How does representation by Adam make any sense?

[SolomonVII]

In a spiritual sense, our individuality is not all who we are. This idea is best described in Jesus' admonition that 'whatever you do to the least of my brother, you do to me'.
In a very real sense, we are all connected, one body in Christ. Even Adam and Eve did not start out as Adam and Eve, but as Adam.
The spiritual believe is that all of humanity was contained within Adam, and in a very real sense we are all of Adam.

The concept of sin includes much more than just the moral failing of the individual. Even now, our own moral failings carry on throughout the generations. Children are shaped by the nature of their parents, from beginning to end. Even in terms of evolution, we shape the human race itself through the choices we make, with those choices that lead to higher survival rates being differentially rewarded with having the propensity for that kind of choice being passed onto our genetic progeny.
Sin does include individual morality of course, and that is the sin we are responsible for as individuals. But the axiom that no man is an island is as true now as it was in the time of Adam. The choices that Adam made became indelibly written into our humanity. Original sin is not our choice or our guilt, but it is the curse we are under.
The thing about life, it is not fair. That is our challenge even now.

 

[SolomonVII]

Do I understand you correctly, eg if my dad is in jail for crime that makes me guilty too just for being his son?

I think the analogy is that if your dad is in jail for a crime, you are disadvantage with the loss of privilege of having a father present. You are not guilty of his crime, but you are in a real sense punished for it. All things that fathers pass on to their children are not going to be a part of your life.

 

[hedrick]

In a very real sense, we are all connected, one body in Christ. Even Adam and Eve did not start out as Adam and Eve, but as Adam.
The spiritual believe is that all of humanity was contained within Adam, and in a very real sense we are all of Adam.

This is a good point. One thing the traditional version of original sin does is emphasize the sin isn't just a matter of individual failures. It's a communal problem. There are patterns of behavior and dysfunctional relationships that are very difficult to resist. God chose a people to deal with, not just a bunch of individuals, and Jesus did the same.

 

[AlexDTX]

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

If a plant is genetically modified, all the succeeding plants from that parent plant will be modified, too. Sin is not just an act it is the change in creation physics calls, entropy. The new birth in Christ is not just a belief, it is the replacement of our spirits which will also be manifested in our souls and bodies when Jesus returns. Christianity is not a religion, it is biology.

 

[συνείδησις]

@συνείδησις , .. just, you will need to explain how you think being spiritually alive is different than being in the state of innocence before "figuratively dying" as a result of resisting the commandment.

I don't give any credence to the notion that people are born spiritually alive. By that I mean having a spirit in perfect union with GOD's spirit; so spiritual death is separation from GOD's spirit. GOD said that Adam would die in the day he ate of the tree. He didn't die physically, so that must mean that he died spiritually by being exiled from GOD's presence.

I don't think that you can convincingly argue that men are born with a spirit in perfect union with the holy spirit. It is reasonable, however, to assume that Adam's children would inherit the same nature that he had, which includes a spirit separated from GOD.

 

[hedrick]

I don't give any credence to the notion that people are born spiritually alive. By that I mean having a spirit in perfect union with GOD's spirit; so spiritual death is separation from GOD's spirit. GOD said that Adam would die in the day he ate of the tree. He didn't die physically, so that must mean that he died spiritually by being exiled from GOD's presence.

I don't think that you can convincingly argue that men are born with a spirit in perfect union with the holy spirit. It is reasonable, however, to assume that Adam's children would inherit the same nature that he had, which includes a spirit separated from GOD.

Of course people aren’t born with a perfect union with God. But spiritually dead?

Some of our theologies have a problem of consistency between adults and children. Jesus used children as an example of faith, and most Christians think that all children are saved. So as they become responsible they become spiritually dead? I don’t believe it.

I am not proposing universalism, as I think Jesus’ statements about judgement rule that out. But I think people start out spiritually OK, and only as they responsibility reject God are they in trouble. Note that when I say spiritually OK I don’t mean somehow perfect so that they merit salvation. But I think whatever grace God gives children continues until an adult intentionally rejects it. Otherwise we end up with a picture of a God that is prejudiced against adults.

 

[συνείδησις]

Of course people aren’t born with a perfect union with God. But spiritually dead?

Some of our theologies have a problem of consistency between adults and children. Jesus used children as an example of faith, and most Christians think that all children are saved. So as they become responsible they become spiritually dead? I don’t believe it.

I am not proposing universalism, as I think Jesus’ statements about judgement rule that out. But I think people start out spiritually OK, and only as they responsibility reject God are they in trouble. Note that when I say spiritually OK I don’t mean somehow perfect so that they merit salvation. But I think whatever grace God gives children continues until an adult intentionally rejects it. Otherwise we end up with a picture of a God that is prejudiced against adults.

What would you call being severed from GOD as Adam was when he sinned? He knew evil; evil and GOD are incompatible, so GOD handed him over to his new master - sin and death. If not spiritual death, what would you call that?

 

[Blade]

When you take GOD out of the picture.. LOOK AROUND right now.. this is NOT the way it was to be. Cain killed Able....that FALL of man before you knew Christ IS IN YOU. Like it or not agree or not call it false what ever.. its written. Jesus said. you being EVIL..who was He talking to? Know how to give good gifts to your children.

Its in us. Adam and Eve sinned.. Now..ANYTHING born from MAN is born into sin. God told them. They day you eat of this you will die. They got kicked out... before the flood.. every thought of man was evil. Where did ALL that evil come from? Take GOD out of the picture.. This is it. You believe in Christ BORN AGAIN! .. matters not what we personally think. Its HIS RULES. For now..its no long I that sin but sin that is IN ME

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

As I get older I'm getting less and less sympathetic with people who reject evidence in favor of ideology. If it were just Genesis, it would be minimally dangerous. But the same reasoning leads to rejecting global warming, vaccines, and sane economics. Christians should be leaders in accepting truth whereever it leads.

Absolutely, thank you for stating it so well.

 

[Tree of Life]

Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

The President does not make all Americans Republicans, but he represents all Americans. The President of the US represents all his citizens in very important ways.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

No, but he did represent Germany when he was chancellor.

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

Because God chose Adam to be our federal head.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

God chose Christ to represent the new humanity - the elect. You cannot make anyone your representative before God and no one can ordain themselves to this position. Someone has this position simply because God has chosen them for it.

 

[name_is_irrelevant]

You're not responsible for Adam's sin; you were born dead thanks to that sin.

Ok. That's different to what ive heard about how we all sinned 'in Adam'.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

(No connection there, just two examples that came to mind, I hate all politics.)

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

What kind of logic is that? Imputed guilt is what this is called, IIRC.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

Your correct and when something is that unreasonable it's because its false teaching. We are "in" Adam voluntarily. The whole race of mankind, every individual has voluntarily chosen exactly what Adam chose. Adam's sin was much greater because he did in in the face of such a great amount of light. Ours is less because we chose it with little light. Makes sin much worse does not? To know we are in Adam voluntarily rather than involuntarily? To know that God calls, invites every individual personally to get right with him, put our trust in him and we have all refused?

This is the story of every human being that walked the earth at some point in their life. (Except Jesus) Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (restrain) the truth in (by) unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

So what happened to the world when Adam Sinned? Number one he opened the door to Satan's dominion. Still works that way today and it's something Christ came to reverse. 1st John 3:8..... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. What else happened? The physical world began to die which greatly aggravated temptation to sin. There is no such thing as "spiritual death." That is figurative language for being separated from the life of God because of sin. Or as the apostle says. Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Meaning sinners are alive to sin, they live for, their wills are committed to the gratification of the needs and desires of their bodies and minds. Being alive to God though means to be awakened from that voluntary commitment to ones selfish needs and desires and now acutely aware of and reconciled of God and his government though the human spirit. As Jesus said. They that worship him must do so with the truth and with their spirits. (Paraphrase)

What else happened? Well to debunk the false reading of a verse that facilitates the false teachings. The apostle says: Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. That specifically implies learned behavior as you can see it the same Greek word used here. Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles... The Jews of Jesus day were not trained by their culture, their surroundings, their parents, into things like homosexuality like the nations around them that were dominated by it. That is what that verse in Ephesians means.

I could say a lot more but if I answer comments on this I might just use other folks writings. I also have an old audio I made many years ago. I don't enven remember what is on it but since its title is: The Nature of Sin. It's probably about this subject.
http://wordservice.org/Audio/Downloads/The Nature of Sin.mp3

 

[cfyahoo08]

If a plant is genetically modified, all the succeeding plants from that parent plant will be modified, too. Sin is not just an act it is the change in creation physics calls, entropy. The new birth in Christ is not just a belief, it is the replacement of our spirits which will also be manifested in our souls and bodies when Jesus returns. Christianity is not a religion, it is biology.

If a plant is genetically modified the offspring of that plant are separate and individual plants from the parent plant unless it has been cloned from the original plant, in a GREAT deal of cases. If it is grown from seeds, often seeds do not grow to be the exact plant as the parent plant depends on the plant type.

 

[Erik Nelson]

With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam.

Adam is your great great great … great grandfather.

What do you mean, you "don't care" about your deepest human ancestor?

You "have" to care and call him "great... great grandfather".

The good news is you're breathing because of him.

The bad news is you inherited his "legal guilt before God" for disobeying God's command in Eden and(/or) his "depraved" propensity to stray into sin... such that all aware adults "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

The Gospel good news to that is, you can once again re-attain re-atonement with God, through Christ.

 

[name_is_irrelevant]

What do you mean, you "don't care" about your deepest human ancestor?

Because relationships are personal things for me, they're not a matter of bloodline. Even Jesus made the point that his family weren't those simply related to him by lineage. I don't care about genealogy in general, I don't care about who some random guy 300 years ago had sex with or how that genetically links to me. I don't understand people who define themselves that way either, eg my great-great-great-grandfather was a revolutionary / pirate / invented the trombone / was Swedish / whatever. What does that have to do with you? Nothing. You are defined by what you do with your life, not what someone else did with theirs long before you existed. They're not you, nor is there a shred of evidence that you mystically preexisted in them.

 

[Serving Zion]

I don't give any credence to the notion that people are born spiritually alive. By that I mean having a spirit in perfect union with GOD's spirit;

I do!

so spiritual death is separation from GOD's spirit. GOD said that Adam would die in the day he ate of the tree. He didn't die physically, so that must mean that he died spiritually by being exiled from GOD's presence.

I agree with this, except that I say he died before he was exiled. This is why he was hiding from God "I saw that I was naked and I was afraid of you" - he had lost his knowledge of who God is (iow, had fallen into demonic possession) - God is love, he who stays in love stays in God and God in him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is of punishment. The one who fears has not been made perfect in love". (Babies are not born fearing, btw).

I don't think that you can convincingly argue that men are born with a spirit in perfect union with the holy spirit.

I can though. God is love, and a baby is born having perfect love. They suck the breast, they hold your hands, they smile and touch your face. Why don't you tell me the first sin that you have ever seen a baby commit?

It is reasonable, however, to assume that Adam's children would inherit the same nature that he had, which includes a spirit separated from GOD.

It really does depend upon the company they keep (1 Corinthians 15:33).

It's about time for you to produce some scripture to support your position too, btw. I will be looking to see an accurate reading of what was originally written.

 

[Colter]

Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

(No connection there, just two examples that came to mind, I hate all politics.)

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

What kind of logic is that? Imputed guilt is what this is called, IIRC.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

We don't inherit "sin" we inherit a fallen environment. But sin was already on the earth when Adam and Eve incarnate from heaven. They were to be the worlds new spiritual leaders. The "crafty beast" was already fallen, he managed to outflank Eve and compromise their mission which left confusion even up until this very day.

 

[συνείδησις]

It's about time for you to produce some scripture to support your position too, btw. I will be looking to see an accurate reading of what was originally written.

What would you like to see? You've admitted that Adam spiritually died (at least I think you did). How would it be possible for a spiritually dead person to pass along to his offspring a perfect spiritual nature? Scripture witnesses that:

• men are born in sin
• birth itself is spiritually unclean (according to the law)
• children are visited with the iniquities of their fathers to the 4th generation
• children receive spiritual inheritance from their fathers
• children are cut off from the life of GOD at birth (no access to tree of life, which is an analogy for the life of GOD)

I'm sure I can come up with other things with a little thought, but this far outweighs your anecdotal, subjective evidence that babies exist in a state of sinless, spiritual perfection. That is simply opinion with no scriptural support.

 

[AlexDTX]

If a plant is genetically modified the offspring of that plant are separate and individual plants from the parent plant unless it has been cloned from the original plant, in a GREAT deal of cases. If it is grown from seeds, often seeds do not grow to be the exact plant as the parent plant depends on the plant type.

I spoke metaphorically and all metaphors fail in some capacity.

 

[cfyahoo08]

I spoke metaphorically and all metaphors fail in some capacity.

I think it depends a lot on the people receiving the message, sometimes it is not in the delivery but hearer of the word.

James 1:22 King James Version (KJV)

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

This whole thread has been very interesting to read, I am amazed at the amount of spiritual pessimism people have. I believe that God is more loving, kind, compassionate and full of mercy than a lot of people on here do, I think he is much more caring and forgiving that people know, He has infinite love and wants us to be happy and life good lives, but he wants us to want to love him.