How does representation by Adam make any sense?

[name_is_irrelevant]

From that point on everyone who was born was born spiritually dead.

Yes I know this doctrine. I just don't see the logic of being held responsible for someone else's sin.

 

[name_is_irrelevant]

But Trump "Makes America Great Again". = #MAGA.

An American needs to apply and join the Republican Party, in order to be a Republican.

The majority of Germans elected Hitler and his Nazi Party to be their leader and government. The minority who objected had to accept majority rule and its consequences. That is how democracy works. Similarly for when Obama and the Democrats were elected in 2008 and Trump and the Republicans were elected in 2016.
....... IOW, people/voters do not inherit election results, which can change like the tides of the ocean.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Most Afghans are Afghan because their forefathers were Afghans. No.?

If your father is rich, you will also likely remain rich when your father passes away, eg Trump. OTOH, if your father is poor, you will also likely remain poor when your father passes away. We have no say in what things to inherit from our father, whether it be riches or poverty. We can't reject inherited poverty even though we don't like it - if given a choice, most of us would like to be born as Warren Buffett's or Bill Gate's children. All the poor inheritors can do is to improve things for their children, eg by being good and law-abiding people = blessed by God.
....... Similarly, we have no say in our inheritance of Adam's Original Sin(AOS) from our earthly Father and our inheritance of Jesus Christ's Atonement for AOS from our heavenly Father,(ROMANS.5:12) except to meekly accept our inheritance.

OTOH, people cannot vote and elect by majority-rule for whichever theist religions and salvation or reincarnation/rebirth and nirvana/enlightenment or death and nothingness or God vs Satan/mammon. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords isn't elected.

Why are you derailing this thread with politics???

 

[name_is_irrelevant]

Can you tell us who has said that?

It was in some podcast, can't remember which but I think it was about the concept of headship and Christ being the second Adam or something.

 

[cfyahoo08]

Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

(No connection there, just two examples that came to mind, I hate all politics.)

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

What kind of logic is that? Imputed guilt is what this is called, IIRC.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

Deut. 24:16
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

[cfyahoo08]

All men inherit death from Adam (both spiritual and physical). Having a spiritually dead nature prevents perfectly doing the will of GOD, so at some point all men sin.

Deut. 24:16
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

[cfyahoo08]

Adam and Eve are symbolic mythical figures.

http://www.mhrc.net/mitochondrialEve.htm

 

[συνείδησις]

Yes I know this doctrine. I just don't see the logic of being held responsible for someone else's sin.

You're not responsible for Adam's sin; you were born dead thanks to that sin.

 

[συνείδησις]

Deut. 24:16
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

That's referring to the penalty for breaking the law of Moses. Has nothing to do with being born spiritually dead.

 

[cfyahoo08]

That's referring to the penalty for breaking the law of Moses. Has nothing to do with being born spiritually dead.

I don't believe your born spiritually dead. that would be quite sad for all of humanity if that were the case.

 

[JacksBratt]

Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

(No connection there, just two examples that came to mind, I hate all politics.)

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

What kind of logic is that? Imputed guilt is what this is called, IIRC.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

Regardless of whether I think that I am a sinner due to Adam or not.... it is a mute point...

In the end.. whichever way you slice it... I am a sinner. You are a sinner. The guy next to you on the train.. yep... sinner... Every single human that ever walked this earth and breathed the air.... sinner.

Except... Christ.

So, argue all you want about the theology of it all. The metaphors, similes, allegorical scenarios...knock yourself out...
But.. boil it all down and I am a sinner and I am unworthy of heaven. I am a sinner and I don't deserve Christ dying for me...

Well..........He did.... Happy ending.

 

[συνείδησις]

I don't believe your born spiritually dead. that would be quite sad for all of humanity if that were the case.

Of course you were born spiritually dead, i.e., separated from GOD. That's the whole point of the circumcision of Christ, to make us spiritually alive. It is quite sad and hopeless for humanity. That's the whole point. There is only one escape - faith in Christ. Otherwise they are doomed.

 

[cfyahoo08]

Of course you were born spiritually dead, i.e., separated from GOD. That's the whole point of the circumcision of Christ, to make us spiritually alive. It is quite sad and hopeless for humanity. That's the whole point. There is only one escape - faith in Christ. Otherwise they are doomed.

Where are you getting that from ?

 

[Drought of the Heart]

Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

(No connection there, just two examples that came to mind, I hate all politics.)

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

What kind of logic is that? Imputed guilt is what this is called, IIRC.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

God could no longer dewell with humans they are so sinful. Read Romans 3 and 5 , we are just a mess compared to the Most Holy God and to ever think we are not is to call Jesus a liar
Luke 18:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

(No connection there, just two examples that came to mind, I hate all politics.)

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

What kind of logic is that? Imputed guilt is what this is called, IIRC.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

The easy answer is that God informs us of this fact in the Scriptures. Can a sinner give birth to a holy being with the possibility of atoning for all sin?...no that is not possible. Jesus was the only perfect sacrifice. Adam carried around death in his body which only faith in the coming Messiah could atone for...Adam had a disconnect with God which is both written about and illustrated by his banishment from Eden and being sent out from God's presence.

 

[συνείδησις]

Where are you getting that from ?

Where am I getting what from? I said several things.

 

[cfyahoo08]

Where am I getting what from? I said several things.

"Of course you were born spiritually dead"

??

 

[Dkh587]

Deut. 24:16
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Yet David’s son was put to death because of his father’s sin.

Also,

Exodus 20:4-6 NIV

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

[cfyahoo08]

Yet David’s son was put to death because of his father’s sin.

Also,

Exodus 20:4-6 NIV

2 Samuel 12:22-23 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

You don't know that, that is why the child did not live. ?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Somebody had to be first. I'm not symbolic/mythical.

I doubt his name was Adam.

 

[dqhall]

The easy answer is that God informs us of this fact in the Scriptures. Can a sinner give birth to a holy being with the possibility of atoning for all sin?...no that is not possible. Jesus was the only perfect sacrifice. Adam carried around death in his body which only faith in the coming Messiah could atone for...Adam had a disconnect with God which is both written about and illustrated by his banishment from Eden and being sent out from God's presence.

It has not been known that the first humans were ever without sin. History goes back about 5000 years when people started to put crude symbols on clay storage jars to record their contents. Human life began before 5000 years ago.

The Adam and Eve story may be understood allegorically. If you eat from the wrong tree, you might get poisoned and die. If God tells you not to eat that fruit, believe it.