How to Explain These Verses?

klutedavid

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Hello Gary.
I'm guessing this is your response to all the questions I asked because you can't answer the questions without admitting that breaking those commandments shows a lack of love for God and for our fellow man.
That is the point, we are sinners not righteous.

The law shows us what we are, law breakers.

Christian or non Christian you will break the law.

Your trying to tell me that you don't lust after pretty girls?

You break the law and that is obvious, it is merely a question of by how much that you transgress the law. Surely your not one of those people that falsely claim that they don't break the law?

You honestly don't measure how much you love God, according to your repetitive law breaking?
Otherwise you would have shown me exactly how breaking the commandments expresses love for both God and man.
You can't help but break the law, that is why the law is there, so you cling to the messiah when He arrives. Only Jesus kept the law.
Who said anyone would be standing proudly at judgment day because they had kept the law on their own? Where did I even come close to implying such a thing? You have ignored the entire thrust of my argument which is that keeping the law is possible only because the Holy Spirit writes it in our hearts, transforming us back into God's image. That's nothing we can glory in, for we cannot do it ourselves. We are incapble of doing that. Only a power outside of us can change our very natures. As the Bible says, the leopard cannot change his spots or the Ethiopian his skin, therefore neither can we who are accustomed to do evil do good. We need a power over and above us to perform that within us. That's Paul's point in 2 Corinthians 3: 3-8. The Holy Spirit had to write the law in his heart, the seat of his motives and ways of thought, for him to become an effective minister of the new covenant. When He does that the law is no longer a ministry of death. We have God's word on this.
Sorry to inform you that you must crucify your passions and desires.

You were baptized into the death of the Christ, you must die.
What a promise. God will cause us to live within his statutes and keep His judgments, and do them.
Only by the infilling of the Holy Spirit will the foundation of the law (love), be expressed towards others. Not the letter of the law, the reason for the law, i.e., love.
Paul also shows us who will not get to heaven.
Those that do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Only those that call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Notice that all the things Paul lists are violations of the 10 commandments. Fortunately for us he shows us another list. Notice that this is another one of God's promises to us that we can keep the commandments of God because of His power to change us.
What you said is not true, the list contains more sins than the letter of the law.

Witchcraft is not in the ten commandments.
Paul says the fruit of the Spirit working in our lives results in a life that violates no law. And he shows us what the Spirit's work is in 2Corinthians 3:3-8. It is the writing of the law in our hearts.
Incorrect reading of the scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The letter of the law kills, why don't you understand this?

Not of the letter!
Jesus tells us how this keeping of the law of God works in real life.
No He does not say that, Jesus came for those who broke the law, sinners!
Practicing the Golden Rule is the keeping of the law of God. You know, all those things written in the 10 commandments that you wouldn't want done to you: stolen from, murdered, lied about, having your children disrespect you, having your neighbor covet not only all you own but your wife too, having your wife sleep around on you. Treating others in the manner described by the 10 commandments is the way to life for it is living according to the principle of love.
What do you mean by 'you wouldn't want done to you', that is everyday life. I spend every day trying to avoid getting slammed by law breakers.
The 10 commandments are the expression of the principle of love for our fellow man, and I'd hate to have to argue with Jesus about this.
The fourth commandment has nothing to do with loving others.
 
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Dave-W

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Hello Dave.

The Sabbath at it's heart is a day of rest, a day to remember the creator.
The first day when Jesus arose, is the day we remember our savior.
Different days for different reasons.
The Sabbath was broken by everyone, none will stand on judgement day, including those who believe that they follow the letter of the law.
Lev 23.3 “‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord.

"Sacred assembly" = worship
 
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klutedavid

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Lev 23.3 “‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord.

"Sacred assembly" = worship
Hello Dave.

Just read the text, 'You are not to do any work; wherever you live'.

Don't read into the text.
 
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Dave-W

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Hello Dave.

Just read the text, 'You are not to do any work; wherever you live'.

Don't read into the text.
And forget the sacred assembly part?
 
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klutedavid

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And forget the sacred assembly part?
Hello Dave.

Like I said, a solemn day of rest.

Please read the following.

What is solemn assembly?

The precise Hebrew word for solemn assembly (‘ăsar) indicates, “a day of restraint”, from work. The root of the word, however, connotes the keeping of tradition. The image associated with the word is that of keeping something restrained or held fast. (presbyterianmission.org)

Leviticus 23:36 (KJV)
36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

What is a holy convocation?

In Hebrew, the word “convocation” means “miqra”, spoken as “Mik-raw” (Strong’s concordance number 4744). In Hebrew, this word means “rehearsal”. What does the word rehearsal mean? Rehearsal is defined as “the act of practicing in preparation for an event”. The term “miqra” also means to “read and understand” the laws of Elohim (God in English). We can clearly understand that the word “convocation” is firstly to practise, secondly to read and understand the laws of Elohim. In a nutshell, we can say that the term “convocation” means to set apart an appointed time (Sabbath/Festivals) to Elohim and to read, understand His laws so that you can use His laws in your life. (messianicjews.com)

Leviticus 23:36 (KJV)
36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. (messianicjews.com)
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Sadly they do not call it "the Lord's Day" in Acts 20 NOR do they say "we gathered to break bread as we do every week-day-1".

Rather the "gathering" was because Paul was departing - it was a singular farewell service for Paul.

By contrast "EVERY Sabbath" Acts 18:4 gathering for worship and Gospel preaching.

Attention BobRyan.

Acts 18:4
And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

There is no mention of worship in this verse, where did you get that idea from.

Paul preached the Gospel in synagogues but this has nothing to do with celebrating the resurrected Christ!


By contrast "EVERY Sabbath" Acts 18:4 gathering for worship and Gospel preaching

" 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."

And of course people who actually read the bible at that time would know that Sabbath is a day of "Holy convocation" - "solemn assembly" - just as we still do it to this very day both Jews and Christians

klutedavid said "There is no mention of worship in this verse, where did you get that idea from."

No need to say it as everyone knew what went on in the synagogues.

It is kind of like saying that because the text does not specifically say so - no one was eating at the restaurant.

Interesting point - but I think it is even more helpful for klutedavid to be stuck out on the limb arguing that the Sabbath services in the synagogues most certainly do not include any worship.

I think that is a great place to draw the line of "well ok - we differ" since every human on the planet knows they are gathering in the Synagogue on Sabbath to worship. I don't mind that being the defining line for our "differences gap".
 
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BobRyan

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Hello Dave.

Like I said, a solemn day of rest.

and "holy convocation"


What is solemn assembly?

Yeah... hmmm wonder what that is.

3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

By contrast there is NO command at all for "solemn assembly" or 'holy convocation' on every "week day 1".

So how "intriguing" that with all the Bible texts on gathering for worship to bow down before God on every Sabbath Isaiah 66:23 and texts about "holy convocation" very Sabbath Lev 23:3 you will get something like "yeah but what exactly precisely really really does it mean I mean for me that is maybe nothing"

And yet with no text at all "well yes I should worship God every week-day-1... or Christians should do that every week day 1"
 
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tall73

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Certainly the command indicates resting. But it is pretty clear that people would worship on that day as well.

Another text to consider is 2 Kings 4:

22 Then she called to her husband, and said, “Please send me one of the young men and one of the donkeys, that I may run to the man of God and come back.”
23 So he said, “Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath.”

The Shunamite woman indicates her intention to go see the man of God. Her husband thinks this is unusual as it is not a Sabbath or New Moon. She would not need to go to see the man of God to rest. She could do that at home. But it suggests she would travel there for the New Moon and Sabbath. The implication is for worship. Now if you think this is adding to the text, explain why she would need to travel a distance that requires saddling a donkey if she is just resting.

 
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tall73

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Please make up your mind, you can't say, 'no need for the law' and 'need for the law', in the same sentence. Either a Gentile is under the law and the whole law for that matter,
or a Gentile was never under the law.

Actually Steve was noting that we walk in the Spirit and naturally keep the righteous requirements of the law when Christ lives out His life in us.

But Steve also noted the principle found here:

I Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

The law, while given to a particular people, in the covenant, still contained moral principles which can still point out sin to sinners.


 
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tall73

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Paul may have preached the Gospel in synagogues, but Christians could never celebrate the resurrected Christ in a synagogue. Jews rest on the Sabbath, Jews don't celebrate anything on the sabbath day.

In some synagogues they were kicked out right away. In others they were not. However, Christians were going to synagogues, or else Paul wouldn't be going to them to look for them while he was still persecuting them:

9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.


As Steve noted earlier the Jewish Christians went on keeping the whole law:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they willc]">[c] hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,d]">[d] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”
 
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tampasteve

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IJews don't celebrate anything on the sabbath day.
I dropped out of this discussion last week because it was not going anywhere, clearly. But I just wanted to add one last comment. If you really believe that Jews do not celebrate anything on the Sabbath you are wildly mistaken about the religion, practice, and beliefs they hold - and where our faith originated. The Sabbath is a weekly Holy Day to be celebrated with fervor and love of HaShem, to feast with friends and family, to study His word, to pray in community, and to rest.

I pity your beliefs if you really believe that they "don't celebrate anything on the Sabbath" and want to hold onto it.
 
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Dave-W

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Christians could never celebrate the resurrected Christ in a synagogue. Jews rest on the Sabbath, Jews don't celebrate anything on the sabbath day.
You clearly have never been to a sabbath service in a Jewish synagogue, traditional or Messianic.
You have opinions that have no basis in reality.
 
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Dave-W

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There is no mention of worship in this verse, where did you get that idea from
"They met at their favorite restaurant."

There is no mention of eating food in that sentence. But ....
 
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BobRyan

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Certainly the command indicates resting. But it is pretty clear that people would worship on that day as well.

True. Especially given that it is "to be kept holy to the Lord" - and given that at Sinai Moses also writes that it is a day of "holy convocation" - solemn assembly - in Lev 23:3.
 
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BobRyan

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In some synagogues they were kicked out right away. In others they were not. However, Christians were going to synagogues, or else Paul wouldn't be going to them to look for them while he was still persecuting them:

Good point.

And as we see in Acts 18 - they are coming back "every Sabbath" for more Gospel preaching instead of immediately engaging in Sabbath breaking upon hearing Paul's sermon and accepting it.

Paul himself argues under oath that not only is he not preaching against the moral law of God as we find it in the Ten Commandments - he is not even preaching against the ceremonial law.
 
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Gary K

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Hello Gary.

That is the point, we are sinners not righteous.

The law shows us what we are, law breakers.

Christian or non Christian you will break the law.

Your trying to tell me that you don't lust after pretty girls?

You break the law and that is obvious, it is merely a question of by how much that you transgress the law. Surely your not one of those people that falsely claim that they don't break the law?

You honestly don't measure how much you love God, according to your repetitive law breaking?

You can't help but break the law, that is why the law is there, so you cling to the messiah when He arrives. Only Jesus kept the law.

Sorry to inform you that you must crucify your passions and desires.

You were baptized into the death of the Christ, you must die.

Only by the infilling of the Holy Spirit will the foundation of the law (love), be expressed towards others. Not the letter of the law, the reason for the law, i.e., love.

Those that do not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Only those that call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

What you said is not true, the list contains more sins than the letter of the law.

Witchcraft is not in the ten commandments.

Incorrect reading of the scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The letter of the law kills, why don't you understand this?

Not of the letter!

No He does not say that, Jesus came for those who broke the law, sinners!

What do you mean by 'you wouldn't want done to you', that is everyday life. I spend every day trying to avoid getting slammed by law breakers.

The fourth commandment has nothing to do with loving others.

klute,

You still haven't shown me how breaking the 10 commandments is the expression of love. You have ignored my request, and danced around it, but haven't answered it. Why is that?

You also like to argue with Jesus. Why? He said that the Golden Rule is the keeping of the law and the prophets. Yet you deny it. Why is that? Do you know more than God?

Where, klute, did I ever say I am perfect? Show this to me. I said, only through the Spirit writing the law in my innermost being am I capable of obeying the law of God. You know, the "fruit of the Spirit" that Paul listed in the verses I quoted from Galatians.

Witchcraft isn't breaking the 10 commandments? Are you serious? What do you call worshipping some being other than God? You know, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them.
1Samuel 15: 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

And what about all those other sins Paul listed in Galatians 5: 19-21? Paul says that "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Everything on that list breaks the 10 commandments. The only possible reading of those verses is that our hearts must be changed so that we do not break the 10 commandments. And Paul shows us how this is possible by showing the fruit of the Spirit.

I have to chuckle at you telling me I must crucify my lusts, and then in the next breath denying that it is possible while going so far as to deny that practicing witchcraft doesn't break the 10 commandments. What do you think the keeping of the commandments is if it is not the crucifying of our lusts? Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Sounds exactly like a group of people who have crucified their lusts for they are, according to God Himself, a group of people who keep the law of God.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and evidence of things not seen. God is not through working with me yet. I have faith in Him that He will work His will in me so that I will keep His law. It is by faith in the promises of God that I see myself able to keep God's law. Do you not remember the words of Jesus? " According to your faith be it unto you." If we fail to believe the promises of God because of what we see here and now, that is doubt. How can you have anything done for you by God when you doubt both His promises and His ability to keep His word?

How can I not understand your isolation of 1Corinthians 3:6? Easy. I read the verse within the context of the surrounding verses which give it a whole other reading and understanding. I also apply the rest of the Bible to my understanding of that verse. Paul denies your reading of that verse repeatedly, and I have shown you text after text that says that.

Lastly, breaking the fourth commandment has nothing to do with loving others? Where do you come up with this? Loving God isn't related to loving our fellow man? How can we truly love our fellow man if we don't love God first? He has to be first in our hearts or it is impossible to love our fellow man. Paul shows us this in Galatians 5 verses 22 and 23. Or do you deny that the love that is the fruit of the Spirit causes us to also love our fellow man? Or is it your position that the fruit of the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, is completely unrelated to any relationship with God?
 
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Gary K

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I'm surprised no one has brought up Acts 13.
14 ¶But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Paul's short sermon starts at verse 17 and continues to verse 41. That passage is a masterpiece of exhibiting how to cover a whole lot of ground in a very short time. Paul doesn't use a single extraneous word.

The very next verse tells us what happens after the sermon.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

I'm pretty sure that the Jews participating in this thread can tell us that this passage describes a typical worship service in which the law and prophets are read. It also describes a historical Christian worship service. I say historical because it doesn't describe what happens in a lot of Christian services today. The Bible has fallen by the wayside in many of them.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Gary.
You still haven't shown me how breaking the 10 commandments is the expression of love. You have ignored my request, and danced around it, but haven't answered it. Why is that?
Breaking the commandment to not steal, is definitely something a loving person would not do. Obeying the commandment to not steal, is not necessarily an act of love. Lots of self righteous people never steal anything, they are never loving of others, judgmental yes, loving no.
You also like to argue with Jesus. Why?
Not sure why you assume that?
He said that the Golden Rule is the keeping of the law and the prophets. Yet you deny it. Why is that? Do you know more than God?
No one can keep the law and the prophets, only Jesus could fulfill that demand.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Jesus did not say keeping the law is the golden rule, you have it backwards. Jesus said it comes down to the way you treat other people, that is what the law is telling you. You failed point blank to obey the law.
Where, klute, did I ever say I am perfect? Show this to me. I said, only through the Spirit writing the law in my innermost being am I capable of obeying the law of God.
It is not the letter of the law that is written on your heart, God Himself inhabits your heart.
Witchcraft isn't breaking the 10 commandments? Are you serious? What do you call worshipping some being other than God? You know, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them.
Where does it say that witchcraft is worshiping other Gods?

The ten commandments do not mention witchcraft, not sure how you arrived at that idea.

You are under Grace and you are not under the law.
I have to chuckle at you telling me I must crucify my lusts, and then in the next breath denying that it is possible while going so far as to deny that practicing witchcraft doesn't break the 10 commandments. What do you think the keeping of the commandments is if it is not the crucifying of our lusts? Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Sounds exactly like a group of people who have crucified their lusts for they are, according to God Himself, a group of people who keep the law of God.
Attempting to obey the letter of the law, has no impact on the deeply rooted lusts of the flesh. Suppressing the desire to own your neighbors ox, will have no bearing on the way you treat widows and orphans.

You are not under the law!
 
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BobRyan

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Hello Gary.

Breaking the commandment to not steal, is definitely something a loving person would not do.6

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

The wicked "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:7

"This IS the New Covenant... I will write My LAWs on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33
 
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You are not under the law!

The Bible says --

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 because that is what people do who are not under the condemnation of the law as lost sinners.
 
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