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Featured How does representation by Adam make any sense?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by name_is_irrelevant, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Yes, I did say that I understand Adam died upon the act of disobedience "In Him is life, and the life is the light of mankind" - yet Adam was immediately hiding from God, being the one who John 3:19-21 describes as refusing to go near the light (also think about 1 John 2:11 as it describes those who are manifesting the fruits of the flesh toward their brethren - how did it happen that they once had life in Christ and are now having murder in their heart?).

    What I am showing here, is that the spirit is the expression that manifests through word and deed. What Jesus says about this, is "your eye is the lamp to the body - through which your body becomes full of light. If your eye be complete, then your body is filled with light, but if your eye be evil, then your body is filled with darkness. Moreover, if the light that you think you have is in fact darkness, how deep that darkness!". And I have placed this after the observation of 1 Corinthians 15:33 - that bad company corrupts good morals.

    So we can see in this, that Adam's parenting skills, having been demonic, have spread the death to his offspring. This is how children are also provoked to act contrary to their true nature (as we are all so tempted from time to time - some rightly, some wrongly, some easier than others).

    Yes I am aware of this verse, and it's common misapplication to demonise children. I have identified in this that the psalmist shows he was shaped in iniquity and his mother was sinning when she conceived him. But, this does not support the idea that you have, to say that because his mother was sinning when she conceived him, that he is somehow guilty of sin (as I do not believe a just judge would consider a yet unconceived person as being responsible for his mother's sin - unless you might think otherwise?).

    I cannot see anything in this that implies that the child becomes defiled by it, only that the mother must attend to her own purification.
    The emphasis in this verse is that the one who sins will see the result of his sin in his seed, their seed and even the seed of them and the seed of them! (Moses quickly fell in reverence when he realised that, btw).

    The emphasis here, (in a Jewish sense as they were - a family where the children serve to support the father's estate), is that we will never escape His judgement. This is indeed a burden to bear, but in no way can be said to show that a baby is born of any less it's spiritual nature owing to the sin that his father has committed, or that the child is responsible for the father's transgression - rather, as I explained, the fallen one will see a world reflecting the judgement toward him - if it be praise then praise, but even condemnation through the wrath of the indignation of God's judgement.
    This remains an unsubstantiated claim until scriptural evidence is provided, and as you have said in post #100 that you will not gather the scripture that you have in mind, then I will refer to post #89 wherein I have explained that I contest this idea through the observation in Genesis 3:14-19: "they were cursed individually based upon their own actions. It is not said that the curse was intended to apply to any other person".

    I also note that this is not complying with the rules of this forum as found here: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/general-theology-statement-of-purpose.7780354/

    When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.
    As I have explained, I do not see that the tree of life is the source of the spiritual life, because I have shown that the spiritual life was already taken from Adam and Eve before they were exiled from the tree of life. But, if you wish to contend this, I will look to understand what you think the tree of life is today, that you assume a Christian has access to it when they have been born again, and then to find why you think a child doesn't also have access to it in the same way in their age of innocence.
    I must encourage you to treat this more seriously (consider Matthew 18:18 for instance).
    You have made a mistake to say this (eg: Proverbs 18:13). If you think that anything I have said does not have scriptural support, please highlight those particular comments and I will present scripture to support the view or explain otherwise how I might escape conceding your point.

    Thank you for your assistance to establish this matter, and please do take your time, don't rush or feel obligated to defend a doctrine that you did not make.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  2. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    Anything that touched her blood was unclean.So children are unclean from birth.
     
  3. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Even Jesus Christ?
     
  4. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    I'm done with this conversation. Have a nice day.
     
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  5. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It's important to understand what unclean meant in the OT. It was a ritual judgement, not a moral one. Holy things are separate and shouldn't mix with other things. Birth and sex are holy things. When you touch them you need to be cleaned before you can touch normal things. This does *not* mean that babies are morally unclean.
     
  6. συνείδησις

    συνείδησις ¿uo buıob sı ʇɐɥʍ

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    That doesn't jive because a woman wasn't to go near the temple when she was unclean. If she was holy that wouldn't have been a problem.
     
  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    My impression is that when Adam and Eve took the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil their DNA was altered and this verse became at least somewhat relevant to all of us:

    John 8:44

    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
     
  8. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    John 8:44 is speaking of people who rejected Jesus.
     
  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    True...... but some of them might have accepted Yeshua as Messiah within ten to twenty years....... but it is good to understand how serious our unsaved condition really is.
     
  10. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Do you have any evidence to support this?
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Jesus parents, Joseph (assumed to be His father) and Mary,
    satisfied all the TORAH requirements to be clean according to TORAH,
    as they also did for Jesus, as did Jesus throughout His Life.
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    That impression came from the enemy, and so far has successfully deceived everyone who believes it; likewise everything behind the beast system that has been promoting and selling and using so-called 'dna' (man's garbage knowledge) AGAINST JESUS' people.
     
  13. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    You haven't been following the conversation. Your comment is not relevant.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    http://msv.wpengine.com/jump-line/

     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    The same way people post believing false doctrine, they having trusted someone that misled them, cannot (I think) be debated in GT.

    Which babies are born unclean, vs babies born clean, according to Scripture in line with GT ?
     
  16. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Hmmm, I was not able to find any evidence for his claim that the DNA has been altered, do you know where that has been published?
    The grammar is so bad in this, I cannot make sense of it.
     
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  17. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They were real people, the genealogy in the Bible is 100 percent accurate. The Cohan gene is an example of this.
     
  18. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you want to know about DNA you should study up on Frances Collins. He wrote the book the language of God and the language of life. Right now there are countries where the average age is 90 and the Bible says during the 1,000 year reign of Christ the average age will be 100. They are talking about being able to cure a lot of Genetic disease so people will live longer.
     
  19. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What was altered was the frontal lobe in the brain. This is the part of the brain where we decide between good and evil --- right and wrong. The brain of humans around 6,000 years ago evolved so that we are more advanced than the animals that do not have the ability to make choices the way we do. This is the beginning of recorded history and civilization.
     
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