How to Explain These Verses?

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I want to hear the traditional SDA point of view about the Sabbath. To be honest, I see both sides in the Saturday vs. Sunday debate.

Those who say that Saturday is no longer required to be observed cite the Romans 14 chapter and the one in Acts about the four laws Gentile believers must follow, and the observance of a Saturday Sabbath is not mentioned.

I understand that from an Adventist point of view, Paul is talking about ceremonial days in Romans 14, but he also mentions eating, so how would you defend a Kosher diet from that?

 

[tampasteve]

The dietary laws in Acts are meant as a minimum for believers. Also, they say to "and from blood, and from what is strangled" which leads many people to say that a kosher slaughter is about the only way to guarantee that we are avoiding blood and animals strangled. There is plenty of evidence from the 1st and 2nd centuries that the early Christians were keeping kosher, at least in meats.

As to a Saturday worship, perhaps it is not required but it is what the early church did and what Jewish people did and do, and as a sect of Judaism, we probably should as well. I personally say there is more evidence on why to keep a Sabbath than to move to Sunday, of which there is little to no scriptural evidence.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

The dietary laws in Acts are meant as a minimum for believers. Also, they say to "and from blood, and from what is strangled" which leads many people to say that a kosher slaughter is about the only way to guarantee that we are avoiding blood and animals strangled. There is plenty of evidence from the 1st and 2nd centuries that the early Christians were keeping kosher, at least in meats.

As to a Saturday worship, perhaps it is not required but it is what the early church did and what Jewish people did and do, and as a sect of Judaism, we probably should as well. I personally say there is more evidence on why to keep a Sabbath than to move to Sunday, of which there is little to no scriptural evidence.

Good points. I agree with your view on the Sabbath. I don’t see it as necessarily a requirement, but I think it can be beneficial. In fact, I plan on observing the Saturday Sabbath for awhile to see if it does draw me closer to God.

 

[Waggles]

read Galatians

 

[klutedavid]

The dietary laws in Acts are meant as a minimum for believers. Also, they say to "and from blood, and from what is strangled" which leads many people to say that a kosher slaughter is about the only way to guarantee that we are avoiding blood and animals strangled. There is plenty of evidence from the 1st and 2nd centuries that the early Christians were keeping kosher, at least in meats.

As to a Saturday worship, perhaps it is not required but it is what the early church did and what Jewish people did and do, and as a sect of Judaism, we probably should as well. I personally say there is more evidence on why to keep a Sabbath than to move to Sunday, of which there is little to no scriptural evidence.

Hello tampasteve.

Why would anyone move the Sabbath to another day?

The first day (Sunday) is the day the Lord was seen as resurrected, that is the day that the early church celebrated.

 

[klutedavid]

The dietary laws in Acts are meant as a minimum for believers. Also, they say to "and from blood, and from what is strangled" which leads many people to say that a kosher slaughter is about the only way to guarantee that we are avoiding blood and animals strangled. There is plenty of evidence from the 1st and 2nd centuries that the early Christians were keeping kosher, at least in meats.

As to a Saturday worship, perhaps it is not required but it is what the early church did and what Jewish people did and do, and as a sect of Judaism, we probably should as well. I personally say there is more evidence on why to keep a Sabbath than to move to Sunday, of which there is little to no scriptural evidence.

Hello Steve.

There is a mountain of evidence that churches in the second and third centuries, honored the first day of the week. You can ignore the history of the church if you wish, but in doing so you miss the point. The point being that Gentiles were never under the law, Gentiles were not required to honor a Sabbath day.

The day of the resurrection is the pivotal day, not some holy day.

 

[tampasteve]

Hello Steve.

There is a mountain of evidence that churches in the second and third centuries, honored the first day of the week. You can ignore the history of the church if you wish, but in doing so you miss the point. The point being that Gentiles were never under the law, Gentiles were not required to honor a Sabbath day.

The day of the resurrection is the pivotal day, not some holy day.

And what of the congregations in the first century, and the centuries of Jewish belief beforehand, and of course the Hebrew scriptures? You mention the second and third centuries, but that leaves out nearly 100 years, years when the Apostles were still with us. I agree that we are not bound to the Sabbath in the same way as Jewish people, but there really is no debate that the 1st century believers celebrated in synagogues on the Sabbath with the rest of the Jewish believers and followers, celebrated the Jewish holidays, and the also had a Sunday gathering of sorts eventually. The Sabbath and Saturday celebration was most likely developed as the norm to distance themselves from the Jewish people, avoid taxes on Jews, etc.

 

[klutedavid]

And what of the congregations in the first century, and the centuries of Jewish belief beforehand, and of course the Hebrew scriptures? You mention the second and third centuries, but that leaves out nearly 100 years, years when the Apostles were still with us. I agree that we are not bound to the Sabbath in the same way as Jewish people, but there really is no debate that the 1st century believers celebrated in synagogues on the Sabbath with the rest of the Jewish believers and followers, celebrated the Jewish holidays, and the also had a Sunday gathering of sorts eventually. The Sabbath and Saturday celebration was most likely developed as the norm to distance themselves from the Jewish people, avoid taxes on Jews, etc.

Hello Steve.

You will need to demonstrate that the first century gentiles, attended synagogues to celebrate the resurrection of the Christ. I remember Paul preaching the gospel in a synagogue and gentiles attending that synagogue to hear Paul preach. I am not sure where the scripture mentions gentile believers attending synagogues to celebrate?

 

[BobRyan]

I want to hear the traditional SDA point of view about the Sabbath. To be honest, I see both sides in the Saturday vs. Sunday debate.

Those who say that Saturday is no longer required to be observed cite the Romans 14 chapter and the one in Acts about the four laws Gentile believers must follow, and the observance of a Saturday Sabbath is not mentioned.

I understand that from an Adventist point of view, Paul is talking about ceremonial days in Romans 14, but he also mentions eating, so how would you defend a Kosher diet from that?

Romans 14 is contrasting eating meat with being vegetarian.

It is not contrasting eating beef vs eating rats.

The Jews were 'required to eat meat' at the very least at their annual feast days and in the case of sin offerings etc.

The text of 1 Cor 8 points to 'weak gentiles' who having recently converted to Christianity still have "weak faith" and who eat vegetables only to avoid eating meat offered to idols.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who say that Saturday is no longer required to be observed cite the Romans 14 chapter and the one in Acts about the four laws Gentile believers must follow, and the observance of a Saturday Sabbath is not mentioned.

Notice that in Acts 15 those four laws do not include essentials like

1. Do not take God's name in vain
2. Honor your father and mother
3. Love God with all your heart.

They are in fact not "a downsized Bible for gentiles" as we probably would all agree.

In Matthew 19 Christ said that we should "Keep the Commandments" if we want to go to heaven. He is asked in that chapter "which ones" and then He gives a sample list - all of which do not show up in Acts 15 for gentiles.

In Romans 13 - Paul gives us Christ's exact same list from Matthew 19 and says they all do apply to gentiles.

In Ephesians 6:2 Paul goes out of his way to pull in the entire unit of TEN - when he points out that the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" in that unique unit of TEN.

 

[BobRyan]

there really is no debate that the 1st century believers celebrated in synagogues on the Sabbath with the rest of the Jewish believers and followers, celebrated the Jewish holidays, and the also had a Sunday gathering of sorts eventually. The Sabbath and Saturday celebration was most likely developed as the norm to distance themselves from the Jewish people, avoid taxes on Jews, etc.

In addition -- consider this.

Acts 18:4 believing Jews and gentiles gather "every Sabbath" to hear Gospel preaching. Instead of "heard the gospel and then started attending week-day-1 services instead".

And in Isaiah 56:5-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.

In Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
Rev 14:12 'the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
Ex 20:10 "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)"
Ex 20:11 Sabbath was made on day 7 of creation week - long before the first Jew

Some argue that the Ten Commandments are "just for Jews" because that is what it says in Exodus 20:1-3
Some argue that the New Covenant is "Just for Jews" because that is what it says it is for in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and in Hebrews 8:6-12

But we all know that it is wrong for Christians to "take God's name in vain" and not "just Jews".
And we all know that the Christians are under the NEW Covenant and not "Just believing Jews"

 

[BobRyan]

You can ignore the history of the church if you wish, but in doing so you miss the point. The point being that Gentiles were never under the law, Gentiles were not required to honor a Sabbath day. .

Until you read the actual Bible in places like Isaiah 56:5-8 and Isaiah 66:23 and Mark 2:27

Bible details that even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of Faith, and D.L. Moody and almost every Bible scholar on the planet -- will admit to.

 

[BobRyan]

read Galatians

yeah! amen! and Romans too!

 

[BobRyan]

Good points. I agree with your view on the Sabbath. I don’t see it as necessarily a requirement, but I think it can be beneficial. In fact, I plan on observing the Saturday Sabbath for awhile to see if it does draw me closer to God.

It will in the same way that obedience is a step towards God and rebellion a step away from it.

So for example - Christians should not take God's name in vain.. it is one of the Ten Commandments.

Not because a lost person could earn their way to heaven if they just stop taking God's name in vain -- but rather because under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 God write's His Law on the heart.

As Paul said in Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW of God"

Notice in Romans 8:4-10 Paul contrasts the saved vs the lost and he says of the lost "they do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed can they" and contrasts that to the saved who walk by the Spirit and fulfill that Law.

Thus it is in the NT that we find "SIN is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 and in that same book John writes "These things I write that you SIN not" 1 John 2:1

 

[BobRyan]

Why would anyone move the Sabbath to another day?
.

Agreed. That is pretty sad for them to transfer it from the day God said "the 7th day" to week-day-1

 

[klutedavid]

Until you read the actual Bible in places like Isaiah 56:5-8 and Isaiah 66:23 and Mark 2:27

Bible details that even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of Faith, and D.L. Moody and almost every Bible scholar on the planet -- will admit to.

Hello Bob.

You may need to read the Bible more carefully.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

Acts 13:39
And through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law.

Galatians 2:19
19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Galatians 3:24-25
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Ephesians 2:15
By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace.

1 Timothy 1:9
Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers.

Hebrews 7:18-19
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Hello Bob.

You may need to read the Bible more carefully.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

Acts 13:39
And through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law.

Galatians 2:19
19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Galatians 3:24-25
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Ephesians 2:15
By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace.

1 Timothy 1:9
Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers.

Hebrews 7:18-19
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was.

I agree we are not under the Law or legalism, but maybe Sabbath observance is something that can be done out of our love for God. It doesn’t have to be legalistic.

 

[Dave-W]

T Also, they say to "and from blood, and from what is strangled" which leads many people to say that a kosher slaughter is about the only way to guarantee that we are avoiding blood and animals strangled. There is plenty of evidence from the 1st and 2nd centuries that the early Christians were keeping kosher, at least in meats.

I take the 4 prohibitions of Acts 15 as based on (or at least related to) the 7 Noachide laws:

The seven Noachide laws, as traditionally enumerated are:

1. Do Not Deny God
2. Do Not Blaspheme God
3. Do Not Murder
4. Do Not Engage in Incestuous, Adulterous or Homosexual Relationships.
5. Do Not Steal
6. Do Not Eat of a Live Animal
7. Establish Courts/Legal System to Ensure Law Obedience

Source: The Seven Noachide Laws

So I take "blood" as short for "shedding of innocent blood" which is how #3 is worded in Hebrew.

 

[Dave-W]

I agree we are not under the Law or legalism, but maybe Sabbath observance is something that can be done out of our love for God. It doesn’t have to be legalistic.

Absolutely.
Observing the Sabbath (or any other command) out of legalism invalidates your obedience.

 

[tampasteve]

I take the 4 prohibitions of Acts 15 as based on (or at least related to) the 7 Noachide laws:

The seven Noachide laws, as traditionally enumerated are:

1. Do Not Deny God
2. Do Not Blaspheme God
3. Do Not Murder
4. Do Not Engage in Incestuous, Adulterous or Homosexual Relationships.
5. Do Not Steal
6. Do Not Eat of a Live Animal
7. Establish Courts/Legal System to Ensure Law Obedience

Source: The Seven Noachide Laws

So I take "blood" as short for "shedding of innocent blood" which is how #3 is worded in Hebrew.

Could be. However, the passage in reference is talking about eating animals....personally I do not see how shedding of innocent blood would relate to slaughtering animals. That and the historic and a textual references to 1st through 3rd century gentile believers buying kosher meats.