menses. So that leaves only "shedding of innocent blood." It also happens to encompass 3 of the 10 commandments: No gods before Him, no adultery, no murder.

 

[tampasteve]

You will need to demonstrate that the first century gentiles, attended synagogues to celebrate the resurrection of the Christ. I remember Paul preaching the gospel in a synagogue and gentiles attending that synagogue to hear Paul preach. I am not sure where the scripture mentions gentile believers attending synagogues to celebrate?

I do not need to demonstrate that they attended synagogues to "celebrate the resurrection of Christ" because they did not, they went to worship G-d and often met on Sundays to remember Yeshua. One must remember that the separation from Judaism was a gradual process that took several hundred years to complete. 1st century believers attended Jewish synagogues and worshiped with Jews because they were a sect of Judaism. The gentiles also attended and this is well documented. Of course there were places without synagogues that the gentiles did not attend synagogue, but they still worshiped on the Sabbath, read from the Torah, and kept the Acts guidelines. But to give you a few verses that mention "Greeks" or "G-d Fearers" in the synagogues:
Acts 13: 14-16, 26, 43, 48
Acts 14:1-2
Acts 17:1-4
Acts 18:4
And almost certainly the Ephesians and Thessalonians based on the audience being written to.

Hello Bob.

You may need to read the Bible more carefully.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

Acts 13:39
And through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law.

Galatians 2:19
19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Galatians 3:24-25
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Ephesians 2:15
By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace.

1 Timothy 1:9
Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers.

Hebrews 7:18-19
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was.

We can debate about the "law" and to what extent gentile believers are under it, but in terms of Sabbath observance (at minimum just worshiping on Sabbath) it really is scriptural from the 10 commandments onward that the Sabbath is G-d's day. If we are going to start saying that is invalidated then what other parts of the 10 commandments are invalidated? There is not much debate among Christianity that the 10 commandments are valid, so why take that one out? Sure we can say that the Sabbath moved to Sunday, and if that is what you believe then that is fine, I do not believe one is sinning to celebrate on Sunday. However, the scriptural, historic, archaeological, histories all agree that a Saturday Sabbath is what the early believers kept, both gentile and Jew and it was later moved to Sunday for a variety of reasons.

 

[tampasteve]

Only one of the 4 points is about eating.

Acts 15:19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”​

These are the specific prohibitions:

1. abstain from things contaminated by idols
2. from fornication
3. from what is strangled
4. from blood

Number 3 is the only one specifically talking about food.

The way I understand it is that the more "obvious" sins are left out, murder being one. Being as this was written to gentiles, they would have been instructing them to turn from certain ways, things that were common in Roman era. They did not need to say to not kill, etc. They way I read it the "blood" is related back to Lev. 17:11.

There are 3 possible understandings of #4: not eating meat with the blood still in it, not having sex during menses, or not shedding innocent blood. (murder)

The first option is already covered by not eating strangled meat (from which the blood cannot be removed). The second option is already covered by prohibiting fornication - Gr inappropriate contentia - which meant anything that violated the Torah's sexual prohibitions; including sex during "blood" or menses. So that leaves only "shedding of innocent blood." It also happens to encompass 3 of the 10 commandments: No gods before Him, no adultery, no murder.

Even if this is the intended meaning would that not still mean that a kosher slaughter is the desired outcome?

 

[Dave-W]

The way I understand it is that

But is that they way James meant it, and was it how the Gentile churches took it?

With the Noachide laws being formulated at that time, and James being Rosh Yeshiva of one of the Pharisee schools in Jerusalem also at that time, I do not see how it could be taken apart from the Noachide laws.

Besides, the laws in Leviticus apply ONLY to Jews/Israelites; NOT gentiles. The ruling of the council in Acts 15 applies ONLY to Gentile believers. That is clarified in Acts 21.

 

[tampasteve]

But is that they way James meant it, and was it how the Gentile churches took it?

According to historical evidence, yes, that is how the gentiles took it. Taken in conjunction with Didache 6:2-3 it would imply that it is best to keep what we can, which would include laws of kashrut.

With the Noachide laws being formulated at that time, and James being Rosh Yeshiva of one of the Pharisee schools in Jerusalem also at that time, I do not see how it could be taken apart from the Noachide laws.

Not taken apart from them, in conjunction to them, as part of the expansion of them for believers. The Noahide laws are universal, applying to non-followers of The Way as well.

Besides, the laws in Leviticus apply ONLY to Jews/Israelites; NOT gentiles. The ruling of the council in Acts 15 applies ONLY to Gentile believers. That is clarified in Acts 21.

Agreed. But we are to look to scripture to clarify scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

In addition -- consider this.

Acts 18:4 believing Jews and gentiles gather "every Sabbath" to hear Gospel preaching. Instead of "heard the gospel and then started attending week-day-1 services instead".

And in Isaiah 56:5-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

In Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
Rev 14:12 'the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
Ex 20:10 "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)"
Ex 20:11 Sabbath was made on day 7 of creation week - long before the first Jew

Some argue that the Ten Commandments are "just for Jews" because that is what it says in Exodus 20:1-3
Some argue that the New Covenant is "Just for Jews" because that is what it says it is for in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and in Hebrews 8:6-12

But we all know that it is wrong for Christians to "take God's name in vain" and not "just Jews".
And we all know that the Christians are under the NEW Covenant and not "Just believing Jews"

=======================================

You can ignore the history of the church if you wish, but in doing so you miss the point. The point being that Gentiles were never under the law, Gentiles were not required to honor a Sabbath day. .

Until you read the actual Bible in places like Isaiah 56:5-8 and Isaiah 66:23 and Mark 2:27

Bible details that even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of Faith, and D.L. Moody and almost every Bible scholar on the planet -- will admit to.

Hello Bob.

You may need to read the Bible more carefully.

As you proceed to ignore every text in the post you just responded too?

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

Fine. Romans 2

Even the gentiles with no Bible at all are under the same Holy Spirit influence that "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Rom 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


----------------------

And your point??

 

[klutedavid]

In addition -- consider this.

Acts 18:4 believing Jews and gentiles gather "every Sabbath" to hear Gospel preaching. Instead of "heard the gospel and then started attending week-day-1 services instead".

And in Isaiah 56:5-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

In Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
Rev 14:12 'the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
Ex 20:10 "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)"
Ex 20:11 Sabbath was made on day 7 of creation week - long before the first Jew

Some argue that the Ten Commandments are "just for Jews" because that is what it says in Exodus 20:1-3
Some argue that the New Covenant is "Just for Jews" because that is what it says it is for in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and in Hebrews 8:6-12

But we all know that it is wrong for Christians to "take God's name in vain" and not "just Jews".
And we all know that the Christians are under the NEW Covenant and not "Just believing Jews"

=======================================



Until you read the actual Bible in places like Isaiah 56:5-8 and Isaiah 66:23 and Mark 2:27

Bible details that even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of Faith, and D.L. Moody and almost every Bible scholar on the planet -- will admit to.



As you proceed to ignore every text in the post you just responded too?



Fine. Romans 2

Even the gentiles with no Bible at all are under the same Holy Spirit influence that "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Rom 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


----------------------

And your point??

Hello Bob.

My point follows.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day.

These people in Troas that Paul visited, were gathered together not for a day of rest, as some folk might have been taught. These people at Troas were gathered to break bread, to remember what Christ has done for them, they were sharing in the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

Many lack the ability to see the spiritual fulfillment of the Old Testament shadows by Jesus Christ.

The outward, physical circumcision on the eigth day, the shadow, became the circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The outward, physical day of weekly rest, the Sabbath, once again a shadow, became the eternal rest in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 4:9
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

The entire Old Testament was nothing more than a complex shadow, only lit with the arrival of the promised One.

John 8:12
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

All the shadows have gone, the entire law has become obsolete in Christ.

 

[Dave-W]

My point follows.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day.

These people in Troas that Paul visited, were gathered together not for a day of rest, as some folk might have been taught. These people at Troas were gathered to break bread, to remember what Christ has done for them, they were sharing in the body of Christ.

That was a havdala (separation) ceremony - which seemed to be a favorite of the Early Jewish believers. Of course the Gentiles met with them as well. It takes place at sundown on Saturday evening and marks the separation between the Sabbath and the six work days.

 

[Dave-W]

All the shadows have gone, the entire law has become obsolete in Christ.

Unbiblical.

 

[tampasteve]

All the shadows have gone, the entire law has become obsolete in Christ.

Not only is that not biblical, it is contrary to what scripture and what Jesus Himself tells us about following Torah and the eternalness of the Aaronic covenant. It is eternal in this world, to be replaced in the world to come. Jesus did not have a problem with the Torah, He kept it perfectly, he had a problem with the hypocrisy. *Note, I am not saying that gentiles have to keep the full Torah, just that it is not annulled.*

Sirach 45:7 He made an eternal covenant with him, giving him the privilege of serving as priest to the Lord's people.

Num 25:13 and it shall be to him and to his descendants after him the covenant of a perpetual priesthood

Exodus 29:9 Aaron and his sons, and bind caps on them, and they shall have the priesthood by a perpetual statute.

Exodus 40:15 .....and their anointing will qualify them for a perpetual priesthood throughout their generations.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you,but not the works they do.

Mat 23:2 2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.

Mat 23:34 I will send prophets and wise people and experts in the Law of Moses to you.

Mat 5:17 17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

James 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the Torah and judges the Torah. But if you judge the Torah, you are not a doer of the Torah, but a judge.

1 Tim 1:8-11 But we know that the Torah is good if one uses it legitimately. 9 knowing that the Torah is not given for a tzaddik but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful....,

 

[BobRyan]

In addition -- consider this.

Acts 18:4 believing Jews and gentiles gather "every Sabbath" to hear Gospel preaching. Instead of "heard the gospel and then started attending week-day-1 services instead".

And in Isaiah 56:5-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

In Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
Rev 14:12 'the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
Ex 20:10 "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)"
Ex 20:11 Sabbath was made on day 7 of creation week - long before the first Jew

Some argue that the Ten Commandments are "just for Jews" because that is what it says in Exodus 20:1-3
Some argue that the New Covenant is "Just for Jews" because that is what it says it is for in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and in Hebrews 8:6-12

But we all know that it is wrong for Christians to "take God's name in vain" and not "just Jews".
And we all know that the Christians are under the NEW Covenant and not "Just believing Jews"

=======================================

You can ignore the history of the church if you wish, but in doing so you miss the point. The point being that Gentiles were never under the law, Gentiles were not required to honor a Sabbath day. .

Until you read the actual Bible in places like Isaiah 56:5-8 and Isaiah 66:23 and Mark 2:27

Bible details that even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of Faith, and D.L. Moody and almost every Bible scholar on the planet -- will admit to.

Hello Bob.

You may need to read the Bible more carefully.

As you proceed to ignore every text in the post you just responded too?

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

Fine. Romans 2

Even the gentiles with no Bible at all are under the same Holy Spirit influence that "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Rom 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


----------------------

And your point??

Hello Bob.

My point follows.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day.

So then your "point" that you raised in Romans 2?? is that you want to talk about "Acts 20" instead??

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The outward, physical day of weekly rest, the Sabbath..

Is not mentioned in Romans 2...
Just like "do not take God's name in vain" is not mentioned in Romans 2.

you seem to be in search of something.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day.

These people in Troas that Paul visited, were gathered together not for a day of rest, as some folk might have been taught. These people at Troas were gathered to break bread, to remember what Christ has done for them, they were sharing in the body of Christ.
.

Sadly they do not call it "the Lord's Day" in Acts 20 NOR do they say "we gathered to break bread as we do every week-day-1".

Rather the "gathering" was because Paul was departing - it was a singular farewell service for Paul.

By contrast "EVERY Sabbath" Acts 18:4 gathering for worship and Gospel preaching.

 

[Dave-W]

Sadly they do not call it "the Lord's Day" in Acts 20 NOR do they say "we gathered to break bread as we do every week-day-1".

It was a havdalah service - at the end of Sabbath - Saturday evening at dusk. That was a common ceremony held by the first century Jewish believers (and the gentiles with them)

By contrast "EVERY Sabbath" Acts 18:4 gathering for worship and Gospel preaching.

 

[klutedavid]

I do not need to demonstrate that they attended synagogues to "celebrate the resurrection of Christ" because they did not, they went to worship G-d and often met on Sundays to remember Yeshua. One must remember that the separation from Judaism was a gradual process that took several hundred years to complete. 1st century believers attended Jewish synagogues and worshiped with Jews because they were a sect of Judaism. The gentiles also attended and this is well documented. Of course there were places without synagogues that the gentiles did not attend synagogue, but they still worshiped on the Sabbath, read from the Torah, and kept the Acts guidelines. But to give you a few verses that mention "Greeks" or "G-d Fearers" in the synagogues:
Acts 13: 14-16, 26, 43, 48
Acts 14:1-2
Acts 17:1-4
Acts 18:4
And almost certainly the Ephesians and Thessalonians based on the audience being written to.



We can debate about the "law" and to what extent gentile believers are under it, but in terms of Sabbath observance (at minimum just worshiping on Sabbath) it really is scriptural from the 10 commandments onward that the Sabbath is G-d's day. If we are going to start saying that is invalidated then what other parts of the 10 commandments are invalidated? There is not much debate among Christianity that the 10 commandments are valid, so why take that one out? Sure we can say that the Sabbath moved to Sunday, and if that is what you believe then that is fine, I do not believe one is sinning to celebrate on Sunday. However, the scriptural, historic, archaeological, histories all agree that a Saturday Sabbath is what the early believers kept, both gentile and Jew and it was later moved to Sunday for a variety of reasons.

Hello Tampasteve.

Thanks for your reply but your reply was extremely confusing.

We can debate about the "law" and to what extent gentile believers are under it

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

There is no debate concerning the law, Paul said we are not under it.

but in terms of Sabbath observance (at minimum just worshiping on Sabbath) it really is scriptural from the 10 commandments onward that the Sabbath is G-d's day.

Where do you get the idea that worship occurs on the Sabbath. The law states that the Sabbath is a day of rest from work!

Exodus 20:8-10
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

Where does the commandment say worship?

Sure we can say that the Sabbath moved to Sunday

No we can't say that. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week and it will always remain the seventh day of the week.

I do not believe one is sinning to celebrate on Sunday.

The Lord's day was always Sunday, the first day. The early church always celebrated the death and resurrection of the Christ on Sunday morning. Some early churches celebrated both the Sabbath and Sunday.

We gather to celebrate the resurrection when Jesus was witnessed to have risen.

 

[klutedavid]

It was a havdalah service - at the end of Sabbath - Saturday evening at dusk. That was a common ceremony held by the first century Jewish believers (and the gentiles with them)

Hello Dave-W.

Where does the text say 'havdalah service', or is that just your idea?

 

[klutedavid]

Sadly they do not call it "the Lord's Day" in Acts 20 NOR do they say "we gathered to break bread as we do every week-day-1".

Rather the "gathering" was because Paul was departing - it was a singular farewell service for Paul.

By contrast "EVERY Sabbath" Acts 18:4 gathering for worship and Gospel preaching.

Hello Bob.

Where in the Sabbath commandment does it say 'worship'?

Exodus 20:8-10
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

You must have a different translation.

 

[klutedavid]

Not only is that not biblical, it is contrary to what scripture and what Jesus Himself tells us about following Torah and the eternalness of the Aaronic covenant. It is eternal in this world, to be replaced in the world to come. Jesus did not have a problem with the Torah, He kept it perfectly, he had a problem with the hypocrisy. *Note, I am not saying that gentiles have to keep the full Torah, just that it is not annulled.

I will ask you a simple question.

Have you annulled six hundred laws or not?

 

[tampasteve]

Hello Tampasteve.

Thanks for your reply but your reply was extremely confusing.

Sorry for being "extremely" confusing, I will try and keep it mildly confusing.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

There is no debate concerning the law, Paul said we are not under it.

Paul also kept the Law, as has been shown. Paul recommended other Jews keep the Law, as has been shown. Being that as it is there must be more to this statement, yes? In this chapter Paul is speaking about how the Spirit keeps us on the right path. If the Spirit is keeping us on the right path we will avoid things against the Torah and have no need for the Law. But we all fall short, hence the need for the Spirit and Law.

Where do you get the idea that worship occurs on the Sabbath. The law states that the Sabbath is a day of rest from work!

Exodus 20:8-10
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

Where does the commandment say worship?

Traditionally Jewish people gathered on the Sabbath for services, Jesus did the same as did the Apostles. The verses have been pointed out in this thread so I am not going to re post them. When the Temple stood there were daily services, which the Apostles and Jerusalem community participated in. In the diaspora the Jews and G_d-Fearers attended Sabbath services.

No we can't say that. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week and it will always remain the seventh day of the week.

The Sabbath is and has always been our Friday at sundown to our Saturday at sundown. We can (and people do) debate as to the numbering and how to get there, but the Jewish calendar is clear on what day the Sabbath is.

The Lord's day was always Sunday, the first day. The early church always celebrated the death and resurrection of the Christ on Sunday morning. Some early churches celebrated both the Sabbath and Sunday.

I do not think I ever debated this, or if I did I did not mean it so. But to clarify, we know the early church celebrated Sabbath in synagogues, and we know that some of the believers were also celebrating a Sunday service. Likely the Sunday service evolved from the Sabbath conclusion celebration (havdalah service as Dave pointed out), a Tradition celebrated by Jewish people to this day.

We gather to celebrate the resurrection when Jesus was witnessed to have risen.

Sure, nothing to debate there.

I will ask you a simple question.

Have you annulled six hundred laws or not?

No, being as I am not Jewish I am not bound by them. But they are not annulled for Jewish people either so long as this world stands and until the next is here.

 

[Dave-W]

Hello Dave-W.

Where does the text say 'havdalah service', or is that just your idea?

The text does not say it but history tells us havdalah was a popular service among jewish believers in the first century. (more so than in normative Judaism) The description of the timing fits it perfectly.

 

[klutedavid]

Sorry for being "extremely" confusing, I will try and keep it mildly confusing.

It won't be confusing Steve, if you avoid adding words like 'worship' to Sabbath commandments.

Paul also kept the Law, as has been shown. Paul recommended other Jews keep the Law, as has been shown. Being that as it is there must be more to this statement, yes? In this chapter Paul is speaking about how the Spirit keeps us on the right path. If the Spirit is keeping us on the right path we will avoid things against the Torah and have no need for the Law. But we all fall short, hence the need for the Spirit and Law.

Now that is a another contradiction.

Here is what you wrote.

If the Spirit is keeping us on the right path we will avoid things against the Torah and have no need for the Law. But we all fall short, hence the need for the Spirit and Law.

Please make up your mind, you can't say, 'no need for the law' and 'need for the law', in the same sentence. Either a Gentile is under the law and the whole law for that matter,
or a Gentile was never under the law.

Look Steve, sin is transgression of the law, hence, all disobedience to the prophets and the law is sin. This includes all of the 613 laws specified in Exodus and Leviticus, as well as all the sins listed by the prophets.

Unless of course you believe that sorcery, e.t.c, is not sinful?

This list of transgressions does not include the sayings of Jesus which are also sin if disobeyed.

Traditionally Jewish people gathered on the Sabbath for services, Jesus did the same as did the Apostles. The verses have been pointed out in this thread so I am not going to re post them. When the Temple stood there were daily services, which the Apostles and Jerusalem community participated in. In the diaspora the Jews and G_d-Fearers attended Sabbath services.

The Sabbath is fundamentally a day of rest, which is what the commandment specifies.
If you attend a Sabbath service on this day of rest from work, this is not a celebration day. Jews do not celebrate the resurrection of the Christ.

You must get this clear in your mind, Christians celebrated the day of the resurrection.

Jews performed a day of rest from work on the Sabbath.

These are different events.

The Sabbath is and has always been our Friday at sundown to our Saturday at sundown. We can (and people do) debate as to the numbering and how to get there, but the Jewish calendar is clear on what day the Sabbath is.

I do not follow a Jewish calendar.

But to clarify, we know the early church celebrated Sabbath in synagogues, and we know that some of the believers were also celebrating a Sunday service. Likely the Sunday service evolved from the Sabbath conclusion celebration (havdalah service as Dave pointed out), a Tradition celebrated by Jewish people to this day.

Paul may have preached the Gospel in synagogues, but Christians could never celebrate the resurrected Christ in a synagogue. Jews rest on the Sabbath, Jews don't celebrate anything on the sabbath day.

No, being as I am not Jewish I am not bound by them. But they are not annulled for Jewish people either so long as this world stands and until the next is here.

Of course you are not under the Torah, otherwise you would need to be circumcised.